Amazon Synod and Pagan Rituals

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Right, but that was the teaching of one individual pope. The infallible universal ordinary magisterium is the pope and the bishops in union with him. If all the bishops had agreed with him it would have been a different story. As it happens, his brother bishops took him to task.
 
I think traditionalists dislike synods since 2013. Before that there were synods under Pope Benedict but no one was really complaining because they knew that the bishops weren’t discussing radical changes or putting out documents with questionable language that could be interpreted in five different ways, two in an orthodox fashion and three in a heterodox fashion. And in the end you had a Pope who people could count on to defend the faith and filter out any nonsense that did make it through.

Since then, there have been synods in 2014, 2015, 2018, and 2019 (did they happen this often before?) and each one has had controversy that was introduced by the people in charge:
  • 2014 was the first family synod - halfway through there was a document put out by the synod organizers that had positive language about gay marriage and other controversial passages, the bishops revolted and got it quashed, but it soured people toward the one next year.
  • 2015 had people worried about giving divorced and married people (w/o annulments) communion, Cardinal Kasper gave a speech about this. Then there was controversy over how the people writing the final document were chosen and a group of 12 cardinals sent a letter to the Pope with concerns that the synod was rigged for certain opinions. As a result of this one, we got a document that was very ambiguous on this topic and it remains a very controversial document to this day.
  • 2018 had very questionable language in the IL document about homosexuality and many were concerned that the Church would be making more “accommodations” for gay people; thanks mainly to the African bishops, this language got axed from the final document. But then at the end they put in some very vague language about “synodality” that no one had seen until they were to vote on the final document. This raised suspicions that future synods would be used to push through heterodox opinions.
  • 2019 of course has the whole married priests debate, which was enough controversy on its own, but then the IL comes out and it’s full of all of this language suggesting that there is truth in Amazonian religion that can be put on the same level as Catholicism, plus some language bashing western civilization and perpetuating the “noble savage” myth.
It also doesn’t help that without fail Pope Francis appoints the same like-minded people over and over to prominent positions for each of these synods that all seem to lean in one direction as far as their opinions are concerned, and this just leads to further suspicion that the synods are being rigged one way or the other. So yes, I think traditionalists are sick of the constant synods and the controversies that keep popping up at each one. The best thing would probably be to take a break for five years or so but that is unlikely to happen; if anything they’ll start holding even more. I don’t think the topic for the next synod has been revealed yet but it’s pretty much a guarantee that it will have the same, mostly self-made problems that all of the previous ones have had.
 
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That’s a tough one. I guess when push comes to shove we rely on the reigning pope to clarify ambiguity in the collective teaching of the ordinary magisterium. St John Paul II reaffirmed the teaching of the universal ordinary magisterium in regards to women’s ordination. St Paul VI did likewise in regards to contraception. Both are binding teachings, but neither are examples of ex cathedra statements / dogmas.
 
St John Paul II reaffirmed the teaching of the universal ordinary magisterium in regards to women’s ordination. St Paul VI did likewise in regards to contraception. Both are binding teachings, but neither are examples of ex cathedra statements / dogmas.
I think that a response to a dubia replied that the teaching of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis was declared as set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium and was to be held definitively as belonging to the deposit of faith.

It may not have been stated ex cathedra, but there doesn’t appear to be any ‘wiggle room’ regarding the infallible nature of the teaching.
 
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Yes, they were infallible by virtue of the ordinary magisterium, not the extraordinary magisterium of the Pope.
 
To summarize, as I understand it, a pagan fertility ritual which invokes generative forces (demons) to cause pregnancy was performed in the Vatican, with a Franciscan participating, as the Pope watched.
Actually NO. The Vatican press office was asked about it and declined comment. So, there isn’t an official interpretation about what the ritual actually was. The Franciscan partaking in the ritual is NOT bound to be fooled, whatever that ritual was he knew what he was partaking in - so it has to be correct.

It was probably catholic -and correctly so- a form of dancing while praying. The prayers, in themselves, would contain NOTHING against the faith. The organizers were 2 small catholic lay movements, so they can be expected to be supervised and accompanied in their elaboration.

However, every single element of the ritual was of indigenous inspiration - there is nothing against dancing and singing.
invokes generative forces (demons)
So this is the essential part that the priests accompanying would certainly have rectified to be correct in doctrinal terms. And the Indians would have accepted that since they are catholic.
I read a tweet that said sources confirmed
Tweets have no value whatsoever. The Vatican declined comment because it was too complicated to elaborate on - not worth the effort, when the synod was about to start. But it resembled the “giving back to earth ritual” which is animist and pantheist, not spiritist.
If my source was wrong, someone let me know.
Your sources were wrong!! And several bishops who work in the Amazon are starting to explain their approach and experience - which lends a completely different perspective to things. I liked the testimony by Dom Medardo de Jesús Henao del Río, Apostolic Vicar of Mitú (Colombia).


Finally, there were other elements that were “embarrassing” and have not been mentioned in this thread. During the meeting pope Francis was offered and put on his finger a “ring of tucum” that was popularized by Brazilian bishop Pedro Casaldáliga, now 91 yo, and a known exponent of liberation theology.

Pope Francis (and the Vatican) know very well the impact and lack of comprehension these elements were bound to cause on the average western viewer, and that unscrupulous polemic mongering media would be quick to exploit that confusion. The fact is I haven’t read a comprehensive explanation coming from English-speaking media, and in today’s world that can only be attributed to ill will and and malice on part of the media.

Pope Francis, being south American, and a friend of the indigenous populations, is not bound to be fooled, and understood everything -in situ- on the spot. As a father is expect to be understanding of his children.


@graciew
 
Pope Francis (and the Vatican) know very well the impact and lack of comprehension these elements were bound to cause on the average western viewer
I bet they had an impact on the average 16thC Jesuit missionary too
 
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There is an Excellent Prudent Time and Place for everything.
enabling the infiltration of pagan rituals into ONE OF JESUS’S HOUSE OF PRAYER,
is not at all a Godly thing. period.
Common religious dialogue does now allow for this false appearance of ‘humanizing.’
~
The record of Francis since 2013, speaks for itself. No where near the overall witness,
of the Excellence of Paul vi, John Paul ii, and Emeritus Benedict xvi.
~
I’m not going to reference something Friend of God, Bishop Fulton J. Sheen spoke on the radio,
before 1950, describing our very day, whereby I believe we are passing a turning point,
but Jesus Christ Himself taught beware of those who garner mass appeal.
~
Even the Disciples were perplexed at JESUS THE CHRIST’s candor, no matter Station in Life,
Office in Life, nor seeming Piety in Life. Herod, controlled The Sadducee, and The Sadducee played Pilate and Herod against one another. Annas the High Priest had an illegal night time Mock Trial.
They had religious, civil, and punishment authority under Herod. And Jesus Beloved Redeemer openly Taught, shown Miracles, Signs & Wonders, and rebuked all the Folds of the nations in Galilee, and all of Israel, so The Sacredness of Human Life, The Least Among us regardless of size or appearance physically, proven by science, is paramount as John Cardinal O’Conner taught.
Evangelium Vitae was a result of His Eminence’s Request after CENTESIMUS ANNUS 100 year anniversary of Rerum novarum of the dangers of Collectivism. We all need to be stewards of The Earth, that is not the question. The Divine Revelation does not need pagan rituals at all to teach us anything, let alone how to be good stewards of the earth. The modern day secularist humanist naturalists (heretical forms of godliness, ref. in numerous places in The Holy Bible) have been used by guised ‘collectivists’ in propaganda for quite some time. As has other needed dialogues with real working toward mutual understanding solutions, turn coated upon over the decades, real human conditions. You may as well say, ‘workers of the world unite,’ by these ‘palatable’ playing at heartstrings honey speech rhetoric manipulators terminologies and using real human heart breaking concerns.
Prudence and a Vast Sustained Sign of Life and Salvation through Godly Charity, (ref. JOHN PAUL II AT THE COMMEMORATION OF THE FIFTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE ENCYCLICAL " EVANGELIUM VITAE ". Monday, 14 February 2000) by all of society joined with The Divine Revelation of JESUS THE ONLY DIVINE ANOINTED ONE, and The Pastoral, Educational, and Charitable Works of The Pastoral Universal Church of Jesus The Christ. In other words, every human being.
 
Yes, they were infallible by virtue of the ordinary magisterium, not the extraordinary magisterium of the Pope.
Infallible is infallible, essentially does it really matter how this was declared?
 
"Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we must be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to rouse us from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is the foundation of all stability.” - Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, ref. “Tolerance” by Archbishop Fulton Sheen
~
" If I live for a week ,. If I live for 20 years , my last breath will be in support of the sacredness of every human life . - John Cardinal O’Connor ref. https://sistersoflife.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Spring2010.pdf
" Filled with this certainty, and moved by profound concern for the destiny of every man and woman, I repeat what I said to those families who carry out their challenging mission amid so many difficulties: 135 a great prayer for life is urgently needed, a prayer which will rise up throughout the world. Through special initiatives and in daily prayer, may an impassioned plea rise to God, the Creator and lover of life, from every Christian community, from every group and association, from every family and from the heart of every believer. Jesus himself has shown us by his own example that prayer and fasting are the first and most effective weapons against the forces of evil (cf. Mt 4:1-11). " ref. Evangelium Vitae (25 March 1995) | John Paul II
~
We’ve had this Divinely Holy Spirit Inspired Clarion Call for well over twenty years, as a renewal of the importance of Family, Life and Salvation through Steadfast Godly Charity for The Gospel of Life. Shouldn’t the ‘side-tracking’ stop?
~
The Justice and Peace of The Eternal God through JESUS THE ONLY DIVINE ANOINTED ONE THEOPHANY IN THE FORM OF A MAN, as Rivers of Living Water → Springing Forth to Eternal Life, with The Joy of The Lord as each of our Strengths be with you and yours. Well wishes & prayers with all of my heart be with you.
 
Uh ! Pieces of ceiling falling, That is bad…scary.
I do not know how he does at his age to keep that pace…and not run away! 😱
 
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adgloriam:
YOU ARE NOBODY TO FORBID IT!! THAT’S THEIR FREEDOM.
The Catholic Church forbids it. Who are you to allow it?
And you just registered an account to write that as your first post? Is that a second account or did you actually, just by chance, join the forum just now?
 
Theologians studying the indigenous mentality is somehow not a reassuring concept to me, any more than was Father Drinan studying the politics of abortion on behalf of pro-abortion policies.
 
I’m not going to reference something Friend of God, Bishop Fulton J. Sheen spoke on the radio,
before 1950, describing our very day
May I ask how many problems were caused in South American by their northern neighbors around that time?? Would you care to comment on that?? And what did our beloved friend, of good memory, have to say about that injustice??
We all need to be stewards of The Earth, that is not the question.
It’s being done, behold the moralist naysayers.
As has other needed dialogues with real working toward mutual understanding solutions, turn coated upon over the decades, real human conditions.
Real human conditions, real needed dialogue, real working toward mutual understanding solutions. EXACTLY, what is being done.
‘palatable’ playing at heartstrings honey speech rhetoric manipulators terminologies
the misguided moralism towards this encounter with fellow man the synod is aiming at: that moralism is what’s rhetoric manipulation in pharisaic sense of rhetoric manipulation is.

[John Paul II lived through the holocaust, through communism, he’d be first to support this synod as his reflections -quote up thread- in “crossing the threshold of hope” clearly showed.]
 
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Theologians studying the indigenous mentality is somehow not a reassuring concept to me, any more than was Father Drinan studying the politics of abortion on behalf of pro-abortion policies.
neither is it reassuring that you’re bashing the south American Indians when abortion in western countries is reaching astronomical figures.
 
Uh ! Pieces of ceiling falling, That is bad…scary.
I do not know how he does at his age to keep that pace…and not run away! 😱
Pope Francis is amazing!! The diplomacy (and pressure) he’s dealt with in war torn countries - the way media tried to bash him about the “Rohingya” people in Bangladesh and how he did more than anyone else to help them - by his presence without offending or causing scandal. Pope Francis is close to anyone suffering.
 
neither is it reassuring that you’re bashing the south American Indians when abortion in western countries is reaching astronomical figures.
No, I’m not bashing South Americans Indians. But I do think that infanticide ought to be discouraged. Moral theology has a pretty long history and is already well developed. Let’s not promote either infanticide or abortion. It doesn’t take a lot of study to reach that conclusion.
 
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