Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez compares refugees to baby Jesus

[Rhubarb]

Aside from the moving of goal-posts by having previously said “international borders” to “boundaries of primary governance”, You’re still missing the point entirely by latching onto the semantics. Let’s play with the analogy though.

The Holy Family fled Judea because of a local policy (regarding the death of a family member) put in place in Judea - not a Roman policy. The Holy Family then went to Egypt, where said local policy in Judea did not apply. They left the boundaries of one political entity into the boundaries of another to escape a certain doomed fate in Judea. That’s what makes them refugees.

Saying “escaping the USSR to Poland” is like saying “escaping the Roman Empire for Egypt”. That’s not the same thing as escaping Judea to Egypt. Do you see how the analogy falls apart?

A better analogy would be would you consider a family of Jews who escaped from Berlin to Bulgaria or Denmark (countries who famously saved their nation’s Jews while under Nazi control) be considered refugees. I certainly think so.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

That isn’t of much consequence on US boarder policy. The Pope is concerned with treating refugees humanly and compassionately. I applaud Pope Francis for his efforts, and his use of the holy family’s plight in order to call attention to the needs of refugees.

The pope does not have to manage the boarder of our country. And I don’t think he has enough information about it to make specific recommendations outside of the ethical treatment of refugees, migrants and displaced persons.

I have a problem with a politician who uses the holy family fleeing to Egypt to further their opinion on boarder policy. A politician should not be playing fast and loose with the term refugee, and the holy family.

 

[Inisfallen]

A politician should not be playing fast and loose with the term refugee, and the holy family.

Certainly not.

But, by any reasonable definition (and, with all due respect, I don’t think your hairsplitting about intra-Empire borders amounts to a reasonable definition), the Holy Family were, at one time in their lives, refugees.

I’m sorry. I don’t mean to be rude, I really don’t. But I do believe you’re really stretching the point about borders here, in order to serve your point about US immigration policy.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

But, by any reasonable definition

Since the definitions of some of the terms involved here are imprecise, a politician should not be using the holy family to justify their policy. A Congressman should be using precise language if they want to pursuade public opinion about a certain policy in their favor.

If the Holy Father, or a Catholic school, would like to make the comparison, then I see no reason not to. The terms do not need to be as precise to make a point about the ethical treatment of people.

I hope you can see the distinction.

 

[Inisfallen]

Since the definitions of some of the terms involved here are imprecise, a politician should not be using the holy family to justify their policy.

Politicians should, of course, be careful when using the Holy Family to justify any policy.

That said, the actions, words and circumstances of the Holy Family, and the Gospels, and the teaching of the Church, and what we learn from them, are absolutely the best justification for any policy of any government.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez does not believe that.

 

[Inisfallen]

Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez does not believe that.

I don’t know what’s in her mind, or her heart, or her soul. Perhaps you do.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

What does that have to do with the policy that she supports? You can read all about the positions she takes on immigration and abortion. Is not contained solely in her heart, it’s basically public information. I’m sure her position on policy helped her get elected.

 

[Inisfallen]

What does that have to do with the policy that she supports? You can read all about the positions she takes on immigration and abortion.

I’m familiar with her positions on immigration. I do not agree with her in every respect. I do in some.

As to her position on abortion, I do not stand in solidarity with her on this one. I’m not at all sure that her position on legal abortion invalidates her position on any other issue.

I’m sure her position on policy helped her get elected.

I’m not so sure. As I’ve said before, I know that district. I grew up in it and lived in it for years as an adult. I’ve posted about what I think the reasons for her electoral victory were.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Saying “escaping the USSR to Poland” is like saying “escaping the Roman Empire for Egypt”.

Yes, that’s my point.

That’s not the same thing as escaping Judea to Egypt.

If we’re talking about the years 3-6 AD then it is the same thing.

A better analogy would be would you consider a family of Jews who escaped from Berlin to Bulgaria or Denmark

Your analogy is no different from mine.

 

[Theo520]

Wrong again, :Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, one of Democrats’ biggest stars from this midterm cycle, is now officially the [youngest woman elected to US Congress. Ocasio-Cortez — a democratic socialist who rose to fame after upsetting Democratic Rep. Joe Crowley earlier this year — easily won her race for [New York’s 14th Congressional District on Tuesday, with over 75 percent of the vote.

You didn’t refute a thing I said.

She effectively won the seat in the Dem primary, where she only got about 14k votes.
Whomever won the primary was the only dem candidate on the ticket in the General election.

Her 14k votes was well below 9% of registered democrats in her district.

 

[HCTC]

Her 14k votes was well below 9% of registered democrats in her district.

In an election the only voters who count for anything are the ones who cast a vote. It is less than meaningless to report on the voters who did not go to the polls.

 

[LastStand]

When all else fails, bring up muh Nazis right?

 

[LastStand]

Sounds good to me. The irrelevant specter of a long-dead, universally-despised regime that arose due to a unique set of circumstances has haunted public policy long enough. It is time for the West to shed its unearned guilt complex and face the situation through the lens of the present day.

 

[LastStand]

It is my understanding that the bulk of the 5000 sitting South of the border have never made any effort to cross. Granted, they want to cross, but showing up and asking to cross is not illegal.

The only reason they did not cross because we met them with soldiers, policemen, and concertina wire. They declared that they were coming across our border hoping that we would be too weak to meet them for fear of making martyrs. It was an excellent attempt at 4th Generation Warfare that we met with a decisive show of strength.

You seem to have a strong condemnation toward these people. I wonder what it might be like for you to be in one of these “camps” for six months, and have no way to communicate with any American citizen.

They could have just stayed home and made their country great for the first time.

I think you may not realize that people who are in this country working who don’t have documentation have little or no access to any social services, so they are not able to “leech”. Many will not even avail themselves of things to which they could have access because they don’t want to risk being discovered as undocumented. Despite living under the radar and in constant fear of being separated from their family members, living in the US is still better for them than where it was in the country of origin.

Wrong. This does not include the cost of schooling their children, their criminal victimization of American citizens, or the distortions they impose on the economy.

This is not a bad idea, how would you go about that, since they don’t have a residence to send a bill?

I agree that there are some who are entitled, demanding, and oppositional. But I don’t think this describes the majority.

When the Romans were fighting Hannibal, he sent a surrender demand to Rome. They sent him a rent bill for the occupation of public land. The point is to answer their outrageous demand with defiance. The self-appointed moral superiority of those who deem themselves oppressed must be smashed.

 

[guanophore]

The only reason they did not cross because we met them with soldiers, policemen, and concertina wire.

Ok. It is the duty of the Nation to protect the borders. Are you saying that Mexico was unable (too weak) to protect its borders?

I think Mexico allowed them to cross because they did not want to remain in Mexico and were headed to the US.

They declared that they were coming across our border hoping that we would be too weak to meet them for fear of making martyrs.

I don’t know who “they” are. I don’t doubt that some people said this, or may believe this, but I don’t think this applies to the majority.

Actually the media may be their biggest advocate. The two kids who have died in custody have been all over the news.

They could have just stayed home and made their country great for the first time.

It is a great ideal, but easier to say than to effect. People who feel helpless and victimized are not in a position to become leaders. When a person is intimidated by gangs or government militia, speaking up may mean nothing but death.

But you are right, the social teaching of the Church is that we must work with these people to create the conditions that support the common good, and human dignity.

This does not include the cost of schooling their children, their criminal victimization of American citizens, or the distortions they impose on the economy.

Actually, we are better off educating people, even if they are undocumented. Education is the greatest factor in the prevention of criminal behavior.

It is also a fact that undocumented persons are much more likely to be victims of criminals than to be perpetrators. They are afraid to access protections of law enforcement so they are vulnerable.

I do agree that persons who commit crimes do not deserve the chance to be sheltered, temporarily or permanently. This, however is a small minority of the whole. Now you may say that entering illegally is a “crime”, and technically it is, but it is a civil crime, not a criminal (violent) offence against persons or property.

I agree that there is a drain on the economy. There are many undocumented persons who pay income tax and social security who will never be able to reap the benefits. There are also drains on the health care system because they do not have health care coverage. However, the drains of impoverished American Citizens far outweigh these.

The self-appointed moral superiority of those who deem themselves oppressed must be smashed.

How can this be done in such a way that respects the basic human dignity of every person?

 

[Vouthon]

“The émigré Holy Family of Nazareth, fleeing into Egypt, is the archetype of every refugee family.”

– Pope Pius XII, 1952, in Exsul Familia Nazarethena

“ Arise, and take the child and his mother, and flee into Egypt ….” (Matthew 2:13).

‘Jesus was a refugee’, Pope Francis says ahead of World Refugee Day

And Jesus said unto us: I am the hope for them that are in despair, the helper of the helpless, the treasure of the poor and the doctor of the sick. ( The Epistula Apostolorum: Epistle of the Apostles (140 - 150 A.D.) )

Do you remember that passage from the Gospel of Matthew, where the Holy Family are attempting to flee into exile across the border from a mad ruler…and Mary and Joseph are detained as criminals and separated from the infant Jesus, who is subsequently put in a cage in a detention centre?

Of course, the actual Nativity we are all familiar with - through endless kindergarten and school plays, and festive greeting cards - doesn’t end like that. While King Herod is off slaughtering the innocents to try and kill future claimants to his throne, Mary and Joseph safely cross the border into Egypt, where they are given sanctuary far away from the Judean monarch’s infanticidal policies.

But sadly, in this day and age, such a fate - separation of refugee children from their families at a border - became a stark reality, as the world looked aghast at the ugly face of the Trump administration.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez recently became embroiled in a heated media storm.

I, for one, completely agree with her and found myself feeling somewhat embittered by the vitriolic claims that she was exploiting the Nativity story and the festive holiday in the interests of narrow political opportunism and just couldn’t give it a break to honour the sacred day.

The fact is that in fleeing Judea for Egypt - with nursing mother and child in toe - to escape the despotism and paranoia of King Herod in Judea, as he set about murdering baby boys, the Holy Family did become prototypes for families the world over and throughout history, who are forced by war, famine, discrimination or desperation to uproot themselves and seek shelter in an alien land for their personal safety.

There is undeniable social commentary at the heart of the Christmas story and of Christianity more generally. This is is evident to everyone who studies the texts in detail.

(continued…)

 

[Vouthon]

When the pregnant Mary contemplates the significance of her role as the future Mother of the Redeemer of the Human Race, in Luke’s literary narrative, with the potent words, " God my Saviour…has looked with favour on the lowliness of his maidservant…He has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts. He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly; he has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty . " ( Luke 1:47-53 ), this should be a red-alert to readers that conventional societal norms are being called into question and that the Christ-child represents the birth of a hope that, while transcending this earthly world, radically inverts its values.

This is the longest speech delivered by a woman in the New Testament and it has proved to be massively influential in the history of Christian thought. Mary begins by glorifying the greatness of God (Luke 1:46), acknowledges her devotion to the Lord (Luke 1:48), and then promises deliverance to the poor and oppressed through the reversal of unjust social structures, courtesy of the salvific hope she carries in her womb: the as-yet-unborn Jesus (Luke 1:50-53).

The Creator of the universe incarnates in the womb of a powerless Jewish peasant girl, wife to a humble carpenter. His first hours are spent in a manger intended for animal feed because there is no space for his family in the village inn or upper rooms, and his parents then, for his own safety, are compelled to flee their homeland for an uncertain future in another country to escape the clutches of a power-hungry monarch. His coming is announced first to shepherds (powerless country folk, on the peripheries of Judean society) and foreigners (the Magi), symbolising the focus of his mission as an adult to the excluded and marginalised. This baby boy, the victim of so much misfortune at his birth - the polar opposite of a royal upbringing or heroic origins, as with an ancient Greek or Roman aristocratic hero - grows up to be (according to the Evangelists) the "Prince of Peace " and true King of Kings, friend of prostitutes, sinners, the disabled, the poor, sick, the alien and the oppressed.

Yes , the Holy Family were refugees. And this is essential to understanding the intended meaning of the story. The Holy Family, denied any welcome and giving birth to Jesus in a stable, until finally given sanctuary not in their own country but in a foreign land by people of another race. The word to focus on is pheuge , “flee,” from which comes the word “refugee,” the one who flees. Thus even Matthew’s angel labels the Holy Family as refugees.

(continued…)

 

[Vouthon]

As Daniel J. Harrington, S.J., a New Testament scholar, reminds us in his commentary on Matthew in the Sacra Pagina series:

Egypt, which came under Roman control in 30 B.C., was outside the jurisdiction of Herod. Egypt had been the traditional place of refuge for Jews both in biblical times (see 1 Kgs 11:40; Jer 26:21) and in the Maccabean era when the high priest Onias IV fled there.

His teaching:

’ I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in…For truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me " (Matthew 25:38)

According to Ms Ocasio-Cortez’s religion, the Catholic Faith, the principles of the natural law dictate that due to the “unity of all mankind, which exists in law and in fact, individuals do not feel themselves isolated units, like grains of sand ” for which reason “ the nations are not destined to break the unity of the human race, but rather to enrich and embellish it by the sharing of their own peculiar gifts and by that reciprocal interchange of goods ” ( Pope Pius XII, 1939) , meaning that " the natural law itself, no less than devotion to humanity ", urges that “ ways of migration be opened to people forced by revolutions in their own countries, or by unemployment or hunger to leave their homes and live in foreign lands ” because “ the sovereignty of the State cannot be exaggerated to the point that access to this land is, for inadequate or unjustified reasons, denied to needy and decent people from other nations ” ( Pope Pius XII, 1952 ).

Good on Ms. Ocasio-Cortez for preaching and living by these principles this Christmastime! Thank you for reminding us all of the events of the Christmas story.

 

[Stephen_C]

So. She still won the primary. And she won the general election getting 78.2% of the vote.
And what does this has to do with " Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez compares refugees to baby Jesus"