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RhodesianSon
Guest
I’m gonna go ahead and call Pennsylvania for Trump this election.
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pnewton
Guest
Flip the script and see if this is just. If the officer (say he thought he could talk the man out of the knife) would have gotten close enough to get stabbed and died, would you defend his fellow officers rampaging through the street, beating people, and destroying the man’s neighborhood, or are you a hypocrite?
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Any half-way decent social worker could have defused that situation and gotten him to drop the knife without killing him. (Moments before he was shot his own mother was pleading with him. He did not threaten her.) That’s why police should not be the first ones sent in when someone is having a mental health crisis. There are professionals who are trained to handle these types of situations. The cops that showed up in Philadelphia obviously did not have that training.
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pnewton
Guest
This was a bad situation, and I do not know that I have the answer. There are some police officers that might have diffused that situation as well. But this is not a question of training as it is job function. Police can have all the training in the world on crisis intervention, but they will still have that training in tactical response that they have to have to stay alive. Not all can switch back and forth easily.
Even given the perfect officer, one intent on suicide this way will always end up dead. I do not know this was the case with this man, of course. He may have just been a scared guy. It is noteworthy that even his mother could not get him to drop his knife.
Even given the perfect officer, one intent on suicide this way will always end up dead. I do not know this was the case with this man, of course. He may have just been a scared guy. It is noteworthy that even his mother could not get him to drop his knife.
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Balto1
Guest
The Nazis and the various anti-Nazi resistance groups in WWII both used violence in the pursuit of their goals, therefore both are morally equivalent and should be condemned.
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RhodesianSon
Guest
We broke Godwin’s law in 45 posts. Might be a record.
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Victoria33
Guest
And law enforcement officers get killed much more often.
As usual, this debate seems like silliness.
As usual, this debate seems like silliness.
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Balto1
Guest
In the words of Mike Godwin, creator of Godwin’s Law: “By all means, compare these ********s to Nazis. Again and again. I’m with you.”
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meltzerboy2
Guest
I am no conservative, but what you say is NOT an excuse for looting or rioting. And this kind of behavior, right before the presidential election, surely does not help the Dems.
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Suudy
Active member
I don’t know if this is the case in Philly, but I will tell you that in some places no other assistance is allowed to come in until the police have secured the scene.
When I lived near Seattle some years ago, we were walking to our car at a mall and saw a young black man lying on the ground bleeding. We called 911. My wife, being a nurse, did some initial first aid to help staunch the blood flow. Other individuals stood around watching. After about 5 minutes, an ambulance arrived but nobody got out of it. One of the bystanders ran to the ambulance to point them to the the man on the ground. They refused to come to the scene and told them that until the scene was secured by the police they could not help.
The guy was bleeding heavily. He needed medical attention. But nope, no EMTs were allowed until police got there.
Another 10 minutes passed and the police arrived. They pushed everyone back except my wife. Finally the ambulance came up and took care of the guy. Incredulously we asked the EMTs “Why did you wait?”" The police answered us saying that EMTs were to stay out of harms way in dangerous situations until police arrived. We shook our head and said “He could have died in that time.”
It’s quite possible that in this situation they would not have let a social worker anywhere near the scene due to the violent nature of things. And even if there was a social worker present, it would have been that person’s life on the line, with very likely very little, if not no, training in self defense. It could have been that 3 people died that day.
Suudy
Active member
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
I didn’t say it was. But one expect to see this kind of violent behavior as a result of continued injustice. Martin Luther King Jr. said "A riot is the language of the unhead. " MLK was not excusing riots when he said this, and neither am I.
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RhodesianSon
Guest
And ironically seeing otherwise normal people who support Trump railed against as nazis tends to push apolitical people into the Trump camp, at least from my own observations.
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pnewton
Guest
He knew how to fight injustice, unlike these rioters and the one’s who support them. No one with such a perverse since of justice does. Stealing and destroying the property, or physically assaulting those who were not involved in an unjust situation is a great injustice as well. Fighting fire with fire will burn down both sides. Everyone with a lick of sense knows you fight fire with water.
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Balto1
Guest
You should look up the MOVE bombing.
Sexual assault by the police and corrections officers is incredibly common.
See again: the MOVE bombing.
Most police officers carry handguns. The mass graves are usually the remains from deaths due to poverty and violence left unclaimed on the coroners’ shelves.
The Nazis didn’t start with those things, they ramped up to them. It would be abetter idea to stop them now before they get to that stage.
Sexual assault by the police and corrections officers is incredibly common.
See again: the MOVE bombing.
Most police officers carry handguns. The mass graves are usually the remains from deaths due to poverty and violence left unclaimed on the coroners’ shelves.
The Nazis didn’t start with those things, they ramped up to them. It would be abetter idea to stop them now before they get to that stage.
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RhodesianSon
Guest
“ In 1981, MOVE relocated to a row house at 6221 Osage Avenue in the Cobbs Creek area of West Philadelphia. Neighbors complained to the city for years about trash around their building, confrontations with neighbors, and bullhorn announcements of sometimes obscene political messages by MOVE members.[5][6] The bullhorn was broken and inoperable for the three weeks prior to the police bombing of the row house.[6]
The police obtained arrest warrants in 1985 charging four MOVE occupants with crimes including paroleviolations, contempt of court, illegal possession of firearms, and making terrorist threats.[7] Mayor Wilson Goode and police commissioner Gregore J. Sambor classified MOVE as a terrorist organization.[1] Police evacuated residents of the area from the neighborhood prior to their action. Residents were told that they would be able to return to their homes after a twenty-four hour period.”
“ There was an armed standoff with police,[9] who lobbed tear gas canisters at the building. The MOVE members fired at them, and a gunfight with semi-automatic and automatic firearms ensued.[10] Police used more than ten thousand rounds of ammunition before Commissioner Sambor ordered that the compound be bombed.[10] From a Pennsylvania State Police helicopter, Philadelphia Police Department Lt. Frank Powell proceeded to drop two one-pound (0.5 kg) bombs (which the police referred to as “entry devices”[1]) made of FBI-supplied Tovex, a dynamite substitute, targeting a fortified, bunker-like cubicle on the roof of the house.”
Truly my heart breaks for them
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HarryStotle
Guest
His own mother could not stop him. What makes you think any “half-way decent social worker” could?HarryStotle:
Any half-way decent social worker could have defused that situation and gotten him to drop the knife without killing him. (Moments before he was shot his own mother was pleading with him. He did not threaten her.) That’s why police should not be the first ones sent in when someone is having a mental health crisis. There are professionals who are trained to handle these types of situations. The cops that showed up in Philadelphia obviously did not have that training.
He “did not threaten her” appears to be you using rhetorical cover for her failing to have stopped him from being a threat to or actually injuring or killing others.
I am not as convinced as you are by the efficacy of social workers. Perhaps that is because there is a glaring dearth of "half-way decent ones? Maybe your tenuous use of words has you covered once more?
blackforest
Well-known member
Social workers can’t literally disarm people. They are mental health professionals who should be among the first on these scenes. Police officers are too inexperienced to handle emergencies with autism, mental illness, and other mental health conditions.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
His mother is not a trained professional. But it is notable that he did not stab her.
That’s nonsense. I’m sure she was doing her best to calm him down.
Well, I have good reason to distrust the efficacy of police who do not have special social work training, because they fail so often. How often do you hear about a social worker killing a client?
blackforest
Well-known member
This is precisely why social workers should be on the scene with the police as back-up. Police are not trained mental health professionals.
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