A Historical Dare to Protestants

[guanophore]

Tom I am intolerant of falsehood. People who make false claims.

If this is your original work then plainly state that it is( I have my reservations, that is why I have asked)
If it is not your original work then please provide your source.

In addition to being ingrained in his memory, all of it can also be found in the Catechism. Sometimes we learn concepts, and are not sure of the source. I recently learned the author of a poem I have been using for 20 years!

 

[guanophore]

For the time being I am not going to argue the point about Peter having some type of greater authority than the remaining apostles. You at least can make a reasoned case that is in fact true (not that I am totally sold on this yet though).

I think that our secular notions of authority impede us here. Jesus did not intend for the apostles to wield their authority this way, and they understood this. Peter had a special charism that was not given to the others, but the unity was never broken.

One problem though is that an instance of an event in Scripture does not necessarily mean that event is meant to be the norm. In other words, just because we see Matthias replacing Judas, it does not follow from this passage that Gods intention was that all apostles would be replaced from the beginning until the end of the church age.

You are right. Jesus put mud on the eyes of the blind man and healed his sight. We don’t keep doing this. However, Jesus intended for their to be apostolic succession, and this is what occurred. Every time an office was vacated, it was filled.

And this instance is sort of weak in that Judas really never served as an apostle since he committed suicide before the part of the church age.

I dont think it is proper to discount the three years he spent with Christ. Scripture is clear that Judas had a part, and forsook it.

Caveat, this does not necessarily mean that I hold the dispensationalist view that the office of the apostle died after the twelve.

I don’t think that is a dispensationalist view.

No one is able to qualify for the office of Apostle anymore.

  once I visited a church in the county next to mine and the senior pastor was also listed as an apostle.

Now I am skeptical of all claims of apostles until I see somebody that can perform miracles at will like the apostles in the book of Acts. Benny Hinn does not qualify here.

Miracles happen every day. It is the other qualifications that are prohibitive.

But if I were to assume my standards for apostleship are too high, why shouldn’t I believe that this senior pastor is an apostle as well as your pope.

All the successors of the Apostles are called bishops, not Apostles. Only Matthias was called an Apostle, because he could meet the requirements. No one after the death of the last Apostle could.

 And of course   have absolutely no reason to believe that your pope is incapable of being incorrect when speaking on faith and morals.  I don't believe that of my pastor, why should I believe that of your pope.

Perhaps you will be willing to do some more study on the charism of infallibility?

 I have absolutely idea what you are saying here.

Authentic churches are in unity with the successors of the Apostles, the Bishops.

Anyway, I don’t see whereas your particular denomination has any more authority than any other denomination in my phone book anyway.

You may wish to consider that your phone book is missing a lot of info…2000 years of history for starters.

Apparantly I am allied with a rebellious sect founded by heretics and that I have a seething hatred against the Body of Christ. At least that is what I have been told.

If this is true, then you have come to the right place!

 

[guanophore]

So I don’t have the calling on my life to be as informed on this as say a pastor or evangelist.

How do you know this? where does scripture say that those who are not evangelists should not have to be as well informed?

 I do read in Scripture where I am to study the Bible to show myself approved.  I have yet to find the Scripture that command me to study anything else.

There is nothing in that verse that refers to Scripture as the source of the study.

One must also be mindful that the NT did not yet exist, so it definitely is not referring to that.

that is not to say studying anything else is not useful. In fact, if I am to invest time by reading Christian literature, I would probably prefer reading Clement, Ignatious, Wesley, and Martyr’s Mirror to The Purpose Driven Life, The Prayer of Jabez, The Shack or whatever your current hot Christian book is (caveat: I did like The Purpose Driven Life though).

Sounds like a great reading plan!

OK. If you make a statement and back it up with some reasoning, then I will at least try not to be too dismissive,. However if it is a statement of faith that is presented as fact without any substantiation, then it is in fact an “opinion”.

Actually, the shoe is on the other foot in this thread. Please go back and look at the OP (original post) and take your shot.

actually I like John Wesley because he is one of the early Protestants who really shows exceptional character. But that is a separate topic.
Oh…and I am pretty close to him theologically too.

Very sorry to hear that. However, I agree with you about character.

 

[guanophore]

I have searched in vain for the verse in the Bible where Peter, Paul, John, Jude, Luke or any other apostle claimed they were incapable of being incorrect (now I have found verses that claim they have apostolic authority but that is not the same animal). But who knows, maybe these verses exist in Romans 17 or some other part of the Bible I have yet to read.

No need to get sarcastic, With. You have misunderstood the Catholic teaching on infallibility, and are chasing a strawman.

Well I do get a disconnect when I study Scripture and then I read what the Catholic church puts forth as dogma.

I think that connection can be made if you fill in about 2000 years of history.

 

[UtSuShImI]

Is this why you came to CAF?

nope… id say it was the reason but its too down under

Because Christ, the Great High Priest, appointed Peter to shepherd the flock. Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth, and he gave it to His apostles. They passed it to their successors, one of whom is our current pope.

but then if he was a real pope, shouldnt there any miraculous things happening to him if he was real… but nooooooo… the devil wont even bother approaching him…

I suppose it would be, if it was not Jesus doing it.

then yes it is Blasphemy its a pope not Jesus/God
He uses God’s name by saying he is the “vicar” of Christ…

Read John 14:6 recently? Jesus saith unto him,** I **am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Are you by any chance blind? Then if the pope is the vicar then wouldnt the Bible have any hint of saying to “venerate” the pope or whatever… The verse CLEARLY says: I(JESUS) FATHER(GOD) BY ME(JESUS) ooopss what do you know… no space for the so called “pope” here

He will probably not forgive yours.

It is necessary that you have a firm purpose of amendment.

He won’t forgive my sins because he isnt God… maybe the Apostles can forgive sins because they LITERALLY walked with GOD!

Do you believe the things that aJesus told the Apostles were meaningless?

Then i wouldnt even be a Christian right know… DUH!

This is the REASON that the pope can forgive sins.

The John 14:6 PLEASE! CHECKING… No pope in the verse is mentioned… only says a remarkable CLEAR statement -BY ME(Jesus)

And by the way… why come to the pope and other priests to be forgiven when YOU can talk straight to GOD by PRAYER!

Do you make a habit of asking the pope to save you?
If so, why?

I wouldnt even try to spit at his direction! The pope cannot forgive sins!

You seem to be very ill informed about Catholicism. Catholics believe that worshipping anything or anyone other than Almighty God constitutes the sin of idolatry.

Well duh! I know that! Then what are the people in the pictures doing? Bowing down to the MAN-MADE idols huh?

Read Jeremiah 10 especially 10,14-15

Do you somehow imagine that this insignia is connected to the Catholic Church?

Well yeah! The picture says it all… its a Catholic Church duh!

Well, let’s see. We could start by not bearing false witness against your neighbor. That would mean, if you have love, you would open your mind to what Catholics really believe and teach, rather than all these lies.

so then what do you think you are doing? Shouldnt your accusations mirror to you also… bearing false testimony… and if you have love the you would also open your mind to what Christians really believe… and then why answer the What is Love question so suddenly? So then… did something struck you when you read Jeremiah 7:18? Lets read it again!

Jeremiah 7:18:“The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to **pour out **drink offerings unto other gods, **that they may provoke me to anger.” **

So then… my dear friend… it clearly says “queen of heaven”
and “provoke me to anger” What do you say about this?
REMEMBER CATHOLICS: GOD IS A JEALOUS AND ZEALOUS GOD and Jealous is to god means he wants him to be the only one worshipped! NOT THE POPE! NOT THE BISHOP! BUT GOD!

If you wish to continue posting here, you might want to consider looking at the forum rules. One of them is that you are supposed to stay on topic. If you want to discuss any or all of the calumnies you have brought here, then start a new thread for each.

If you think the inquisition has been hidden from the world then you have a very small world.

In fact, the Church has kept the most detailed and accurate records of the proceedings,a dn they are available in the library. And the books are in the restricted section?

Without a doubt there was some greed and abuse of power involved.

SO there was no denying of Early Catholics abusing power! And by the way… another sin… GREED!

It is true that, to the detriment of the Church, politics was mixed with religious things in the papacy of the middle ages. However, this is no longer the case. No, Rome does not have a king, and the Pope does not have temporal or secular power in Rome. He only has any jurisdiction in Vatican City, and in the Church founded by Christ.

There was a newspaper news that was very old that says the Pope was mixed with a Kingly power and a Papal power!

Try I Cor. 13, and see if you can begin to exercise any of those qualities.

Nice answer… i thought Catholics would say Love is blind or Love is … or any other things… so this is the only reply i can agree w/ you… BUT are you sure you also do the things said in I Cor. 13 i know i don’t do some of it because our body is enclosed in the spirit of sin…

 

[Ross09]

…

Guanophore is a very patient and knowlegeable Catholic; I look forward to his reply to your posting. I will warn you, however, your word choice in your posting comes across as a snide tone and your attempts to debate in this fashion will not go over well on this site. We Catholics may disagree with your theology, but we are not idiots. So please, try to exercise respect.

 

[benedictus2]

This is why I am confused by Protestant theology … faith or anything else is not a “chit” or “ticket” to heaven.

This is what Paul rails against. You cannot self-justify yourself before God by presenting anything … there is no “ticket” to heaven as if I purchased it with “works”, “merits” or money.

You indeed show up at the dock and present yourself to the Captain who in his infinite compassion and mercy for you allows you on board … and puts you in a suite.

SIMPLY BEAUTIFUL!!!

 

[benedictus2]

It is more important to find God.
Does your church teach you to hear Gods voice?
Do not look for a church Look for God.

But it was God’s will to build a church. And it is God’s will that we all be members of His Church.

Find His Church and you find God.

 

[benedictus2]

You are assuming that the ‘true church’ must be one and only one denomination. Why should I make this assumption?

But even if I were to make this assumption you can not prove from Scripture and history that you are the one true church.

Jesus established only 1 Church. Upon Peter.

And yes we can prove from scripture and from history that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus founded upon Peter.

By rational argument alone, it can be established that Christ did not establish several churches.

 

[ncgolf]

I have been studying something about computer science stuff called TCP/IP protocol. One of the coolest things about it, I found, was how it can perform it’s appointed functions, via any kind of computer or hardware.

Sounds like the designer designed that particular piece of software with a plan, so it could be adaptable to objects that have difficulty changing.

I see something different in your analogy than I think you are intending.

I tend to think of Jesus as similar in nature; He can reach all kinds in all places/churches.

Catholic teaching never doubts that grace is distributed as the Holy Spirit sees fit. I do not doubt grace has been made available to you and is truly available to all of mankind whether that person knows of Jesus or not.

Sometimes, the history thing has to just stop there.

That being said … my response was made to an accusation that we, as Catholics, subsrcribe to a “works” gospel … The accusation of a “works” gospel came from the reformation and is part of Christian history.

Many protestants come here and tell us what we believe … the “works” accusation being in the top 5.

daddy’s post about the ticket and cruise, while well meaning, shows how easy one can be misunderstood on this subject. I merely tried to point it out … he agreed and we moved on.

I hope what daddy saw was just how easy it is to be misunderstood … we keep saying Catholics don’t subscribe to a “works” gospel and well meaning Christians keep saying … yes you do.

 

[Protestant101]

But it was God’s will to build a church. And it is God’s will that we all be members of His Church.

Find His Church and you find God.

“His Church” cannot possibly mean just one denomination - as in “Roman Catholic.” God has always had His children in all churches.

 

[Protestant101]

That being said … my response was made to an accusation the we, as Catholics subsrcribe to a “works” gospel … The accusation of a “works” gospel came from the reformation and is part of Christian history.

Many protestants come here and tell us what we believe … the “works” accusation being in the top 5.

I hope what daddy saw was just how easy it is to be misunderstood … we keep saying Catholics don’t subscribe to a “works” gospel and well meaning Christians keep saying … yes you do.

We “Protestants” don’t just come here and tell you what we believe. Some of us come here and tell you our understanding of it - but such characterizations are not needed, and are likely highly inaccurate, atleast in some cases.

The places here at CAF where Catholics “defend” works suggests a different picture than what you paint; although I have no problem accepting what you say at face value; I have questions about the general thinking of Catholics on this issue. The Reformation did not seek to eliminate works from the equation; only to clarify their rightful place.

 

[benedictus2]

“His Church” cannot possibly mean just one denomination - as in “Roman Catholic.” God has always had His children in all churches.

The different churches in the NT that I think you are aluding to all belong to the One Catholic Church. They all believed the same doctrines. Whenever heretical doctrines come up they firmly squashed. That is why the phrase “Rome has spoken, the matter is closed”.

There were different bishoprics and churches but they were all under the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Down through the centures till Luther and company came.

Even if you look at Paul. Christ specifically chose him. But even he has to be annointed by a member of the church and when he was sent on a mission he was sent by the Church. He was not a one man, free-agent band.

 

[Protestant101]

The different churches in the NT that I think you are aluding to all belong to the One Catholic Church. They all believed the same doctrines. Whenever heretical doctrines come up they firmly squashed. That is why the phrase “Rome has spoken, the matter is closed”.

There were different bishoprics and churches but they were all under the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Down through the centures till Luther and company came.

Even if you look at Paul. Christ specifically chose him. But even he has to be annointed by a member of the church and when he was sent on a mission he was sent by the Church. He was not a one man, free-agent band.

There were and are many population groups who by Bible definition can be counted as “God’s children.” Many of them have nothing to do with “Rome has spoken.” This is enough history for me.

 

[ncgolf]

We “Protestants” don’t just come here and tell you what we believe. Some of us come here and tell you our understanding of it - but such characterizations are not needed, and are likely highly inaccurate, atleast in some cases.

There have been quite a few … and if I generalized too much … that was not my intent … and if you took it that way, I apologize.

You know … maybe non Catholic is a better term … honestly what term is acceptable … typically in a history topic … Protestant is applicable but tell me what is a better terminology.

The places here at CAF where Catholics “defend” works suggests a different picture than what you paint; although I have no problem accepting what you say at face value; I have questions about the general thinking of Catholics on this issue. The Reformation did not seek to eliminate works from the equation; only to clarify their rightful place.

I don’t disagree with your statement … Catholics too come here to learn and come to a deeper understanding … that is why I am here.

I agree though the topic is difficult … I know I understand some, but not all, so I like this topic … as I have come to enjoy Paul much more as I have gotten older.

I too have questions on a non Catholic’s view of faith, works, justification, santification …

You have found a difficulty in forums … staying on topic … if you do have particular questions … start a thread with a specific question … and if you get what you need … you need not particpate further thus avoiding the unavoidable straying.

 

[SD_Catholic]

And by the way… why come to the pope and other priests to be forgiven when YOU can talk straight to GOD by PRAYER!

.

Do you suppose this is what the early Christians said when the Apostles told them they were forgiven… “Why should I listen to you Paul, I can talk to God!” … Jesus set up the system, we just follow it…

Just answer me this… If you believe that the power to forgive sins ended with the Apostles, then atleast explain to me why Jesus even gave them the power to forgive sins in the first place when he could have did it himself the whole time?

SD

 

[Protestant101]

Do you suppose this is what the early Christians said when the Apostles told them they were forgiven… “Why should I listen to you Paul, I can talk to God!” … Jesus set up the system, we just follow it…

Just answer me this… If you believe that the power to forgive sins ended with the Apostles, then atleast explain to me why Jesus even gave them the power to forgive sins in the first place when he could have did it himself the whole time?

SD

Since this is a “historical dare,” would you allow me to turn the tables for the purpose of clarification? I would be interested to know what specific Scriptures you are using when you say that “The Apostles forgave sins.”

 

[SD_Catholic]

There were and are many population groups who by Bible definition can be counted as “God’s children.” Many of them have nothing to do with “Rome has spoken.” This is enough history for me.

Without history don’t you thik it might be a bit tough to answer the OP?

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

Since this is a “historical dare,” would you allow me to turn the tables for the purpose of clarification? I would be interested to know what specific Scriptures you are using when you say that “The Apostles forgave sins.”

Well I guess John 20:22-23 seems pretty clear to me, but since I would imagine you have seen this many times you must have other thoughts on that scene.

It also seems that in 2 Cor 2:10 that Paul talks about forgiving people that had nothing to do with him.

SD

 

[catholic_daddy]

SIMPLY BEAUTIFUL!!!

The problem I keep running into is that while Paul talks over and over about believers having BEEN saved (past perfect tense) and having been reconciled to God, I don’t find many Catholics who know that any such thing has happened to them. They don’t seem to have what the hearers of Paul had and what many that I know havw.