60% of US states are reporting increases in new cases

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petra22 said:
I was thinking of my poor mother and other aged folks in the nursing homes… They cannot keep clean and no matter how hard the nursing staff tries it’s practically impossible to keep the patients hands clean… I can’t imagine a virus transmitted that way… fecal… rushing through the nursing homes… I pray for them all, doctors, nurses, patients and family of patients…
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This hits close to home for me too as I have had elderly relatives in these facilities. Viruses that spread via fecal/oral means are dang hard to control as the required hygiene protocols are a lot of work to maintain consistently. Which is very difficult to do when the hospital or the long term care facility is understaffed. In the course of my contract jobs, I’ve been inside a few dozen facilities and can speak to the variation in the levels of care and hygiene available.

Masks do practically nothing to stop this means of transmission; they’re only good at controlling aerial spread from breathing and even then, only when worn correctly which many people don’t.

To this day, I do not understand why fecal/oral transmission gets so little air time beyond “wash your hands”. Maybe because the discussion might move in politically incorrect directions? Like who is bringing their lack of hand washing culture to the US?
Peaceable said:
Note, I’m not an expert in this area. However, I do think speculating that herd immunity is easy to achieve, is not particularly responsible. I don’t think we truly know yet whether or not this is the case. May depend on multiple factors, including mutation rates and the nature of mutation, as well as presence of superspreaders.
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I didn’t say “easy” to achieve, that’s you putting that word in my mouth.

That said, it is very responsible to discuss the possibility as it is out there. Else why does NY not have the spikes associated with other cities that had sizable protest crowds? Having a rational discussion on this can inform how we go forward and what criteria we use.

About superspreaders, think fecal/oral spread: anyone, even healthy people who don’t get infected themselves, can be a superspreader in that transmission mode, just never wash your hands and touch everything in your path, that’s all it takes. Yes that’s right, that’s all it takes. Think bartenders, for instance. Or cashiers. Or mass transit. Or grocery stock clerks. Or long term care facilities. Too easy if you ask me.

I’m a little indifferent about masks; I will wear them when required and that’s it. But I am nuts about washing my hands and wiping down surfaces. To the point, people think I’m a bit OCD about it. Hey I’m sorry, but that’s what it will take to really get this under control. For that matter, long before Covid-19 I had already considerably reduced my dining out as I don’t trust low wage food service workers all that much.
 
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Apparently you are not closely following the news about the corrupt medical studies and accusations of conflicted dealings.

To quickly name a few…

Lancet study of hydroxycloroquine had to be retracted. It claimed many people died, etc. >100 scientists cosigned a letter complaining about a list of problems. There is no way the Lancet editors accidentally missed those problems. The only reasonable conclusion is that they knowingly published a fraudulent study!
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31324-6/fulltext

Dr Chris Martenson explains the sad situation.

Probably hundreds or thousands will die due to that evil. Some people need to go to jail for crimes against humanity.

In contrast, several studies have come out more recently showing that hydroxycloroquine is safe to use–typically when using modest doses, when starting treatment early and when including zinc. References available if requested .

Also the New England Journal of Medicine warned that there is a problem with data in one of their coronavirus related studies. This is polite language for what everyone else would call fraud! I expect that one to be retracted too.
Martenson explains here

Warp Speed COVID-19 Vaccine Makes Big Pharma Crooks Rich
Analysis by Dr. Joseph MercolaFact Checked June 23, 2020

Two Moderna executives cashed in $25 million when stock prices rose immediately following the announcement that its COVID-19 phase 1 trial showed promising results…

Stock dropped within days, as critics pointed out the results were likely misrepresented and actually quite alarming…

Twenty percent of Moderna’s phase 1 volunteers suffered severe systemic side effects.
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/06/23/moderna-vaccine-coronavirus.aspx

I could go on about shady dealings.

I have two nieces who are among our admirable heroes on the front lines of this. As usual you can find good and evil in this crisis.
 
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MikeInVA said:
If you have no symptoms, then wearing a mask has no benefit (and there are those who suggest that wearing a mask for prolonged periods has a negative health impact on the wearer). The masks that most people are using aren’t able to stop the virus particles in your breath - the intent is for them to catch larger liquid particles when you cough or sneeze. If you are not coughing then the mask does no good. If you are coughing you should not be out in public.
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What is your source for this information?
 
Joegrane said:
Apparently you are not closely following the news about the corrupt medical studies and accusations of conflicted dealings.

To quickly name a few…

Lancet study of hydroxycloroquine had to be retracted. It claimed many people died, etc. >100 scientists cosigned a letter complaining about a list of problems. There is no way the Lancet editors accidentally missed those problems.
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You don’t even know what problems caused the retraction. So you can’t say they are problems that were knowingly overlooked. Yes, many people died. They had covid-19. Many were expected to die. Did the retracted article claim that HCQ killed them? No. If you really want to know the reasons for the retraction, go to the Lancet:
The Lancet:
After publication of our Lancet Article, several concerns were raised with respect to the veracity of the data and analyses conducted by Surgisphere Corporation and its founder and our co-author, Sapan Desai, in our publication. We launched an independent third-party peer review of Surgisphere with the consent of Sapan Desai to evaluate the origination of the database elements, to confirm the completeness of the database, and to replicate the analyses presented in the paper.

Our independent peer reviewers informed us that Surgisphere would not transfer the full dataset, client contracts, and the full ISO audit report to their servers for analysis as such transfer would violate client agreements and confidentiality requirements. As such, our reviewers were not able to conduct an independent and private peer review and therefore notified us of their withdrawal from the peer-review process.
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Joegrane said:
Probably hundreds or thousands will die due to that evil. Some people need to go to jail for crimes against humanity.
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That is pure speculation. HCQ has never been shown to be effective against covid-19. Many studies have been done, and it appears to be a dead end. Yes, it is safe when used in small doses, but is only effective against Malaria.

Don’t trust everything you read on the internet or see on YouTube.
 
Agree with this. Also that the focus on the Surgisphere article minimizes the extraordinary and heroic work being done nationally and internationally Covid. Uncharitable to paint everyone with this brush.
 
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This is what happens when you think that God did not create viruses and you try to circumvent nature as set up by God.

He gave us science and brains for a reason. TO USE.
 
That’s good. There’s a couple of other studies that also started around the same time as the Detroit study. I took note of them because they also were large studies. Here’s hoping they report similar results. And perhaps look specifically at the HCQ + zinc combo that many doctors in the trenches have reported as being the most effective treatment.

I’ve already advised my parents (in their late 70s) that besides the usual precautions of masking and washing hands, etc., that if they do come down with it they should request HCQ + zinc early and insist on it. One sibling has medical power of attorney for them and she is in agreement.
 
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Zzyzx_Road said:
why does NY not have the spikes associated with other cities that had sizable protest crowds?
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Chris Martenson, PhD presented some relatively new study data about “herd immunity,” levels of potentially disease fighting antibodies, etc.

Just eight weeks after recovery 13% of symptomatic patients and 40% of asymptomatic patients had NO detectable level of antibodies.

40% of the asymptomatic patients had no antibodies at all. Ugh : ( The 5 minute clip is here.

So maybe NYC has not done badly since the protests and riots because they were within the time period where a significant number of antibodies are still present. How well they will do during the coming Fall and Winter flu season remains to be seen.
 
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buffalo said:
Antibodies is only one way the immune system fights viruses.
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Thank you. Martenson explains various aspects of the immune system in a bit of detail in a roughly five minute clip after his coverage of the study of antibodies in former Covid-19 patients.

ZZ_Road and I were discussing herd immunity and other issues more likely to involve longer-term “adaptive immunity,” including antibodies.
 
I replied to Leaf’s post in a new discussion.
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Article: https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/a-safe-effective-outpatient-treatment-plan-for-covid-19-exists-why-arent-more-doctors-using-it Moral Theology
kek Regardless this: Is grossly oversimplifying the issue. Take a look at this article,, which talks about how a study showed that the drug is not a helpful treatment. Some points of interest: Results published Wednesday by the New England Journal of Medicine show that hydroxychloroquine was no better than placebo pills at preventing illness from the coronavirus. The drug did not seem to cause serious harm, though – about 40% on it had side effects, mostly mild stomach problems. Dr. Dav…
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His post is a perfect example of the evil that is taking place–hopefully just terrible ignorance about encouraging studies, not Pharma trolls intentionally trying to deceive. At least two of the studies reported half the deaths in treated patients! Others reported fewer people needing to go to the hospital.

I assume some of this is media bias due to Trump’s use of the medication. Some may be Big Pharma bias and influence on media that they support with advertisements. They don’t want to see some cheap old drug be helpful. Probably fewer people will need the much more expensive Remdesivir that I think is only given via IV in the hospital. Fewer people will want to roll the dice on a poorly tested vaccine, especially given the dreadful history of vaccines for cornonaviruses.

This is another example of the loss of Christian values in our culture. In the midst of a pandemic people act for their personal gain instead of the common good. This is people on the Left and godless corporations on the Right.

Christians need to be aware of the situation if they are to have a positive effect on the culture. We need to talk this up as an example of the benefits of a Christian culture.
 
Joegrane said:
Just eight weeks after recovery 13% of symptomatic patients and 40% of asymptomatic patients had NO detectable level of antibodies.

40% of the asymptomatic patients had no antibodies at all. Ugh : ( The 5 minute clip is here.
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Yet we also have no verified cases of recovered people being reinfected, and we should have quite a number by now if there was this risk.
 
www.theatlantic.com

‘How Could the CDC Make That Mistake?’

The government’s disease-fighting agency is conflating viral and antibody tests, compromising a few crucial metrics that governors depend on to reopen their economies. Pennsylvania, Georgia, Texas, and other states are doing the same.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com

Hard to tell the real numbers I guess … like the death reporting … how much of this is still happening?
 
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Joegrane said:
I replied to Leaf’s post in a new discussion.
kek Regardless this: Is grossly oversimplifying the issue. Take a look at this article,, which talks about how a study showed that the drug is not a helpful treatment. Some points of interest: Results published Wednesday by the New England Journal of Medicine show that hydroxychloroquine was no better than placebo pills at preventing illness from the coronavirus. The drug did not seem to cause serious harm, though – about 40% on it had side effects, mostly mild stomach problems. Dr. Dav…
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His post is a perfect example of the evil that is taking place–hopefully just terrible ignorance about encouraging studies, not Pharma trolls intentionally trying to deceive.
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Believing in science is not evil, buy calumny is.
This is another example of the loss of Christian values in our culture. In the midst of a pandemic people act for their personal gain instead of the common good…
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I assume you mean people who refuse to wear a mask in public indoor places.

In case anyone is confused about the Henry Ford Hospital Study, it is a retrospective study. That means the decisions of who got HCQ treatment and who didn’t was not random, but was made by the doctors and their patients at the time. As such, differences in outcome may very well reflect those decisions. That is why a randomized study is needed. The authors of the study agreed. Even a retrospective study is better than nothing, so there is reason for hope that HCQ might be of some benefit. But we just can’t say that for sure until a randomized study is completed. In the meantime, I am not opposed to people trying it.
 
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If the protests were isolated events, we’d probably get around to blaming them. But with states reopening and political rallies starting, no one is going to discuss the rallies, which had far more people involved and are much more likely culprits.

As our state reopened, you can’t go inside any building without a mask. I can’t work without one, or buy groceries, or anything. With may of the reopenings, distancing and mask wear is enforced. Not so at the hundreds of protests.
 
petra22 said:
This is the first place I’ve ever heard it spreads by fecal means… Did the scientists/experts working with President Trump ever say that?
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Great, now they are going to try and enforce posterior mask-wear. That’s where I draw the line, hombre.
 
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Dr_Meinheimer said:
As our state reopened, you can’t go inside any building without a mask. I can’t work without one, or buy groceries, or anything. With may of the reopenings, distancing and mask wear is enforced. Not so at the hundreds of protests.
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The difference is outcome is likely due to the fact that the protests were outdoors and in the sunshine, which destroys the virus in a minute.
 
I will take your word for it on the sunshine (and I mean that, as I don’t track what effect sunlight has). That would mean beaches and pools opening should be fine as well.
 
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