30 officers hurt in Philadelphia amid looting

[LeafByNiggle]

That’s a bit like asking how often do you hear about a chef putting out fires in a local building on fire. Both groups have different skill sets and work in different ways.
[/quote]

That’s right. And when the task is to prepare a 5-star meal, call for the chef, not the fire department. But that’s what is happening. We are calling for the fire department when we should be calling for the chef.

 

[HarryStotle]

This is precisely why social workers should be on the scene with the police as back-up. Police are not trained mental health professionals.

Right. Until a few social workers get killed then we’ll be rethinking the wisdom of putting unarmed individuals in harm’s way.

One thing I’ll point out is that it seems to be individuals who are not social workers who are volunteering social workers to be first responders. I don’t see many social workers stepping forward and insisting they are more qualified to disarm armed individuals with mental issues.

Why social workers specifically and not psychologists?

 

[HarryStotle]

Well, I have good reason to distrust the efficacy of police who do not have special social work training, because they fail so often. How often do you hear about a social worker killing a client?

Except that the press is only publicizing the outcomes of the police interactions where things don’t work out well for the victims as “failures” of the police assuming some other professional would have been more successful in that PARTICULAR case. We have no way of knowing that.

The press does not publicize AT ALL the millions of interactions between the police and the public that turn out well.

We have an outrageously skewed sampling of outcomes and you should be the first to acknowledge that.

There were 53.9 million interactions between police and individuals 16 years of age or older in 2015.

You are pointing to a relatively few instances of individuals who themselves reacted badly as blatant instances of police failure. It isn’t clear to me that the responsibility can be placed directly at the feet of the police.

 

[blackforest]

Right. Until a few social workers get killed then we’ll be rethinking the wisdom of putting unarmed individuals in harm’s way.

Social workers and counselors already intervene in such crises routinely.

I don’t see many social workers stepping forward and insisting they are more qualified to disarm armed individuals with mental issues.

Well, you just met one. While crisis intervention isn’t my own area of expertise, I’ve know some great people. I’ll introduce you to some more.

https://policyholder.naswassurance.org/social-workers-instead-of-police-a-new-risk-paradigm/

Or you could look to where it’s already working. 'CAHOOTS': How Social Workers And Police Share Responsibilities In Eugene, Oregon : NPR

They probably won’t do it as on-call volunteer work, however. We have families to feed, after all, although it would be interesting to see who would respond to a call for volunteers.

Why social workers specifically and not psychologists?

Psychologists would also be a great idea. Clinical social workers, counselors, and psychologists all hold advanced degrees. I imagine psychologists would be too expensive for municipalities or counties.

 

[HarryStotle]

Or you could look to where it’s already working. 'CAHOOTS': How Social Workers And Police Share Responsibilities In Eugene, Oregon : NPR

They probably won’t do it as on-call volunteer work, however. We have families to feed, after all, although it would be interesting to see who would respond to a call for volunteers.

Here is the problem I am having with the implementation in Eugene, OR, you cited.

The article states that the police were called 150 of the 24, 000 interactions with the public that were covered by the program.

Presumably those 150 instances would be the kind of instances like the one in Philadelphia. Your article doesn’t establish that social workers would be more successful than the police in those worst of instances.

Now if someone wanted to propose that social workers could be called in for a good number of the 50 or 60 million interactions that the police have with the public to relieve pressure on the police because social workers would be more effective in those day to day kinds of interactions. That would be more of a convincing argument to save money or relieve police of the demands on them.

That isn’t what you are proposing though, is it? No, you are proposing social workers should be called in to deal with the worst of cases where there is a good chance that someone will be killed.

Presumably, you are claiming that social workers should be called in for those 150 cases that the social workers in Eugene, OR, themselves had to call the police because they couldn’t handle the escalation.

From your article…

So last year, out of a total of about 24,000 calls, 150 times we called for police backup for some reason, so not very often.

 

[blackforest]

Presumably, you are claiming that social workers should be called in for those 150 cases that the social workers in Eugene, OR, themselves had to call the police because they couldn’t handle the escalation.

Were any of the subjects of these 150 interventions ever killed or injured by a police officer?

had to call the police because they couldn’t handle the escalation.

When a midwife or family doctor is overseeing childbirth, they call an obstetrician to handle any complications with labor. The chef mentioned in this thread may call the fire department if the stove goes haywire. Heck, even a cop or two will call for back up if they need it. There’s no wrong in summoning additional help when the situation warrants it.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Presumably, you are claiming that social workers should be called in for those 150 cases that the social workers in Eugene, OR, themselves had to call the police because they couldn’t handle the escalation.

Were any of the subjects of these 150 interventions ever killed or injured by a police officer?

had to call the police because they couldn’t handle the escalation.

When a midwife or family doctor is overseeing childbirth, they call an obstetrician to handle any complications with labor. The chef mentioned in this thread may call the fire department if the stove goes haywire. Heck, even a cop or two will call for back up if they need it. There’s no wrong in summoning additional help when the situation warrants it.

You didn’t address my main point.

The fact that social workers might be competent to handle a good portion of police calls does not mean that they would be competent to handle the calls which escalate quickly. So your Eugene citation doesn’t support what you are thinking it does.

 

[CradleRC58]

BLM is handing him the win on a silver platter.

 

[RhodesianSon]

Inshallah

Extra letters

 

[CradleRC58]

Works for me

 

[blackforest]

The fact that social workers might be competent to handle a good portion of police calls does not mean that they would be competent to handle the calls which escalate quickly.

And again, I asked you how many social workers in Eugene have perished or suffered injury as a result.

 

[HarryStotle]

And again, I asked you how many social workers in Eugene have perished or suffered injury as a result.

I am not clear what you are trying to prove. No social workers may have died that we know of, but that might be because the police were called when the social workers couldn’t handle the situation.

Were any of the subjects of these 150 interventions ever killed or injured by a police officer?

What is the point? I assume very few were, but that might be because the police intervened to de-escalate.

You are supposed to be demonstrating that “social workers” can handle the difficult cases that end up in the death of an individual better than the police can. You haven’t shown anything of the kind.

How many innocent individuals “perished or suffered injury” at the hands of police in Eugene?

Eugene deaths at the hands of police…

2019 - 1
2018 - 1
2017 - 1
2016 - 0
2015 - 2

The Cahoots program has been running since 1989.

It isn’t clear to me that the Cahoots program has stopped killings by police in Eugene. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find statistics for the years prior to 2015.

Profile of Eugene Oregon’s crime statistics.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Eugene-Oregon.html

It appears that Eugene is slightly above the US average in crime overall, but much higher in the categories of rape, arson and theft. Lower in homicides. How does the Cahoots program impact any of those?

If it was a program that produced a glaring benefit, I would suppose the city would be providing all kinds of comparables with the way things were before 1989.

Check the Cahoots website. 75% of the interactions have to do with checking welfare status, transportation of an individual or assisting the public. About 7-8% were potential suicides. Very few 1-2% were disorderly subjects or potential criminality.

Okay, I am with you that social workers could assist with minor cases that ought not require police attention but currently do.

I am not with you regarding cases of serious criminality. AND you haven’t demonstrated that social workers ought to be involved in those kinds of incidents.

Perspective:
In 2020 across all of the US 806 individuals were killed at the hands of the police. The vast, vast, majority were armed and dangerous.

In 2020, 236 police officers died in the line of duty.

2020

457 law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty in 2020.

www.odmp.org

 

[blackforest]

but that might be because the police were called when the social workers couldn’t handle the situation.

Yes. That’s when you call in the police. That’s what I’ve been trying to explain. You call other professionals when something is beyond your scope. There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s the whole point, the whole way it’s set up. I really don’t know how else to explain this . . .

You are supposed to be demonstrating that “social workers” can handle the difficult cases that end up in the death of an individual better than the police can. You haven’t shown anything of the kind.

Why is social workers in quotes? And no, I don’t have to demonstrate that at all. That’s not the intent of the program.

Social workers specialize in mental health. Police specialize in fighting crime. Often both are called to the scene. That’s the whole point.

It appears that Eugene is slightly above the US average in crime overall, but much higher in the categories of rape, arson and theft. Lower in homicides. How does the Cahoots program impact any of those?

Cahoots has nothing to do with those. It only intervenes in specific mental health cases.

I think I’m going to give up trying to explain this. Good night.

 

[jeannetherese]

According to the BBC The National Guard has been called in and a curfew is currently in effect in Philadelphia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-547

From the article:
"The curfew order is citywide and began at 21:00 local time (01:00GMT).

The Pennsylvania National Guard as well as police reinforcements have been deployed. Authorities say 30 officers were hurt during Monday night’s clashes.

Businesses have been boarding up their windows in fear of another night of violence."
Here’s a second link with video footage.

Philadelphia imposes curfew in anticipation of third night of violence after police killing

Philadelphia will impose a citywide 9 p.m. curfew Wednesday after two nights of unrest that saw violent clashes between demonstrators and police and businesses ransacked and vandalized amid citywide unrest over the fatal shooting of a Black man.

www.foxnews.com

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

but that might be because the police were called when the social workers couldn’t handle the situation.

Yes. That’s when you call in the police. That’s what I’ve been trying to explain. You call other professionals when something is beyond your scope. There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s the whole point, the whole way it’s set up. I really don’t know how else to explain this . . .

You have been arguing that social workers are equipped to handle serious cases of criminality.

Social workers can’t literally disarm people. They are mental health professionals who should be among the first on these scenes. Police officers are too inexperienced to handle emergencies with autism, mental illness, and other mental health conditions.

And Leaf appears to have understood your post in that way.

Well, I have good reason to distrust the efficacy of police who do not have special social work training, because they fail so often. How often do you hear about a social worker killing a client?

Social workers have not been called in up to now in such serious cases. My guess — just off the top of my head — is that they likely won’t kill any of the criminals or clients. But that isn’t really my concern. My concern would be how many social workers would be killed handling the client.

The Cahoots program seems wisely to not have attempted to take part in those serious incidents, leaving those to the police.

That is why @blackforest hasn’t really found any support by referring to the Cahoots program to let social workers handle these serious cases — they don’t seem to deal with this level of escalation.

Since @blackforest has called it a night I suppose that leaves you to stand for the cause.

 

[HarryStotle]

According to the BBC The National Guard has been called in and a curfew is currently in effect in Philadelphia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-547

From the article:
"The curfew order is citywide and began at 21:00 local time (01:00GMT).

The Pennsylvania National Guard as well as police reinforcements have been deployed. Authorities say 30 officers were hurt during Monday night’s clashes.

Businesses have been boarding up their windows in fear of another night of violence."
Here’s a second link with video footage.
Philadelphia imposes curfew in anticipation of third night of violence after police killing | Fox News

Perhaps if the National Guard isn’t successful, there might be a platoon of social workers that could be assembled and on stand-by. They could “stand back and stand by.”

Pardon my dark humour.

 

[HarryStotle]

Well, you just met one. While crisis intervention isn’t my own area of expertise, I’ve know some great people. I’ll introduce you to some more.

I have no doubt there are some great people who happen to be social workers. The thing is, however, that society will be needing as many as we can marshal, given the direction we are heading. No need getting them killed unnecessarily by putting them in harm’s way.

 

[JanR]

Wasn’t Philadelphia once the city of brotherly love?

 

[blackforest]

Good morning - Rest assured, I respond to your quoted posts. There’s really no need to tag me twice.

My concern would be how many social workers would be killed handling the client.

That Eugene has had this program in tact since 1989 without any social workers killed should assuage your concerns. Social workers deal with this escalation by calling on people who specialize in it. You seem riled up that social workers aren’t crime-fighting specialists. That’s as silly as blaming chefs for calling the fire department and not putting out their own kitchen fires.

 

[pnewton]

That’s right. And when the task is to prepare a 5-star meal, call for the chef, not the fire department. But that’s what is happening. We are calling for the fire department when we should be calling for the chef.

There is an important point here. Who called? Calling for the police in a mental health crisis is not a good idea unless the person is a serious danger to another person. But then, if the police are not well suited to handle this situation, how much more most of the general public are ill suited.

I know if I had a problematic family member, I would never call the police.

One thing I’ll point out is that it seems to be individuals who are not social workers who are volunteering social workers to be first responders.

Ironically, they are the one of the most underpaid professions in the U.S.

Okay, I guess I will interject my own anecdotal evidence for my area. Here, we have specialty trained mental health officers. We are trying to get more. I could link a news paper, but it is behind the pay wall. It sort of works? I mean, at the end of the day, these are still armed police who will shoot. But at least they are trained to have that as a second option, as oppose to other officers who are trained just to protect the public from the person they see as a perpetrator of crime. They are a mixed bag, these officers. We have one now who is very good, the type of officer that if all were like him, there would be few shootings, and none would be controversial.

I have known two in the past that were outstanding: one deceased, one retired. But these people were willing to risk their lives above and beyond what most would, even knowing that failure on their part could result in them being shot or stabbed while trying to talk someone down. We cannot pay people like this enough. They did a job they both believed in, and in my opinion, they did it with a heroism that no one ever recognized.