Amazon Synod and Pagan Rituals

[billsherman]

I hardly think setting up formation centers to teach indigenous theology and eco-theology as one of the suggestions in the document is aligned with Christ’s commissioning of the disciples/apostles.

For fun, I looked up ecotheology and indigenous theology in the most inauspicious place imaginable (the internet), and learned that not only are they legitimate areas of scholarly inquiry, but that they have some pretty remarkable origins.

I’ll spare you the links - you can look them up as easily as I could - but this comes from wikipedia:

Ecotheology is a form of constructive theology that focuses on the interrelationships of religion and nature, particularly in the light of environmental concerns. Ecotheology generally starts from the premise that a relationship exists between human religious/spiritual worldviews and the degradation of nature. It explores the interaction between ecological values, such as sustainability, and the human domination of nature. The movement has produced numerous religious-environmental projects around the world.

And this comes from NAIITS (formerly North American Institute for Indigenous Theological Studies):

In the 21st century, much has changed. We still focus our energies on helping people walk out life in a good way. Now however, it is a path centred in the person, work, life, teaching, death and resurrection of Jesus that is also rooted in Indigenous cultures and histories. Whether in the development of new theologies or in our forums for dialogue and teaching, it is this understanding that we speak of as our path toward wholeness.

It’s fairly obvious that the theological traditions referenced in the document are generations old, and have been pursued by scholars across the world and among religious traditions. They should not be dismissed out of hand. Rather they should be embraced for bringing greater intellectual diversity to the table. That is never a bad thing.

 

[Nmc]

I disagree.

 

[Emeraldlady]

In light of your list and returning to my original question…

Emeraldlady:

Have you always thought this of the Popes or is this new to your faith? When teaching your children this principle, who do you teach them to follow if they don’t like a teaching of the Pope?

You do know that the pope is only infallible ex-cathedra, right? That’s all popes (including Francis, Benedict XVI, JPII, JPI, Paul VI…Pius X…Leo XIII…Pius V…

That doesn’t sound right. There are only 2 ex cathedra teachings. Are you saying we can pick and choose on everything else?

Where does this idea come from?

Even if we include your list of ex cathedra statements, outside of those, who decides what is ‘infallible’ or must be accepted and what is not? Say I’m a new Catholic or thinking of becoming one. How do I determine what teachings are to be accepted in faith and what I can reject? Contraception isn’t on your list.

 

[gracepoole]

I get what you’re saying and I completely agree. There is no authoritative list, which is confusing and at times really difficult to navigate. And obviously, as you’ve pointed out, everything not included in that very small list is not in the realm of prudential judgement.

 

[Nmc]

“the working document of the Pan-Amazonian synod is a direct attack on the Lordship of Christ,” he said. “It says to people, ‘You already have the answers, and Christ is just one among many sources of answers.’ This is apostasy!”
“The Catholic Church is a church that has one faith, one sacramental system, and one discipline throughout the whole world, and therefore we’ve never thought that each part of the world would define the Church according to particular cultures," he said. “That’s what’s being suggested in this working document of the Amazon and in Germany.”
Cardinal Burke

 

[Nmc]

I didn’t feel the need to address a response to such a wk attack/question. Other Catholics wont bend under that accusation either. Your accusations that I am against the chair of St. Peter is annoying. I don’t think the Pope is leading the charge in what is going on there. But time will tell.
In response to your question I will point to St. Athanasius.
When nearly all the Bishops were embracing heresy he -one man alone with the grace of God, defended and preserved the faith. So frankly your comment is lame…as though a majority equals truth or rightness. It was a majority that crucified Christ!

 

[Bataar]

In light of your list and returning to my original question…

MiserereMeiDei:

Emeraldlady:

Have you always thought this of the Popes or is this new to your faith? When teaching your children this principle, who do you teach them to follow if they don’t like a teaching of the Pope?

You do know that the pope is only infallible ex-cathedra, right? That’s all popes (including Francis, Benedict XVI, JPII, JPI, Paul VI…Pius X…Leo XIII…Pius V…

That doesn’t sound right. There are only 2 ex cathedra teachings. Are you saying we can pick and choose on everything else?

Where does this idea come from?

Even if we include your list of ex cathedra statements, outside of those, who decides what is ‘infallible’ or must be accepted and what is not? Say I’m a new Catholic or thinking of becoming one. How do I determine what teachings are to be accepted in faith and what I can reject? Contraception isn’t on your list.

In general, anything taught by the church is to be considered infallible. You might have to do some research to determine what the church’s teaching is on something to verify it is a church teaching and not just an opinion of a local priest, bishop, etc. It’s called the Universal Ordinary Magisterium. If the pope, in union with the bishops teaching something, it is to be considered infallible. Take the idea of Guardian Angels. There is no Ex Cathedra statement defining the existence of Guardian Angels, but the church teaches that they exist and that we all have one so we have to accept it under pain of heresy.

 

[Nmc]

Belief in the Real Presence is actually not difficult. It is simple really. The Bishops ought to ensure the liturgy is conducted as though Christ is actually there. After that it’s even more simple. You instruct the faithful to ask the Lord for the grace of faith in the real presence. The Lord gives it, period.

 

[Emeraldlady]

In general, anything taught by the church is to be considered infallible. You might have to do some research to determine what the church’s teaching is on something to verify it is a church teaching and not just an opinion of a local priest, bishop, etc. It’s called the Universal Ordinary Magisterium. If the pope, in union with the bishops teaching something, it is to be considered infallible. Take the idea of Guardian Angels. There is no Ex Cathedra statement defining the existence of Guardian Angels, but the church teaches that they exist and that we all have one so we have to accept it under pain of heresy.

I agree. This is the attitude of assent that I’m familiar with as a cradle Catholic.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Belief in the Real Presence is actually not difficult. It is simple really. The Bishops ought to ensure the liturgy is conducted as though Christ is actually there. After that it’s even more simple. You instruct the faithful to ask the Lord for the grace of faith in the real presence. The Lord gives it, period.

It was the point that lead many disciples to abandon Jesus and the point that most Protestants cannot accept.

John 6 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum.

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?”

 

[Nmc]

That was pre last supper, passion, death and resurrection. What I am saying is this: it is God’s will that all men come to the knowledge of the truth. We know Christ is really present in the Eucharist. So where there is a sincerity of desire to believe in the truth, it really is as simple as saying Lord, help my unbelief. If someone is scandalized by the truth or they don’t want to believe… even if it is true, I have no answers for that.

 

[Nmc]

There will always be those that choose the approval of the world over Christ. But to those followers that left Jesus over eating His flesh I have to think that despite all the time following Him they didn’t know who He was.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

In Spain protestants were allowed their congregational meeting spaces, which had to be nondescript. They were not allowed to proselytize. That’s as far as one need go.

If only I could have a confessional state.

 

[Emeraldlady]

That was pre last supper, passion, death and resurrection. What I am saying is this: it is God’s will that all men come to the knowledge of the truth. We know Christ is really present in the Eucharist. So where there is a sincerity of desire to believe in the truth, it really is as simple as saying Lord, help my unbelief. If someone is scandalized by the truth or they don’t want to believe… even if it is true, I have no answers for that.

The verse was referenced when Vatican II addressed the problem of peoples difficulty grasping the meaning of the Real Presence. It was one of the reasons for restoring the Eucharistic Prayer and Communion Rite in the vernacular. From the Council document Mysterium Fidei -

20. And St. Bonaventure declares: "There is no difficulty over Christ’s being present in the sacrament as in a sign; the great difficulty is in the fact that He is really in the sacrament, as He is in heaven. And so believing this is especially meritorious. " (7)

21. Moreover, the Holy Gospel alludes to this when it tells of the many disciples of Christ who turned away and left Our Lord, after hearing Him speak of eating His flesh and drinking His blood. “This is strange talk,” they said. “Who can be expected to listen to it”

 

[billsherman]

In response to your question I will point to St. Athanasius.
When nearly all the Bishops were embracing heresy he -one man alone with the grace of God, defended and preserved the faith. So frankly your comment is lame…as though a majority equals truth or rightness. It was a majority that crucified Christ!

Fair enough, but how do you know Cardinal Burke is correct? How do you know that the people who wrote and promulgated the document are incorrect?

No one who opposes the Church ever thinks they are anything but true to what Catholicism is supposed to be. Pope Michael assuredly thinks he is the Athanasius of his time. How do you know that he is wrong?

David Bawden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

I think I should mention that Mother Earth to the Amazonian tribes isn’t some metaphor. She’s an actual personal higher being that embodies the entire the Earth. She governs fertility, Earthquakes, the forest, and mountains. Her Amazonian name is “Pacha-mama”.

 

[graciew]

She wrote mother…
Cathecism of the Catholic Church:

1. There is a solidarity among all creatures arising from the fact that all have the same Creator and are all ordered to his glory: May you be praised, O Lord, in all your creatures, especially brother sun, by whom you give us light for the day; he is beautiful, radiating great splendor, and offering us a symbol of you, the Most High. . .

**May you be praised, my Lord, for sister water, who is very useful and humble, precious and chaste. . . *
*May you be praised, my Lord, for sister earth, our mother, who bears and feeds us, and produces the variety of fruits and dappled flowers and grasses. . . *
Praise and bless my Lord, give thanks and serve him in all humility.212

 

[graciew]

Don’t spread ignorance , please.
It is quite obvious you have no clue. None ,of the Ancient civilizations , call it Incas among others and this is mixing remote tribes ( numerous , very numerous ones)in Amazonia with all the indigenous tribes and people and groups in South America.
Or shall we make a salad with Sioux and Mayans and the Cherokees and whatever other seasoning suits you to add ?
So no. You shouldn t mention what doesn’t apply in the least .

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

I…don’t understand. Can you say that in a sentence?

 

[graciew]

I am terribly bad typing on my phone…but other posters aren’t …
Note that Emeraldlady didn’t use capital letters and neither does the CCC in this case.
God bless you!