A Historical Dare to Protestants

[allhers]

FYI, when you use the word as an adjective to describe a mere mortal, it is ‘godly’ with a small ‘g’.
Anyway…to start with, how about Billy Graham, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Charles Stanley, Charles Swindoll, R C Sproul, John MacArthur, Adrian Rogers, W A Criswell, Vance Havner, James Boyce, Franklin Graham, O S Hawkins, Jim Henry, John Bisagno, Junior Hill, James Kennedy…if you care, ALL of those guys are VERY pro-life, though it has nothing to do with this conversation.

Well, okay, you were right about the g. That is something we can agree on then. I have actually heard of two of those men, Billy Graham and Charles Stanley, I know some Lutherans who like them. Correction, three, isn’t Franklin Graham, Billy’s son?

Obviously I care, you apparently read my signature.

 

[elvisman]

Catholic I know what you are saying and after reading all the back and forth here I think the conversation can be summed up pretty easily.

I agree with you that we have to be able to be sure of our salvation otherwise we’d be questioning the promise of Christ. But I also understand what Elvis and others are saying as well. We can be sure of our salvation in Christ if we maintain our faith in Christ. But as Paul tells us in Romans we can’t then continue to live in sin to show more of God’s grace. That’s trying to serve 2 masters which can’t be done. But GOD also understands that no matter how hard we try to live our lives dedicated to Christ we end up committing sin. But sin should not be what characterizes our lives and we always need to seek forgiveness.

With regard to losing salvation, if I live my life dedicated to Christ but then suddenly develop doubts and start living a life dominated by sin then I can’t really be sure of my salvation can I?? Suppose I go and commit adultery over and over again? This would show a lack of repentance on my part which to me is a rejection of Christ. If I die in that state I’ve basically rejected what Christ asked me to do to have eternal life.

If I live my life dedicated to Christ and try my hardest to repent of my sinful ways, always seeking GOD’s forgiveness then I feel pretty confident that if I died at that point I would have eternal life with Christ. Growing up in the Catholic church I was always taught this message. I was never taught that my salvation was in jeopardy if I kept Christ’s commands and I don’t think others are trying to say that.

PEACE brother

I think that you have summed up this debate very nicely.
It’s not “losing salvation” that Catholic believe because we believe - as scripture says - that salvation and sanctification is a process and we can’t lose what we don’t completely yet have

Jesus finished work on the cross forgives our sins - BUT we must repent. We can’t simply go around saying that we can do anything because our past, present and future sins are paid for.

**Whether catholic daddy likes it or not - we’re all still sinners in need of repentance because I don’t know of one single person who is without sin.
We must endure to the end and do the will of our Father in heaven.

Peace, brotha.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

My assurance is based on God’s promise to keep me for eternity. Yours is ultimately based on your own strength! Which sounds like a better deal?
The more important issue for you is to question yourself as to whether you have truly trusted in the cross of Christ and the FREE gift provided there. God will not let us have salvation if we are trying to earn it. God Bless

Where in the world are you getting this idea from me that my salvation is based on my works and my own strength. I thought I’ve made it clear post after post that that is not the case.

NDfan stated it beautifully in a few posts above.

Are you listening to what I’m saying at all, or am I not making myself clear?

I trust in Jesus sacrifice for me on the cross and thankfully accept the free gift of salvation He offers to me.

THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO TO EARN IT…JESUS OFFERS IT TO ME AND I ACCEPT IT.

And now I follow His commands in living my life as a follower of Him. If I break one of His commands that is sin. If I confess that sin Jesus will forgive me.

And what is His command in the Bible to those whose sins He forgives? Go and sin no more!

And God in His love and mercy will forgive me 7 times…in fact He will forgive me 7 times 70…and He has probably forgiven me in the past 50 years, 7 times 7000. And He commands us to forgive those who sin against us that much too!!

Today I walk and live with Jesus by choice…and He gives me life. Tomorrow if I chose to abandon Jesus and walk and live without Him, He will allow me to have what I choose.

But we all know that without Jesus there is no life, so what I choose in leaving Jesus is death.

God bless all!!

 

[catholic_daddy]

I totally agree with what Jesus said that a man must be born of water AND the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God.

What do you think being born of water means, if not baptism?

God bless all!!!

If water means baptism, it is difficult to understand why our Lord rebuked
Nicodemus for his ignorance. Christian baptism was not yet instituted, nor
had the facts that it signifies occurred yet, namely the death, burial and
resurrection of Christ. So Nicodemus could not understand “water” to mean
baptism. Yet Christ expected this teacher of Israel to know about being
born of water, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these
things?” Evidently, Christ meant something other than baptism, which
Nicodemus could have known from the Old Testament Scriptures.

In John’s Gospel, water is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and the spiritual
life He gives (John 4:14; 7:38, 39). Jesus speaks “of water and Spirit”
not because there are two sources of regeneration but to describe the Holy
Spirit working like water. The two are taken together to describe
different aspects of the same reality. The Holy Spirit alone regenerates
(John 3:6, 8), and in so doing, He acts like water cleansing and renewing
the soul (John 3:5). The Scriptures elsewhere explain that it was “not by
works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He
saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy
Spirit” (Titus 3:5). The cleaning and renewing of the heart is performed
by the Spirit. There is no mention of the rite of baptism, much less that
it causes regeneration.

Similarly, God speaks by the prophet Ezekiel: “Then I will sprinkle clean
water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your
filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a
new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh
and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause
you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.”
(Ezekiel 36:25-27). The clean water is applied by God - “I will sprinkle
clean water on you” - and not by the priest, midwife or pastor, and by so
doing, He cleanses and renews the heart.

 

[catholic_daddy]

I think that you have summed up this debate very nicely.
It’s not "losing salvation" that Catholic believe because we believe - as scripture says - that salvation and sanctification is a process and we can’t lose what we don’t completely yet have

Jesus finished work on the cross forgives our sins - BUT we must repent. We can’t simply go around saying that we can do anything because our past, present and future sins are paid for.

Whether catholic daddy likes it or not - we’re all still sinners in need of repentance because I don’t know of one single person who is *without *sin.
**We must **endure to the end and do the will of our Father in heaven.

Peace, brotha.

I’ve given you plenty of Scripture, and there is a lot more. Just make sure that you know that you know that you know that you have been regenerated. If not, all this talk is useless to you anyway. God Bless

 

[allhers]

If water means baptism, it is difficult to understand why our Lord rebuked
Nicodemus for his ignorance. Christian baptism was not yet instituted, nor
had the facts that it signifies occurred yet, namely the death, burial and
resurrection of Christ. So Nicodemus could not understand “water” to mean
baptism. Yet Christ expected this teacher of Israel to know about being
born of water, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these
things?” Evidently, Christ meant something other than baptism, which
Nicodemus could have known from the Old Testament Scriptures.

In John’s Gospel, water is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and the spiritual
life He gives (John 4:14; 7:38, 39). Jesus speaks “of water and Spirit”
not because there are two sources of regeneration but to describe the Holy
Spirit working like water. The two are taken together to describe
different aspects of the same reality. The Holy Spirit alone regenerates
(John 3:6, 8), and in so doing, He acts like water cleansing and renewing
the soul (John 3:5). The Scriptures elsewhere explain that it was “not by
works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He
saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy
Spirit” (Titus 3:5). The cleaning and renewing of the heart is performed
by the Spirit. There is no mention of the rite of baptism, much less that
it causes regeneration.

Similarly, God speaks by the prophet Ezekiel: “Then I will sprinkle clean
water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your
filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a
new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh
and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause
you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.”
(Ezekiel 36:25-27). The clean water is applied by God - “I will sprinkle
clean water on you” - and not by the priest, midwife or pastor, and by so
doing, He cleanses and renews the heart.

Now here I beg to differ, check out John:1 (John the Baptist and the Baptism of Jesus).
Then see John 3 where Nicodemus comes in.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Where in the world are you getting this idea from me that my salvation is based on my works and my own strength. I thought I’ve made it clear post after post that that is not the case.

NDfan stated it beautifully in a few posts above.

Are you listening to what I’m saying at all, or am I not making myself clear?

I trust in Jesus sacrifice for me on the cross and thankfully accept the free gift of salvation He offers to me.

THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO TO EARN IT…JESUS OFFERS IT TO ME AND I ACCEPT IT.

And now I follow His commands in living my life as a follower of Him. If I break one of His commands that is sin. If I confess that sin Jesus will forgive me.

And what is His command in the Bible to those whose sins He forgives? Go and sin no more!

And God in His love and mercy will forgive me 7 times…in fact He will forgive me 7 times 70…and He has probably forgiven me in the past 50 years, 7 times 7000. And He commands us to forgive those who sin against us that much too!!

Today I walk and live with Jesus by choice…and He gives me life. Tomorrow if I chose to abandon Jesus and walk and live without Him, He will allow me to have what I choose.

But we all know that without Jesus there is no life, so what I choose in leaving Jesus is death.

God bless all!!

That sounds pretty good. The only difference there is that I believe not only that Jesus died for ALL my sins (none of them had been committed yet when He died), but that the sinner himself died there (Me). (“I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me…”–you can’t believe that verse, can you!?). Look at my signature. What if those verses are really true and mean what they say!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

If water means baptism, it is difficult to understand why our Lord rebuked
Nicodemus for his ignorance. Christian baptism was not yet instituted, nor
had the facts that it signifies occurred yet, namely the death, burial and
resurrection of Christ. So Nicodemus could not understand “water” to mean
baptism. Yet Christ expected this teacher of Israel to know about being
born of water, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these
things?” Evidently, Christ meant something other than baptism, which
Nicodemus could have known from the Old Testament Scriptures.

The very first thing Jesus does in public to begin His ministry is get baptized. He does this before He preaches, teaches, performs miracles, etc.

**Matthew 3:13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.**

In this event of water and spirit, the dove is the symbol of the Holy Spirit.

John the Baptist created quite a commotion in the area. He rebuked the political leaders for their sins (for which he later got his head chopped off), and he call the religous leaders a brood of vipers…before Jesus even came to be baptized.

Matthew 3:7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

Nicodemous was aware of what transpired at the Jordan river with John the Baptist. The political and religous leaders knew about John the Baptist, and Nicodemous was a religious leader. Jesus rebuked him because Nicodemous knew what was going on.

Baptism was associcated with water and spirit from the beginning, and Jesus was baptized before His ministry even began.

God bless all!!!

 

[elvisman]

I’ve given you plenty of Scripture, and there is a lot more. Just make sure that you know that you know that you know that you have been regenerated. If not, all this talk is useless to you anyway. God Bless

I was regenrated at baptism - so were you. The only difference is - you don’t believe in what Scripture has to say about it.

The only reason Jesus rebuked" Nicodemus is because he (Nicodemus) as a teacher of Israel should have known about the baptism that was prophesied in Ezekiel 36:5:
"I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts."
**
Your mistake is in thinking that you are saved at the moment of regeneration/rebirth. Salvation/sanctification - again - is a lifelong journey. It’s a process whereby we have a moral assurance of the promises of Christ - IF and ONLY IF we endure to the end.

**If you’re not a sinner in need of sanctification, I’d certainly like to shake your hand because I’ve never met a sanctified human being. Is that what you claim for yourself?

 

[catholic_daddy]

The very first thing Jesus does in public to begin His ministry is get baptized. He does this before He preaches, teaches, performs miracles, etc.

**Matthew 3:13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him**.

In this event of water and spirit, the dove is the symbol of the Holy Spirit.

John the Baptist created quite a commotion in the area. He rebuked the political leaders for their sins (for which he later got his head chopped off), and he call the religous leaders a brood of vipers…before Jesus even came to be baptized.

Matthew 3:7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

Nicodemous was aware of what transpired at the Jordan river with John the Baptist. The political and religous leaders knew about John the Baptist, and Nicodemous was a religious leader. Jesus rebuked him because Nicodemous knew what was going on.

Baptism was associcated with water and spirit from the beginning, and Jesus was baptized before His ministry even began.

God bless all!!!

Yikes!

 

[catholic_daddy]

Even if I bought a ticket! … rats.

You know, that’s actually the problem with most people the world over. They are holding a ticket that they paid for! Someone once said this–you can put all the religions of the world of the world in one bag and it has this label on it: “DO”. But true Christianity stands by itself and has this label on it: “DONE” !!!

 

[benedictus2]

It has been said that most heresy begins with a wrong view of God. So we must begin by understanding who He is. That’s a life-long task,eh! But we know this: he has attributes that have always been his nature and ALWAYS will be. He is BOTH JUST and LOVING, and he CANNOT ever do anything to violate either of those parts of his nature. We get into trouble when we start to say what WE would do if WE were in that situation. God says his ways are far above our ways, as high as the heavens are above the earth. “Past finding out” He says in Isaiah. Scripture CLEARLY teaches that multitudes will spend eternity in hell. I wish it wasn’t so. But God provided a way to satisfy BOTH his love and his Justice. That way was the cross, where the sinless Son of God took our sins upon himself and died in our place.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES on him WILL NOT PERISH but will have everlasting life!”

But this is all just evasion.

Cath Dad, I can’t understand your and other protestant’s fear of answering a simple question.

I have posed this to many others and every single one of them would not answer.

Is it that you do not understand the question?

As I said before the the question is addressed to you. This time around and I am not asking if God would do it but rather if YOU would do it.

So for the third time.

Would YOU create human beings just so you can can burn them in hell for all eternity?

That is all I am asking. Yes or No. Very simple.

 

[benedictus2]

C’mon dude, any study, understanding or interpretation of scripture you have is dictated to you by your church.

That’s not understanding scripture. :nope:

Well dude, an understanding arrived at by the Church which Christ founded on Peter is a million times more accurate by one arrived at by your SUPER SIZED EGO.

But what else is private interpretationi all about but Sola Ego.

And Sola Ego IS DEFINITELY NOT UNDERSTANDING SCRIPTURE.

 

[allhers]

That sounds pretty good. The only difference there is that I believe not only that Jesus died for ALL my sins (none of them had been committed yet when He died), but that the sinner himself died there (Me). (“I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me…”–you can’t believe that verse, can you!?). Look at my signature. What if those verses are really true and mean what they say!!!

We Catholics know and believe this too, however, there is more to it than that. We are responsible for our personal sins after Baptism. That is why Jesus gave us the Sacrament of Confession also, as a former poster told you, we will be forgiven 7 times 70 (that means always), as long as we ask for forgiveness. We know He is faithful to forgive when we are faithful to repent. He didn’t die in vain for us, there is a reason for all this pain and suffering He went through for us, it wasn’t in vain!!! If you weren’t brought up in the Catholic Church you didn’t learn all of this yet, thats all, there is always more…we are lifelong students as a wonderful Priest I know put it once.
Here is another verse for you:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.’ Now if it were all said and done, why wouldn’t we all enter? Why does St. Paul encourage us to run the race?

 

[Protestant101]

Hi Protestant101,

Here is something from the Bible, which is also history, that is more accurate.

Baptism is more than just a “public declaration” of being born again…it is part of being born again. The second part involves the Spirit.

John 3:4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

being born of water is equal to being born of the Spirit…according to Jesus…the two are essential in answering Nicodemus’ question…as well as as ours!!

God bless all!!!

OK, lets explore the principle of what you said. Is one Scripture really “more accurate” than another?

 

[Bramble]

That is understanding Scripture better than you because the church is the custodian of the Scriptures. She is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15).

**So what? You’re reduced to taking her word on her teachings being truth without knowing for sure. She claims that only she can rightly interpret Scripture; therefore, you have no way of knowing whether or not she’s telling the truth because she’s excluded you from her ability to rightly divide the word. **

All authority on heaven and earth was given to the Church because Jesus said so (Matt 16:19, 18:18, John 16:14-15, 20:22-23). ALL Authority - not just some.

That’s the one unfortunate thing that the prideful and stubborn mind of the anti-Catholic will never understand.

**But one thing the prideful and stubborn mind of the anti-Catholic understands, and notes, is the conspicuous absence of the word, “CHURCH” from the verses you’ve cherry-picked above.

Not a good job of interpretation…** :nope:

ALL authority - you have none.

Neither do you. Again, according to your Church only she has the ability to rightly divide scripture (the Mother of all circular arguments, by the way), and you’ve differentiated yourself from the Church in this statement:

**My word **means nothing if it is in opposition to the Church.IOW, you are not the Church, and cannot rightly divide the scripture, and so you have no way of knowing with certainty whether or not she teaches truth.

:tiphat:

 

[benedictus2]

**So what? You’re reduced **to taking her word on her teachings being truth without knowing for sure. She claims that only she can rightly interpret Scripture; therefore, you have no way of knowing whether or not she’s telling the truth because she’s excluded you from her ability to rightly divide the word.

Simple reasoning.

Christ founded the Catholic Church.

Christ promised her Church the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead her into all truth.

Since the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church against whom the gates of hell will not prevail as Christ promised.

Ergo, Christ’s church tells the truth.

Since we believe the what is written in Scripture as Christ’s words, then we have a way of knowing why her Church tells the truth.

And that way of knowing is because we know that Christ’s promise cannot fail.

We know the Church is telling the truth because Christ said so.

 

[catholic_daddy]

I was regenrated at baptism - so were you. The only difference is - you don’t believe in what Scripture has to say about it.

**The only **reason Jesus rebuked" Nicodemus is because he (Nicodemus) as a teacher of Israel should have known about the baptism that was prophesied in Ezekiel 36:5:
"I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts."
**
Your mistake is in thinking that you are saved at the moment of regeneration/rebirth. Salvation/sanctification - again - is a lifelong journey. It’s a process whereby we have a moral assurance of the promises of Christ - IF and ONLY IF we endure to the end.

If you’re not a sinner in need of sanctification, I’d certainly like to shake your hand because I’ve never met a sanctified human being. Is *that *what you claim for yourself?

There is a past, present and future tense of salvation for sure. But the past tense is HUGE, and I wonder why the RCC doesn’t treat it the way the NT writers do. You could sort of compare the three tenses of salvation to the birth of a child into a family (past tense) and then the growth of the child (present tense) and then the child leaving the home to get married (future tense). All are important, but the birth is HUGE and literally life-changing. It happened, will never be repeated and is irreversible!! The new birth is all of that and more! Yet you guys seem to rank it somewhere around, say, an exchange student coming to live with you!
Here’s a few verses that talk about that momentous occasion:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has CAUSED US TO BE BORN AGAIN to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

“See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and in Him YOU HAVE BEEN MADE COMPLETE, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11and in Him YOU WERE ALSO CIRCUMCISED with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 HAVING BEEN BURIED with Him in baptism, in which you WERE ALSO RAISED with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He MADE YOu ALIVE together with Him, having forgiven us ALL our transgressions, 14having CANCELED OUT the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3For YOU HAVE DIED and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.”

 

[Protestant101]

There is a past, present and future tense of salvation for sure. But the past tense is HUGE, and I wonder why the RCC doesn’t treat it the way the NT writers do. You could sort of compare the three tenses of salvation to the birth of a child into a family (past tense) and then the growth of the child (present tense) and then the child leaving the home to get married (future tense). All are important, but the birth is HUGE and literally life-changing. It happened, will never be repeated and is irreversible!! The new birth is all of that and more! Yet you guys seem to rank it somewhere around, say, an exchange student coming to live with you!
Here’s a few verses that talk about that momentous occasion:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has CAUSED US TO BE BORN AGAIN to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

The “inheritance which is imperishable” is JESUS, not people. The “new birth” is not a one time event. It is an ongoing process of victory after victory. But the "new birth is a state of being; not a state of doing. That’s why we are called “Human Beings.” God created us to be this way; and because we have fallen into sin (a state of being) we need to “be born again,” we need to allow Jesus to bring us back to being a human being. “Being” as in being like Christ in all areas of our life. Do you know anyone who has done this instantly? History shows that that just does NOT happen. I think the Catholic Church would be in basic agreement to this post?

 

[catholic_daddy]

We Catholics know and believe this too, however, there is more to it than that. We are responsible for our personal sins after Baptism. That is why Jesus gave us the Sacrament of Confession also, as a former poster told you, we will be forgiven 7 times 70 (that means always), as long as we ask for forgiveness. We know He is faithful to forgive when we are faithful to repent. He didn’t die in vain for us, there is a reason for all this pain and suffering He went through for us, it wasn’t in vain!!! If you weren’t brought up in the Catholic Church you didn’t learn all of this yet, thats all, there is always more…we are lifelong students as a wonderful Priest I know put it once.
Here is another verse for you:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.’ Now if it were all said and done, why wouldn’t we all enter? Why does St. Paul encourage us to run the race?

We also believe we are responsible for our sins! We just believe Christ already paid for them. That kind of GRACE gives us a gratitude at a level you can’t even understand! And it causes us to serve God with a motivation that means LIGHT YEARS more to him than when people serve him out of obligation and fear of punishment!!! YOU JUST DON’T GET THIS.