ACLU wants apology after student leads graduation crowd in reciting Lord's Prayer

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pinay said:
This is not quite accurate. It is not a secret that President Obama attends church (sometimes the Baptist church, sometimes Episcopalian, sometimes United, but church nonetheless) and therefore, completely establishes that church is a cool thing to do. Bush did the same before him and even encouraged faith-based charities.

Harry Reid teaches Gospel Doctrine class in the LDS Church and Nancy Pelosi still hasn’t quite learned the difference between Church and State and still goes pleading to the Catholic church to do stuff for her.

Christian values are not verboten anywhere.

If anything - it’s the parents’ thinking that the public school is where their children learn/practice religion that messes things up for everybody.
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🙂 It is not quite the situation that the only public place where they are not verboten are the catacombs of Rome, true enough.
In terms of the public sphere though, praying in america is now considered about as crass as farting once was.
 
Cristiano said:
I think that next time the students should simply recite the “Bible Hymn of the Republic”. Oops! I meant the “Battle hymn of the Republic”: 🙂

[Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps;
His day is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His day is marching on.

I have read a fiery Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel;
“As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal”;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Since God is marching on.

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat;
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet;
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free;
While God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! While God is marching on.

He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.](
)
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Is *God Bless America *still considered an American national anthem?
 
pinay said:
In a democratic society of 5 wolves and a sheep, democracy is great… unless you’re the sheep.
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So, those who publically pray are basically comparable to wolves salivating over the poor lonely, secular sheep?
Is that your positon?

It gives a whole new perspective ot Jesus saying to the fallen Samaritan woman “I thirst”.

Wolf-ish?
 
Gift_from_God said:
The First Amendment states that Congress can’t respect the establishment of a religion or prohibit free practice thereof. It is therefore not built on Christian morals since it does not adhere to Christianity
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Thanks for the clarification. Like I said I know very little about the US. I got the impression from movies and the like that it was a Christian nation but I know and you know that movies are not reliable sources of information. 😊
 
pinay said:
In a democratic society of 5 wolves and a sheep, democracy is great… unless you’re the sheep.
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In a democratic society of 5 sheep and a wolf, democracy is great… unless to protect the minority you feed the five sheep to the wolf. 😉
 
Darryl1958 said:
So, those who publically pray are basically comparable to wolves salivating over the poor lonely, secular sheep?
Is that your positon?

It gives a whole new perspective ot Jesus saying to the fallen Samaritan woman “I thirst”.

Wolf-ish?
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Why is it that people can’t pray in public but others can give talks about how transgenderism is normal and should be embraced in public? Or why is it wrong to display the Ten Commandments in front of a court building but forcing movies about homosexual couples upon grade school students is okay? Isn’t that also enforcing someone’s values upon someone else? 🤷 I dunno, I think I’m in over my head in this discussion but I’m seeing a lot of hyprocrisy in the way society works these days.
 
Gift_from_God said:
The First Amendment states that Congress can’t respect the establishment of a religion or prohibit free practice thereof. It is therefore not built on Christian morals since it does not adhere to Christianity
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You are wrong! Congress can make no law respecting an establishment of religion! That is quite different from saying that Congress can’t respect the establishment of a religion.

The second sentence is a non sequitur.
 
karow said:
In a public, tax-supported event, basically yeah.
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Isn’t that prohibiting the free practice of religon and a restriction of free speech?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 
SamH said:
Isn’t that prohibiting the free practice of religon and a restriction of free speech?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Exactly. I can understand the state saying public schools or any public facility cannot formally santion a religion or religous activties (though I think that could be argued too), but it really confuses me that people think it is fine that the state takes away their personal right to free speech and their personal right to freely practice their faith.

Jesus said: *"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” *
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
I prefer not to judge their intent for choosing to pray. This is part of the problem I have with all this. Pray is suddenly being accused of being something other than communicating with God.
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Every May and June stories make the news about valedictorians or other graduates charged with making an address using the podium as a bully pulpit (and that term is particularly apt here). Sometimes they make a controversial political commentary; other times they make their address is a vernacular other than English as it’s spoken for wider communication (i.e., “standard” English). Sometimes they pray.

All of it’s inappropriate, in my opinion.

I have nothing against prayer. I like to think I lead a rich prayer life myself. My husband and pray the Peace Chaplet with our daughters every night after dinner, for example. I say the Rosary with Fr. Groeschel while I’m commuting. I’m totally pro-prayer. 😃

But what I do have a problem with are folks who use prayer to make a public “statement,” whether that’s to demonstrate their religiosity, or toss the opening salvo in a legal maneuver, or end up in the papers or thumb their nose at their school. None of that is an appropriate use of prayer, any prayer, in my opinion. And why else would an 18-year-old leading a crowd in a non-religious, public arena be doing but trying to make some kind of statement?

This pray-as-public-statement cheapens the act of praying, in my opinion.

Let’s put it another way. A couple of posts back someone recounted being at a public event where Dine prayers were invoked, presumably as a “cultural diversity” statement. I find that inappropriate and offensive because it was using a group’s spirituality/religion as a statement. Furthermore, I’d bet my house that media would lose their collective minds if a high school valedictorian invoked a Muslim prayer, in Arabic, at a public school graduation. Pundits from across the political spectrum would have fodder for weeks if something like that were to happen. And again, I’d be angry too, not because I have some kind of Islam- is-bad mindset, but because I don’t want prayer being used to make a political/public statement.

In my way of thinking, if you’re truly praying to talk to God, you pray in private, at a religious service/event, or in a house of worship. You don’t stand in front of a bunch of people (for whom you don’t have the faintest idea as to their religious affiliation) at a publicly-sponsored graduation.
 
Gift_from_God said:
Nope, none. There just happens to be laws that are compatible with Christianity
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Nope, that is not the reality of it. The founding principles of the United States did not come from a vacuum but were influenced by and at least partially based on the dominant Judeo-Christian culture and its values. So neither you nor the “this was founded as a Christian country” crowd are correct. The historical truth is much more complicated than that.
karow said:
Every May and June stories make the news about valedictorians or other graduates charged with making an address using the podium as a bully pulpit (and that term is particularly apt here). Sometimes they make a controversial political commentary; other times they make their address is a vernacular other than English as it’s spoken for wider communication (i.e., “standard” English). Sometimes they pray.

All of it’s inappropriate, in my opinion.
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Appropriateness is not the issue. It is a question of freedom speech. The First Amendment was designed to protect speech that others, even the majority, consider inappropriate.
karow said:
But what I do have a problem with are folks who use prayer to make a public “statement,” whether that’s to demonstrate their religiosity, or toss the opening salvo in a legal maneuver, or end up in the papers or thumb their nose at their school. None of that is an appropriate use of prayer, any prayer, in my opinion. And why else would an 18-year-old leading a crowd in a non-religious, public arena be doing but trying to make some kind of statement?
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I understand that and I think you could be right. The issue, though, is that this is an issue of both freedom of speech and of religion. Appropriateness of message is not a test of the constitutionality of your right to freedom of speech.
karow said:
This pray-as-public-statement cheapens the act of praying, in my opinion.

Let’s put it another way. A couple of posts back someone recounted being at a public event where Dine prayers were invoked, presumably as a “cultural diversity” statement. I find that inappropriate and offensive because it was using a group’s spirituality/religion as a statement. Furthermore, I’d bet my house that media would lose their collective minds if a high school valedictorian invoked a Muslim prayer, in Arabic, at a public school graduation. Pundits from across the political spectrum would have fodder for weeks if something like that were to happen. And again, I’d be angry too, not because I have some kind of Islam- is-bad mindset, but because I don’t want prayer being used to make a political/public statement.

In my way of thinking, if you’re truly praying to talk to God, you pray in private, at a religious service/event, or in a house of worship. You don’t stand in front of a bunch of people (for whom you don’t have the faintest idea as to their religious affiliation) at a publicly-sponsored graduation.
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Again, I think your assessment of the appropriateness is fairly accurate but I don’t feel that is the issue. The issue is a matter of fundamental rights.
 
pinay said:
Yep, that too.

Doesn’t apply to this thread though.
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I think that it does. You are telling the majority of the people that they are not allowed to do something because a minority does not want to participate? This is not forcing a minority into participation, this is not taking away from the minority.
 
SamH said:
Isn’t that prohibiting the free practice of religon and a restriction of free speech?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Telling someone not to lead a prayer at a government event isn’t the same thing as prohibiting from praying at all, or they telling them can’t say certain prayers, or they can’t practice a particular religion, or they have to practice a state-sponsored religion.

Not even close.

The free practice of religion means we, all of us, are free not to practice religion and are free from being forced to practice a particular religion or belief system. But it doesn’t mean we can foist pray off on the public.

Would you be offended if you were lead through a Muslim prayer at a public event? How about a Theravada Buddhist recitation? A Jewish prayer in Hebrew? A Native American shaman ritual?
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
Appropriateness is not the issue. It is a question of freedom speech. The First Amendment was designed to protect speech that others, even the majority, consider inappropriate.
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Socio-cultural appropriateness isn’t the issue, but appropriate legally is.

Remember: Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.
 
karow said:
Every May and June stories make the news about valedictorians or other graduates charged with making an address using the podium as a bully pulpit (and that term is particularly apt here). Sometimes they make a controversial political commentary; other times they make their address is a vernacular other than English as it’s spoken for wider communication (i.e., “standard” English). Sometimes they pray.

All of it’s inappropriate, in my opinion.

I have nothing against prayer. I like to think I lead a rich prayer life myself. My husband and pray the Peace Chaplet with our daughters every night after dinner, for example. I say the Rosary with Fr. Groeschel while I’m commuting. I’m totally pro-prayer. 😃

But what I do have a problem with are folks who use prayer to make a public “statement,” whether that’s to demonstrate their religiosity, or toss the opening salvo in a legal maneuver, or end up in the papers or thumb their nose at their school. None of that is an appropriate use of prayer, any prayer, in my opinion. And why else would an 18-year-old leading a crowd in a non-religious, public arena be doing but trying to make some kind of statement?

This pray-as-public-statement cheapens the act of praying, in my opinion.

Let’s put it another way. A couple of posts back someone recounted being at a public event where Dine prayers were invoked, presumably as a “cultural diversity” statement. I find that inappropriate and offensive because it was using a group’s spirituality/religion as a statement. Furthermore, I’d bet my house that media would lose their collective minds if a high school valedictorian invoked a Muslim prayer, in Arabic, at a public school graduation. Pundits from across the political spectrum would have fodder for weeks if something like that were to happen. And again, I’d be angry too, not because I have some kind of Islam- is-bad mindset, but because I don’t want prayer being used to make a political/public statement.

In my way of thinking, if you’re truly praying to talk to God, you pray in private, at a religious service/event, or in a house of worship. You don’t stand in front of a bunch of people (for whom you don’t have the faintest idea as to their religious affiliation) at a publicly-sponsored graduation.
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Of course, because Jesus prayed and spoke with well grounded Christians, right? He did not speak and pray with Jews and Pagans, He only spoke with well formed Christians and He only did that in a nearby Catholic Church, correct? Jesus never spoke in public about God and He never told us to speak in public about God and He never told us to share the faith–correct?

Spread the Gospel to world was a mandate, not a suggestion.
 
karow said:
Remember: Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.
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That is simply not true. Freedom of religion is the only statement included in the first amendment…it does not say anything about being free from religion. American citizens are not given the gaurantee of being free from any religion having an impact or presence in their life…rather it gaurantees each ciziten the right to freely practice their religion of choice (or none if they so choose), without ANY interference by the state and the constitution does NOT say that practice can only be done in private.
 
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