Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[Sufjon]

Hi Rinnie: I have a few comments and a few questions if I may:

Christian Prayer always involves mind and heart.
Mind emptying techniques are not Christian Prayers.

Some empty the mind to find the heart. This does not mean that the mind is not active. When the mind is emptied of the chatter of day to day cares, it can focus on the heart. This is part of what TM does. Hindus use it to connect with the heart and with God. If an atheist uses it for connecting with his or her heart and for inner peace, I think we should respect that. I also respect and am grateful that AntiTheist has shared something with us that has meaning to him. If your Pope tells you to stay away from it, then you should do as your Pope says.

The True Self is not God.

Can you tell me what your thoughts are on what the True Self is?

Involvement in the occult practices in Deut:18 is grave sin.

I read Deuteronomy a few times. Quite an interesting book. Just curious, since you quoted from that book, do you follow the laws and conventions in that book?

Hinduism, Zen Buddhism and New age do not mix with the Catholic Faith.

I have had that term New Age used to describe my faith many times on this forum, and each time I find it most curious. The Catholic faith came many years after Hinduism and Buddhism. Can you tell me why the new church calls the old ones new?
Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie: I have a few comments and a few questions if I may:

Some empty the mind to find the heart. This does not mean that the mind is not active. When the mind is emptied of the chatter of day to day cares, it can focus on the heart. This is part of what TM does. Hindus use it to connect with the heart and with God. If an atheist uses it for connecting with his or her heart and for inner peace, I think we should respect that. I also respect and am grateful that AntiTheist has shared something with us that has meaning to him. If your Pope tells you to stay away from it, then you should do as your Pope says.

Can you tell me what your thoughts are on what the True Self is?

I read Deuteronomy a few times. Quite an interesting book. Just curious, since you quoted from that book, do you follow the laws and conventions in that book?

I have had that term New Age used to describe my faith many times on this forum, and each time I find it most curious. The Catholic faith came many years after Hinduism and Buddhism. Can you tell me why the new church calls the old ones new?
Your friend,
Sufjon

Boy you are keeping me busy

Okay to begin with your true self is not God. So lets say I am searching Truth. What is truth. Scripture tells us I am the way, the truth and the life, NO MAN comes to the Father but by me.

Now I AM isn’t me buddy. I AM is God.

Okay to make it short No way can we find truth without God. I do not have the truth within myself WITHOUT God. The Truth is a divinely revealed reality of the Father manifested in the Person and the Works of Jesus Christ.

So for me to sit down (quiet time) and find the truth within myself, how is that possible? God the Father revealed to us the truth in the Person of Christ. He is who taught us what the truth is.

Without the teaching’s of Christ I would not have a clue what the truth was, alone to even try to begin to live it.

I do not have the knowledge of Christ. Be right back!!

 

[bigquests]

I cannot believe this thread. The OP starts out describing Zen meditation, a method to clear the mind and assist people to focus on and live in the present.

Period.

What ensues? Accusations, misunderstandings, simplifications, abjurations. Attacks. Claptrap.

The usual ridicule reserved for anything which isn’t considered to be ‘acceptable’-to be New Age, not mainstream Catholicism, (read traditional Catholicism), something with which the posters are not familiar, have heard something about, are suspicious of, haven’t bothered to learn about. You name it.

The OP was about Zen meditation. Period. Zen has nothing to do with ‘religion’. Take it or leave it. If you insist on telling us why you’re leaving it, don’t. It doesn’t matter.

 

[Sufjon]

Okay to begin with your true self is not God. So lets say I am searching Truth. What is truth. Scripture tells us I am the way, the truth and the life, NO MAN comes to the Father but by me.

Thanks for the reply. So in your faith, He is not in you and all around you? He is not in others? If you were to look within yourself, you would not see Him? Where is He? What did He mean when He said: "for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ If no one comes to Father except through Him, then it appears that one must look to see Him in others to come to the Father, for without finding Him, one cannot come to Him. It looks as though He told you where to find Him - in others. And if He is in others, He must be in you as well. It follows that you must then also look within. Is it not true?

If not. what do you imagine He might have been saying?

Now I AM isn’t me buddy. I AM is God.

I Am is God, and did I Am say somewhere that He is not within you and others? Do your scriptures not say you are Gods? Did Christ not tell the priests that they were as well when they accused Him of saying that He was God by quoting that same psalm? What do you suppose He meant by that?

Okay to make it short No way can we find truth without God. I do not have the truth within myself WITHOUT God. The Truth is a divinely revealed reality of the Father manifested in the Person and the Works of Jesus Christ.

I agree that you have no truth within you without God, but do you not have God within you, and therefore able to seek Him and the truth within?

So for me to sit down (quiet time) and find the truth within myself, how is that possible? God the Father revealed to us the truth in the Person of Christ. He is who taught us what the truth is.

Because He is in you. “Be still, and know that I am.”

I do not have the knowledge of Christ. Be right back!!

But He did tell you what you need to know.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie: I have a few comments and a few questions if I may:

Some empty the mind to find the heart. This does not mean that the mind is not active. When the mind is emptied of the chatter of day to day cares, it can focus on the heart. This is part of what TM does. Hindus use it to connect with the heart and with God. If an atheist uses it for connecting with his or her heart and for inner peace, I think we should respect that. I also respect and am grateful that AntiTheist has shared something with us that has meaning to him. If your Pope tells you to stay away from it, then you should do as your Pope says.

Can you tell me what your thoughts are on what the True Self is?

I read Deuteronomy a few times. Quite an interesting book. Just curious, since you quoted from that book, do you follow the laws and conventions in that book?

I have had that term New Age used to describe my faith many times on this forum, and each time I find it most curious. The Catholic faith came many years after Hinduism and Buddhism. Can you tell me why the new church calls the old ones new?
Your friend,
Sufjon

If you want to meditate we are taught to meditate on the Passion of our Lord, practice Virtues, and ask HIM to take us to authentic Conteplation someday if HE so desires. HE is the Truth, the way and the life. Not us. SO if we are to empy our minds and not concentrate on Christ to bring us to truth, then we have rely on ourself to find it w/o Christ. That is just not possible.

Now Deut. 6:14 You shall not follow false gods such as the surrounding nations. It ties into Ex. 20:3 You shall not have gods before me. Yes we will always follow the ten commandments of God. Jesus did not change the O.T he fulfilled it. If you really read the O.T it prepares you for the comming of Christ.

Next the reason it is called New Age is because Retreat Centers etc call it that. They are the ones who call these Religions New Age. Why I do not know myself. Here are some the the Religions that are called new age.

Again they call them New age, but what they really are:

Hinduism, Yoga, Aen Buddhism, Enneargram, Wicca, the higher self, the true self, the god within, TM.

The reason is because if they were up front alot of People would not attend.

Alot of times they try to draw in Catholic’s telling them this is a way to become stronger in the faith, etc. So People fall for this and then they say you see, we are just like the Catholic faith, etc. Because they begin by showing things we do have in common, and forget to explain what we don’t.

Like you asked me what is your inner self. That is a trick question. What my inners self is not where the inner truth lies. See what I am saying, Because if the truth is within myself then I am also God. If I find any truth within my self it is BECAUSE of God not myself. This is the way to confuse people of the Catholic faith who really do not know their faith. But then again there are others who do know their faith quite well, and are also deceived.

Like the Hindu view of God is Contrary to the Christian belief. They do not worship GOD who is Superior to them, they believe that they bcome god like a raindrop into a ocean.

Well see thats not going to work.

Like we are taught to become Christ Like. DOes that mean to become a god, or become God Absolutely not! To become Christ like is to understand his teachings and try to imitate him the best that we can, and to do his work according to the grace given to us by him. But see we have NO power without God. All that is good comes from him, not from oneself.

Why they do not just say this is Buddhism or Hindu, is because a Christian knows that this is not following the word of Jesus Christ. So they use New age, all kinds of words because the occult would be a dead give away for a Christian to stay away.

It is sad what extremes that will go to, just to hide the truth. Like yoga the exercises in itself is not bad. But the music, etc kind of drags people in somehow. Then its come to our meetings etc. Go figure.

But I have much respect for you, and I will tell you why. You are not a Catholic, but you said that a Catholic should listen to their Pope. I thank-you for that message! I can tell that even though we are not of the same faith, you are a very good person. Again, thank-you very much for sending such a strong message to all Catholics. They could learn so much from that message.

And just one other thing, about the O.T. You have to understand there is the New law and the Old Law. Its off topic, but if you start a new thread on the Ol and the NL it could be explained to you better. God Bless you!

 

[rinnie]

Thanks for the reply. So in your faith, He is not in you and all around you? He is not in others? If you were to look within yourself, you would not see Him? Where is He? What did He mean when He said: "for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ If no one comes to Father except through Him, then it appears that one must look to see Him in others to come to the Father, for without finding Him, one cannot come to Him. It looks as though He told you where to find Him - in others. And if He is in others, He must be in you as well. It follows that you must then also look within. Is it not true?

If not. what do you imagine He might have been saying?

I Am is God, and did I Am say somewhere that He is not within you and others? Do your scriptures not say you are Gods? Did Christ not tell the priests that they were as well when they accused Him of saying that He was God by quoting that same psalm? What do you suppose He meant by that?

I agree that you have no truth within you without God, but do you not have God within you, and therefore able to seek Him and the truth within?

Because He is in you. “Be still, and know that I am.”

But He did tell you what you need to know.

Your friend,
Sufjon

Yes he did tell us all we need to know. He told us to follow his truth. But to find the truth inside myself is not possible with/o his grace.

The only truth that I have that is in me is the truth of Christ. I agree with that. But without his truth I have no truth. There is no My Truth.

But if his truth dwells in me, then there is no reason for me to sit down and try to find it. I am given the grace to Live it. I do not have to look for him, it would be poured out before me with his grace.

No God never said that we are gods. When he said when I was hungry you gave me to eat, etc. he is not saying we are god. He is saying what you do for your sister and brother you do for me.

Anotherwards what you do for others, you are also doing for God. But doing things for others and for God does not make you God. There is only one God.

WHen we have God within us, it does not make us God, it makes us use the Grace of God. Gods grace is a free gift to move us to do what is right and pleasing to him. But his grace is a free gift that we can use by our free will or throw away. But the more we use his grace the more we are given. But because we have grace from God does not make us God.

 

[Sufjon]

If you want to meditate we are taught to meditate on the Passion of our Lord, practice Virtues, and ask HIM to take us to authentic Conteplation someday if HE so desires. HE is the Truth, the way and the life. Not us. SO if we are to empy our minds and not concentrate on Christ to bring us to truth, then we have rely on ourself to find it w/o Christ. That is just not possible.

Sure it’s possible. He’s in you.

Next the reason it is called New Age is because Retreat Centers etc call it that. They are the ones who call these Religions New Age. Why I do not know myself. Here are some the the Religions that are called new age.

Again they call them New age, but what they really are:

Hinduism, Yoga, Aen Buddhism, Enneargram, Wicca, the higher self, the true self, the god within, TM.

The reason is because if they were up front alot of People would not attend.

I can’t speak for all those religions, but Hindus normally don’t look for converts. Hindu scriptures specifically say not to

Alot of times they try to draw in Catholic’s telling them this is a way to become stronger in the faith, etc. So People fall for this and then they say you see, we are just like the Catholic faith, etc. Because they begin by showing things we do have in common, and forget to explain what we don’t.

Like you asked me what is your inner self. That is a trick question. What my inners self is not where the inner truth lies. See what I am saying, Because if the truth is within myself then I am also God. If I find any truth within my self it is BECAUSE of God not myself. This is the way to confuse people of the Catholic faith who really do not know their faith. But then again there are others who do know their faith quite well, and are also deceived.

Read my last post about what Jesus said. I think He was clear on who He is and where He is. Is He not in you when you take the Eucharist? Is this just merging of bodies and that’s all, or is this some sort of realization of the Christ being in you? If it;s just you body and His, are your inner beings never to be one?Just you bodies?

Like the Hindu view of God is Contrary to the Christian belief. They do not worship GOD who is Superior to them, they believe that they bcome god like a raindrop into a ocean.

Agreed.

Well see thats not going to work.

Like we are taught to become Christ Like. DOes that mean to become a god, or become God Absolutely not! To become Christ like is to understand his teachings and try to imitate him the best that we can, and to do his work according to the grace given to us by him. But see we have NO power without God. All that is good comes from him, not from oneself.

Again, read my last reply.

Why they do not just say this is Buddhism or Hindu, is because a Christian knows that this is not following the word of Jesus Christ. So they use New age, all kinds of words because the occult would be a dead give away for a Christian to stay away.

It is sad what extremes that will go to, just to hide the truth. Like yoga the exercises in itself is not bad. But the music, etc kind of drags people in somehow. Then its come to our meetings etc. Go figure.

But I have much respect for you, and I will tell you why. You are not a Catholic, but you said that a Catholic should listen to their Pope. I thank-you for that message! I can tell that even though we are not of the same faith, you are a very good person. Again, thank-you very much for sending such a strong message to all Catholics. They could learn so much from that message.

And just one other thing, about the O.T. You have to understand there is the New law and the Old Law. Its off topic, but if you start a new thread on the Ol and the NL it could be explained to you better. God Bless you!

Well, there’s a lot in here, but I can tell you that Hindus don’t look for Christians to become Hindus. I have made that clear to anyone I have spoken to on this forum. I always say to stick to your faiths. You have some westerners and maybe a few Indians running around the west selling ideas, but this is not Hindu philosophy to do so. I of course know many a Hindu. None of us call ourselves “New Age” nor have we called ourselves anything but Hindus. True Hinduism does not call for Christians or Muslims or Jews or anyone else to become Hindus. We believe you will all find God, so there is no need to interfere. Likening all of Hinduism to such snake oil peddlers is just as unfair as it would be for me to tell you that all Christians are fake healers like the ones I see on TV all the time. I know these people are not representative of all Christianity. They are salesmen. They have an agenda.

Anyway, you believe that you and God are separate, so separate you will be! I have no interest in changing that.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[rinnie]

I think the what makes our faiths so different is we know that we will never become God or even close to him.

God is perfect. God is above all.

Here is something you must understand, yes we receive the Living Christ in the Eucharist. But we can do it every single day of our lives, it does not make us Him.

There is only ONE GOD in the Catholic faith. We would never want to be God. We live to someday be lucky enough to live with him in heaven and see him face to face.

Because Gods Spirit can dwell in us by his grace, by no means makes us equal to him. Even the Pope who is the head of his Church would not even come close to being God.

Because Christ CAN dwell in us with his grace, we would never say that we are god. Or even close to being gods. The word of God has never taught this.

No one can be equal to him. Never Ever. No one has the goodness and wisdom of him, and never will. IF we were to be equal to God then we would be breaking the Commandment of God. We would make ourself a god and put ourself before him. That is unacceptable to God.

If we were gods ourself why would we need his grace? We wouldn’t. Why would we need the Eucharist? we wouldn’t! Why would we need the Sacraments? We wouldn’t!

But because we are not gods and never will be we worship the One and Only God. Our Lord and Savior.

We need the sacraments to save us, the Sacraments are given to us because of his grace and love for us. The Eucharist is a Sacrament, an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace. Again to give Grace is not to make us a god. Good night my dear, It was great talking to you. And thank-you for being so very honest.

 

[Cecilianus]

Rinnie: “New Age” usually refers to degraded and perverted modernizations and Westernizations of poorly digested Oriental “paths”, as well as occult practices such as astral projection and astrology. Theosophy, Wicca, the enneagram, Scientology, and centering prayer are accurately described as “New Age”; authentic Hinduism and Buddhism like you would find in Asia are not.

Rinnie and Sufjon: Christianity strongly emphasizes the reality and goodness of maya, even to the point where God Himself became incarnate, taking on the fullness of human nature. Hinduism strongly emphasizes the reality of God, compared to which the created universe is said to be “illusion” (although actually only Shankara goes so far as to actually say this, I think - right, Sufjon?). For Hinduism, our reality comes from God; we therefore say that our true reality or our true being (atman) is God. This is NOT pantheism, properly understood (and when I say “properly understood” I mean I am disagreeing with those schools within Hinduism that do take a pantheistic interpretation - Hinduism is by no means a monolithic doctrine). The Munduk-Upanisad speaks of God and the soul (hamsa, if I remember correctly in this case) as being “two birds in one tree”. I think this is wrong because it fails to do justice to psychosomatic unity (the soul is not a resident of the body - they are both different ways of looking at or speaking about a single person, not two different substances). But the unreality of the ego and the reality of God are very clear in Hinduism. I don’t believe Hindus are really saying anything other than what Christians and Sufis say - the terminology is just misleading in the West (hence the “New Age” deviations).

For Christianity, God creates and sustains us in one act - we have no independent being which is not a participation of His. Meister Eckhart (who, as has already been noted, sometimes used unorthodox phrasing in his efforts to describe ineffable mysteries) said that we should really use the term “exist” as a transitive verb - God “exists” us. St. Thomas Aquinas spoke of God being present everywhere by essence, presence, and power, and God is especially present in the human soul in a stronger way than in inanimate nature. We are made in His image. Sufjon mentioned the “heart” or nous. The heart is the faculty by which we pray and by which we love, and by which we know God - a central concept in Eastern Christian spirituality (at least in my Byzantine rite; I can’t speak for the Oriental Orthodox and Catholics). The heart is like a mirror of God; you could translate it into Latin as intellectus as opposed to ratio. And because God created us in His image, if you delve into your heart you will find Him; hence the Hindu statements about atman. This is especially true once one has been divinized by the Holy Mysteries (the Sacraments, in your terminology) by theosis, because God will then be present not only in a natural way but in a supernatural way. God’s energies (using the term in the Greek sense, which is not necessarily quite the same as the Sanskrit) permeate the entire universe in a manner true enough to speak of God as our “true Self” once we stop using the term “Self” to mean ourselves (why I don’t think it’s proper to do so in English or in the West, outside of its cultural context). For us as Christians the term atman is even infinitely more appropriate, because we become God by grace.

(As does anyone who is sanctified by divine grace, who by virtue of that fact is a Christian. I know where the Church is - I don’t know where it isn’t. The writers of the Hindu scriptures may have been united to Christ in a manner more deeply than I will ever be able to imagine, for all I know. And I’m not engaging in religious triumphalism here - “they thought they were Hindu but were really looking for Christ” - because I do honestly believe that Jesus Christ is consubstantial with God the Father or Brahman regardless of whether anyone believes it or even regardless as to whether there is anyone around to believe it, and therefore anyone who is united to God is done so through Him.)

And Rinnie, both the Psalms and the Church Fathers do speak of us as “gods”. The slogan of Orthodoxy against the Arian heresy is that “God became man so that men might become gods” (the words of St. Athanasios the Great). What this means of course is that we “partake of the divine nature” (1 Peter 3:15) through the Incarnation of Christ where God became Man (“not by the conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by the assumption of the Manhood into God”). Christianity makes an even stronger claim than Hinduism does, because we do not just let ourselves disappear to find God in us (to see through the illusion of maya so to speak), but rather it is our very individual selves (which ARE maya) which participate in the divine nature. It’s really a very scandalous mystery - like the Trinity.

Simple imitation of righteousness without any change - becoming a “new man” and setting the old Adam aside, really becoming sons of God - is the Lutheran heresy. The deepest divergence between Catholicism and Protestantism is the Protestant rejection of theosis; for Luther grace is simply imputed righteousness - snow covering the dung of man’s sin. For us, it transforms our very being and makes us sons of God.

Needless to say, there is nothing pantheistic in the idea of theosis. Sufjon, when Catholics strongly emphasize the otherness of God, it is due to a wish to avoid the error of pantheism - and we are correct in doing so. Hinduism avoids pantheism by using language and praxis leaning towards acosmism; we are different because we really do look at the reality of created things considered separately from God even while we acknowledge that all being is a participation in God.

 

[Cecilianus]

Sorry for the long post. I tend to ramble.

 

[Sufjon]

Sorry for the long post. I tend to ramble.

Hi Cecilianus: It is rather off balance I suppose to respond to such a long post with such a short one, but I simply don’t find any points on which I would disagree with what you have said.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

I think the what makes our faiths so different is we know that we will never become God or even close to him.

God is perfect. God is above all.

Here is something you must understand, yes we receive the Living Christ in the Eucharist. But we can do it every single day of our lives, it does not make us Him.

There is only ONE GOD in the Catholic faith. We would never want to be God. We live to someday be lucky enough to live with him in heaven and see him face to face.

Because Gods Spirit can dwell in us by his grace, by no means makes us equal to him. Even the Pope who is the head of his Church would not even come close to being God.

Because Christ CAN dwell in us with his grace, we would never say that we are god. Or even close to being gods. The word of God has never taught this.

No one can be equal to him. Never Ever. No one has the goodness and wisdom of him, and never will. IF we were to be equal to God then we would be breaking the Commandment of God. We would make ourself a god and put ourself before him. That is unacceptable to God.

If we were gods ourself why would we need his grace? We wouldn’t. Why would we need the Eucharist? we wouldn’t! Why would we need the Sacraments? We wouldn’t!

But because we are not gods and never will be we worship the One and Only God. Our Lord and Savior.

We need the sacraments to save us, the Sacraments are given to us because of his grace and love for us. The Eucharist is a Sacrament, an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace. Again to give Grace is not to make us a god. Good night my dear, It was great talking to you. And thank-you for being so very honest.

Dear Rinnie: I understand this is what you believe. I read your same scriptures and I see something much different than what you are describing. I think you are not understanding much of what I am saying, but what you believe is fine. I have not said that you are a fully realized incarnation of God, I have simply said that you are an inextricable part of Him, as is the case with every creature and of course the universe in itself. It is one big organism, of which we are components. That organism has many parts, but at it’s core, it is one.

I do think your sacrament of the Eucharist has a much larger meaning than what you have described, but any value you see in it is value nonetheless. It has meaning to you, and this is the way in which Rinnie approaches God. I am not one to tamper with that. Your are of infinite worth to God and your faith is sacred. It is even fuller still when you in turn can see that in me as well.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie: "

Rinnie

And Rinnie, both the Psalms and the Church Fathers do speak of us as “gods”. The slogan of Orthodoxy against the Arian heresy is that “God became man so that men might become gods” (the words of St. Athanasios the Great). What this means of course is that we “partake of the divine nature” (1 Peter 3:15) through the Incarnation of Christ where God became Man (“not by the conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by the assumption of the Manhood into God”). Christianity makes an even stronger claim than Hinduism does, because we do not just let ourselves disappear to find God in us (to see through the illusion of maya so to speak), but rather it is our very individual selves (which ARE maya) which participate in the divine nature. It’s really a very scandalous mystery - like the Trinity.

Simple imitation of righteousness without any change - becoming a “new man” and setting the old Adam aside, really becoming sons of God - is the Lutheran heresy. The deepest divergence between Catholicism and Protestantism is the Protestant rejection of theosis; for Luther grace is simply imputed righteousness - snow covering the dung of man’s sin. For us, it transforms our very being and makes us sons of God.

Needless to say, there is nothing pantheistic in the idea of theosis. Sufjon, when Catholics strongly emphasize the otherness of God, it is due to a wish to avoid the error of pantheism - and we are correct in doing so. Hinduism avoids pantheism by using language and praxis leaning towards acosmism; we are different because we really do look at the reality of created things considered separately from God even while we acknowledge that all being is a participation in God.

But here is where we have to come to some kind of understanding here. The scripture never tells us that we are Equal to God, or can become God.

In Hinduism they do not worship GOD who is SUPREME to them, they believe that they can become god. Do you see the problem here?

In 1 Peter 13-22 It is talking about how the Righteous (Christ) saved the unrighteous (US). Christ gives us Baptism to cleanse us from our sin, but this in no way makes us God. When we are to sanctify Christ as our Lord that does not mean we are equal to him, it means that we are to rejoice in our suffering because of our hope in Christ.

Go back and read that whole scripture, It tells you when we are righteous in the eyes of the Lord and suffer because of it, not to have any fear, because the hope that we have in Christ will overcome our fear.

Please go back to the beginning of time. What do you think caused the original fall of man. Why do you think that Eve ate the fruit. What did the devil tell her. Let me repeat it to you. You will be LIKE GOD.

Adam and Eve chose to love themselves more then God. Do you not see how not obeying God and commiting a sin they were thrown out of the garden of eden?

By eating the forbidden fruit we now have death, If we were equal to God there would be no death. We had to wait for God to send his Son to come back and take away death. But by that sin there is death of the body, and by Gods grace we have eternal life of the Soul.

God created Man and women in his image, the image of God not only means that each of them individuallly is like God, as a rational and free being. It also means that they were created as a unity of the 2 in their common humanity are called to live in COMMUNION of Love and in this way we mirror in the wrold the communion of love that is in God through which the 3 person love one another in the intimate mystery of the ONE DIVINE LIFE. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

When God created Man it was according to the purpose of HIS WILL. Man lost his likeness to God through SIn, Can you not see that. Even though man remains an image of his creator, and retains the desire for the one who calls him into existance. All Religions bear witness to mens essential search for God. Acts 17:27)

We were never put here to be God. We were put here to do GODS WILL. If we were to turn into God ourself, then why would we be put here to do his will and not our will. We are called to put GODS will above our own will. And God gave us the FREE WILL to either obey his commands and do his works Good works, and have eternal life in him or to disobey his will and do evil works and have eternal death apart from him.

If we are gods why would we be judged on the last day? If we were GOD we would be perfect. But we are not perfect. Because to be perfect we can never sin. Can you say that you have never sinned, or can you promise you can never sin, I don’t think so!!

 

[rinnie]

Dear Rinnie: I understand this is what you believe. I read your same scriptures and I see something much different than what you are describing. I think you are not understanding much of what I am saying, but what you believe is fine. I have not said that you are a fully realized incarnation of God, I have simply said that you are an inextricable part of Him, as is the case with every creature and of course the universe in itself. It is one big organism, of which we are components. That organism has many parts, but at it’s core, it is one.

I do think your sacrament of the Eucharist has a much larger meaning than what you have described, but any value you see in it is value nonetheless. It has meaning to you, and this is the way in which Rinnie approaches God. I am not one to tamper with that. Your are of infinite worth to God and your faith is sacred. It is even fuller still when you in turn can see that in me as well.

Your friend
Sufjon

Thank-you my friend. But you must remember I understand you read the scripture. Please realize I do not underestimate the Power of the Eucharist. It is the whole core of my being.

But the Eucharist is what feels me with the Grace to Do the work of Christ, not become him. Again we can never be equal to God. No where in scripture does it state we are EQUAL to God. We are called to imitate him in all we do. But we are not called to become equal to him.

When we receive the Eucharist we become ONE IN him, and WITH HIM. That means we receive Grace to turn away from sin and become more like him. When we do his works we open ourself up to him, to let him live through us. To use our living body as a means to do his work.

But we can still fail, and sin, and turn away from him also. But that is the difference between us and God, God never turns away from us, we turn away from him.

 

[Cecilianus]

Dear Rinnie: I understand this is what you believe. I read your same scriptures and I see something much different than what you are describing. I think you are not understanding much of what I am saying, but what you believe is fine. I have not said that you are a fully realized incarnation of God, I have simply said that you are an inextricable part of Him, as is the case with every creature and of course the universe in itself. It is one big organism, of which we are components. That organism has many parts, but at it’s core, it is one.

Your friend
Sufjon

Here I do disagree with your wording. We are not “parts” of God, because God is simple and spiritual. For God to be composed of physical parts like an animal would violate His perfection, transcendence, and the ineffability of nirguna Brahman. Rather, we on our own have no being from ourselves at all, and we “participate” in the being of God, as little nothings that God chose to reflect Himself in. Maya is really the best word to describe what I’m trying to say here.

I’m not being very clear - sorry. God in Himself has the fullness of His being, irregardless of and independent of my illusory being. I, like a mirror, reflect the infinite Being of God in my own finite way. But I certainly wouldn’t use the term “part”, because God was in no way diminished before He created the universe. In Hindu terms, Brahman does not cease to be God when He wakes from His dream.

 

[Cecilianus]

In Hinduism they do not worship GOD who is SUPREME to them, they believe that they can become god. Do you see the problem here?

This is not an accurate understanding of Hinduism. Hindus do worship the supreme God, and they do not believe that their finite, individual selves (their jiva) can become God - rather, they must see through the illusion of their egoes in order to reach Him. He is their true Self, or in Al-Hallaj’s words “My ‘I’ is God”, but they have to die to themselves in order to see Him.

 

[rinnie]

This is not an accurate understanding of Hinduism. Hindus do worship the supreme God, and they do not believe that their finite, individual selves (their jiva) can become God - rather, they must see through the illusion of their egoes in order to reach Him. He is their true Self, or in Al-Hallaj’s words “My ‘I’ is God”, but they have to die to themselves in order to see Him.

Read post 107 it was agreed that this is indeed the teaching of Hinduism.

 

[Cecilianus]

Read post 107 it was agreed that this is indeed the teaching of Hinduism.

There’s a difference from being separate from God and being identical to Him, though I would say the terms are ambiguous enough that one really can say in one sense that we are separate from Him and say in another sense that we are not.

To be separated from God in one sense is to be in mortal sin, though even this is not a complete separation because He still preserves us in being. Such a complete separation is impossible. (As the Psalm says, in my paraphrase thanks to poor memory, even when we descend to Hell God is still there with us - and many of the saints such as Blessed Juliana of Norwich tell us that the pain of Hell is nothing other than God’s unrelenting and unreciprocated love for us.) Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa spoke of God as “not-other”, though (like Eckhart) Cusanus sometimes used language that has to be understood carefully in order to remain orthodox. My favorite way of expressing this truth is an Islamic hadith that Peter Kreeft likes to quote a lot: God is closer to man than his jugular vein.

Of course, the idea of being “separate” from God could just mean that you are just a creature and not the Creator, that you are not identical to each other. That’s a truth you have to have pounded into you so hard that it becomes undoubtable and unforgettable before you start venturing into the somewhat more dangerous waters of mysticism; otherwise you risk committing idolatry. I think one very good reason Hindus and some Christian mystics (Eckhart, Cusanus) like to avoid saying that God is different from us, however, is that we do not want to make God one (very powerful) being among other beings, as if we could be placed in the same genus as God. (God is sui generis.) God is not a being in the orthodox Christian conception; He is Being itself (ipsum esse). Furthermore, He is our being. (I won’t get into the distinctions as to whether He is our being essentially or in some other manner, because I don’t remember the answer St. Thomas gives. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t essentially, because then we would be God, and to say that He is our being accidentally makes no sense since God has no accidents. In the East we say that we are created by the energies of God, but it would also be a heresy to say that we are the energies of God since they are uncreated and eternal, so I’m not quite sure what the correct answer would be there either.)

 

[Sufjon]

This is not an accurate understanding of Hinduism. Hindus do worship the supreme God, and they do not believe that their finite, individual selves (their jiva) can become God - rather, they must see through the illusion of their egoes in order to reach Him. He is their true Self, or in Al-Hallaj’s words “My ‘I’ is God”, but they have to die to themselves in order to see Him.

Hi Cecilianus;: What you are saying is very true, but it gets a bit tricky in that what Rinnie said is also true when he mentioned drops of water and the ocean. While an individual jiva may exist in a manner like a drop of water. if you place that drop back in the ocean, there is only ocean. We would maintain that every drop eventually goes back to the ocean.

The term worship is rather tricky in the context of Hinduism as well. We see it more as devotion to someone you love dearly, rather than worship. It’s not really worship as I see it in the context used by Christians. The reverence with which I think of Krishna or Jesus
is a form of reverence born purely of adoration. That adoration builds as you see them in the people around you. When you see them in your children, you add that dimension to your love of God. Likewise when you see them in your wife or husband, another aspect is added. The more you start loving other people, the more ways you start loving God.The more you love God, the more people you start to love. These different forms of love have a sort of kinetic effect on each other. You no longer have any expectation of reward or fear of punishment. It is love for the sake of love. You get to the point where you can say to Jesus: “you can keep your heaven - I just want you. If you are in heaven, then that’s where I want to be. Anyplace else you happen to be is fine too.” There’s where the expectations start to go out the window. With it go groveling, fear and want as well. I do not see worship as the right term for this sort of relationship.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Cecilianus]

Hi Cecilianus;: What you are saying is very true, but it gets a bit tricky in that what Rinnie said is also true when he mentioned drops of water and the ocean. While an individual jiva may exist in a manner like a drop of water. if you place that drop back in the ocean, there is only ocean. We would maintain that every drop eventually goes back to the ocean.

This is one possible difference between Christianity and Hinduism. While we do believe in the restoration of all things in God and the drawing-up of all things to Him (the apocatastasis - a term which is tricky because of an incorrect understanding of it explained by Origen and later rejected by the Church) - we do not believe that God will every undo His work of creation (we do not believe that the drop of water will metaphysically, ontologically be re-absorbed back into the ocean). On the other hand, we do really believe in “dying” to the old self and becoming perfectly transparent to God (“I live, not I, but Christ liveth in me”). I think the Sufis explained it very well by having fana (extinction of the self) followed by subsistence from God’s being (baqa).

The term worship is rather tricky in the context of Hinduism as well. We see it more as devotion to someone you love dearly, rather than worship. It’s not really worship as I see it in the context used by Christians. The reverence with which I think of Krishna or Jesus
is a form of reverence born purely of adoration. That adoration builds as you see them in the people around you. When you see them in your children, you add that dimension to your love of God. Likewise when you see them in your wife or husband, another aspect is added. The more you start loving other people, the more ways you start loving God.The more you love God, the more people you start to love. These different forms of love have a sort of kinetic effect on each other. You no longer have any expectation of reward or fear of punishment. It is love for the sake of love. You get to the point where you can say to Jesus: “you can keep your heaven - I just want you. If you are in heaven, then that’s where I want to be. Anyplace else you happen to be is fine too.” There’s where the expectations start to go out the window. With it go groveling, fear and want as well. I do not see worship as the right term for this sort of relationship.

Your friend,
Sufjon

Christians use the term “worship” is used for “love for the sake of love” for God. I do understand your point, though, and agree with everything else you said. Groveling and attempts to appease an angry deity or even worse manipulate Him to get your way out of a foxhole are unworthy of prayer to God. The reason why I think this love for God is properly called worship (a word we don’t usually use to describe love for one’s wife or neighbour) is because God is infinitely worthy of love; we adore and love Him because He is our Father and Creator who blessed us by creating us and the people we love around us.