⚖ Proud Boys member Alan Swinney arrested on 12 charges

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Dovekin said:
Do you think Trump was wrong to ask for the name of a specific group of white supremacists to condemn?
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Yeah. I don’t think you need group names to condemn certain ideas. I Just named some.
And I certainly think Biden was wrong to hide behind his cheap “idea” excuse.
Dovekin said:
CW tried to keep it to the vague “white supremacists”, but Biden offered a group. And when he was asked to condemn antifa, he started asking for a specific group, just as Trump had.
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Interesting that Biden refuses to condemn Antifa and BLM beyond the violence.
 
JonNC said:
Some ideas should be condemned, too.
Communism
Fascism
Racism
Anti-semitism
Socialism
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Hmmm.

Does antifascism belong on this list, apart from the violence?
How about BLM? Is there something wrong about it, like the other ideas that need to be condemned?

In any event, Biden was interrupted when he started to talk about Antifa, you shouldn’t hold it against him that he did not condemn it/them. For that matter, Trump was interrupted when he talked about the Proud Boys. By Trump, who cut off any talk about the Proud Boys to talk about Antifa, but still seems like an interruption.
 
"A now-deleted video from 2017 showed Proud Boys founder Gavin McInnes on an anti-Semitic rant, in which he defended Holocaust deniers and perpetuated racist stereotypes.

In the video titled “10 things I hate about the Jews,” McInnes said Jews have a “whiny paranoid fear of Nazis” and that Israelis don’t support President Donald Trump because they’re “scared of Christians and Trump, who are their biggest allies.”

In another video posted online after a trip to Israel with Rebel Media, a far-right Canadian website where McInnes used to be a star contributor, the Proud Boys leader said hearing from his Israeli hosts was making him anti-Semitic."

 
Do you think it also has to do with city dwellers having to live shoulder to shoulder with more diverse people? I’ve always noticed that even Republicans in large urban cities tend towards more moderate or central positions than rural Republicans.

I’ve known big city Republicans that would be considered liberals by their more conservative rural party members except for the issue of less/smaller government. It’s just my experience, nothing scientific and I’m just curious! :hugs:
 
Dovekin said:
The urban/rural divide is older, more fundamental than the Republican/Democrat divide. When the parties develop, they start looking for support and align with urban or rural voters, and the rural folk become Republicans, the urban Democrats. The parties help the voters advocate for their particular issues, like farm policy in rural areas or environmental policies in the cities.(water quality, sewers, smog)
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I would agree somewhat, but not entirely. Some of it is cultural, both as to where people live and what their politics are. And they’re not exactly the same.

In my state, the cities are largely black. In St. Louis metro area, except for a few little enclaves, that’s the case. The whites have largely moved out. The “white” part of the KC metro area is now largely in Kansas, except for KC Ks itself, which is largely black and Democrat.

But in the rural parts of the state, there is a significant number of Democrats where the Germans are, but that’s not a terribly large area. The rest of the rural areas (and Springfield) are mostly Scots-Irish. There is a big cultural difference that is reflected in politics, culture and even religion.

Go south of Missouri and it’s largely Scots-Irish wall to wall (southern La being an exception) and they’re heavily Republican. North of Missouri is very strongly Teutonic and there are lots of Democrats.

In my part of the country, the political determinant is cultural. It’s not about farm policies.
 
Dovekin said:
Does antifascism belong on this list, apart from the violence?
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I’m anti-fascist, just not the fascistic Antifa version.
Dovekin said:
How about BLM? Is there something wrong about it, like the other ideas that need to be condemned?
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It is a neo-Marxist organization. So, already included.
Dovekin said:
In any event, Biden was interrupted when he started to talk about Antifa, you shouldn’t hold it against him that he did not condemn it/them.
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He’s had months to condemn them.
Dovekin said:
By Trump, who cut off any talk about the Proud Boys to talk about Antifa, but still seems like an interruption.
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If the reports about Proud Boys are true, they belong in the same thought, condemned as being no different than Antifa.
 
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Thbolt said:
Well, we can read what was actually said and Trump said “Proud Boys, stand back and stand by”, so let’s be clear about that instead of making up a fantasy about what really happened.
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I sometimes joke with my wife that I wish she would cut me as much slack as CAF cuts ultra-right wing hate groups!

Part of me loves the fact that some posters can’t even entertain the possibly that Trump said something he shouldn’t have (so they say he said something different, or just didn’t mean what he plainly said, or the group he failed to condemn isn’t really that bad), and another part of me weeps because partisanship has now become our Golden Calf.

Worth a read:

 
Thbolt said:
Did you think the idea of the US military acting as anti-fascists during WW2 was a bad idea too?
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This is the second post to mention “anti-fascism” as if I was opposed to it.

So, as a reminder from a recent post:
JonNC said:
I have no political kinship with racist or fascist groups. They embody the exact opposite philosophy that I hold. Individual rights inherent from our creator or by natural law, and limited government.
I do not feel an obligation to defend them. They are no different from the extremists like Antifa and BLM. I view all tyranny with contempt, all forms of identity politics with disgust.
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I am an anti-fascist. I’m just not the fascistic Antifa variety.

Oh, and by the way, I think the American military did a fantastic job defeating fascism, including the National SOCIALIST variety.
 
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JonNC said:
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Dovekin:
Does antifascism belong on this list, apart from the violence?
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I’m anti-fascist, just not the fascistic Antifa version
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So you want Biden to condemn your idea of Antifa, which you have to explain when we ask about it. A complete condemnation that no one will misunderstand, except he is not allowed to explain what he is condemning. But you can explain what you want condemned?

Seems a little farfetched.
 
Dovekin said:
So you want Biden to condemn your idea of Antifa, which you have to explain when we ask about it.
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I want Joe Biden to condemn Antifa’s version of Antifa. They claim to be anti-fascist But dress like and act like black shirts. They claim to be anarchists. That’s worthy of condemnation, too.
Dovekin said:
But you can explain what you want condemned?
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I just did.
Dovekin said:
Seems a little farfetched.
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And yet you ask the same about Trump and Proud Boys. It seems odd to call a group headed by a black Cuban white supremacist.
 
JonNC said:
I want Joe Biden to condemn Antifa’s version of Antifa.
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Where do you find that? We are talking about Antifa as an idea, not as a specific group. Does the idea have an 800 number I can call for information?

This is a problem for all the ideas you listed. I can call the Socialist Party to find out what they think, which may or mY not be the idea of socialism that you think can be condemned. But is there an Antifa party I can call? That seems like a greater complication. Will Antifa tell me about anything that is different from AntiFascism in the way you say it is different? If they do, or don’t, I am still left with the question of whether their idea of Antifa is the version of Antifa that you think deserves condemnation.

I guess I am just saying I do not think Antifa as an idea like Fascism is well enough defined to deserve unexplained condemnation. Mostly I think it a fantasy of Trump and Barr’s paranoia.
 
Dovekin said:
Where do you find that? We are talking about Antifa as an idea, not as a specific group.
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Well, interestingly, FBI. Director Wray didn’t call it an idea. Here’s part of what he said
We look at Antifa as more of an ideology or a movement than an organization. To be clear, we do have quite a number of properly predicated domestic terrorism investigations into violent anarchist extremists, any number of whom self-identify with the Antifa movement. And that’s part of this broader group of domestic violent extremists that I’m talking about, but it’s just one part of it. We also have the racially motivated violence extremists, the militia types, and others.
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and.
I want to be clear that by describing it as an ideology or movement, I by no means mean to minimize the seriousness of the violence and criminality that is going on across the country. Some of which is attributable to that people inspired by, or who self-identify with that ideology and movement. We’re focused on that violence on that criminality. And some of it is extremely serious.
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So if you search, I’m sure you can find the ideology.
Dovekin said:
This is a problem for all the ideas you listed. I can call the Socialist Party to find out what they think, which may or mY not be the idea of socialism that you think can be condemned.
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This seems to be the growing excuse of the left. “Well, we don’t really know what that term really means. “ or, “it doesn’t really mean that”.
So, you go find a definition of fascism or racism you wouldn’t condemn. I can’t think of one.
Historically, socialism is government ownership or strict control of the means of production. That’s it. Not free markets with a social safety net. Not municipal services.
Dovekin said:
I guess I am just saying I do not think Antifa as an idea like Fascism is well enough defined to deserve unexplained condemnation.
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I’m just looking at their blackshirts and tactics. Mussolini would be proud.
Dovekin said:
Mostly I think it a fantasy of Trump and Barr’s paranoia.
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Yes, the violence in the streets of major American cities this summer is just paranoia.
 
ProVobis said:
You shouldn’t have to. Groups, whether they have a name or not, have no rights. Only individuals have rights. It must be that way.
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True and well said. I also have obligation to defend their philosophies or actions as individuals within their group or movement.
ProVobis said:
That’s the problem with stereotyping, which imo is more evil than racism.
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Again, I agree. The idea that everyone to the right of Biden is a white supremacist is just as evil as racism.
Wait. It is racism.
 
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