Amazon Synod and Pagan Rituals

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JimG said:
It doesn’t take a lot of study to reach that conclusion.
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Well, from a rhetoric point-of-view you just made a “straw man argument”. But I did address it in anticipation. And my response stands solid (continue reaching to the neighbor next door, before pretending to lecture people of another continent accusing them of evil your own society does on a much greater scale.)
 
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By chance I joined just now and this is my first thread. I didn’t join the forum to discuss this topic specifically, or to respond to you.

Now, don’t change the subject and answer the question.
 
There’s an old Soviet Propaganda piece that you are echoing here and in a lot of your replies. It was said in response to criticism of their genocide of Christians and Clergy who opposed the state. “And you hang …”

Are you suggesting that we support abortion here? Are you suggesting that we practice it? That we approve of it? Don’t confuse Empire America with the Catholic Church.
 
He has always been close to the people, the suffering, the vulnerable and quite honestly like many many of our priests here. And laypeople too accompanying and volunteering. Well you know Brazil, and favelas and the need. Similar here.
At the same time, his Archidiocese was very vast and varied. All sorts of issues. All sorts of people. But then this is the whole Church, the whole world, a huge structure … I quite honestly cannot imagine what is on a Pope’s shoulder.
And the faith of these men…I mean, who in their right mind would say “yes” without believing Jesus is with them ,with us.
I do not know, there is so much from the glory of God when one sees how small and yet the strength and serenity that Popes have.
 
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This is a blog , Jim. We cannot jump into every bandwagon published honestly. It doesn’t do anyone any good.
And we do not know nor have the elements to prove either way often times.
In fact there may be tribes which have had no other human contact.
The media in US is going particularly alarmed or even alarmist maybe, I don’t know, and I don t know why exactly, but this has been pointed out in our news too.It isn t like this everywhere else…
I already wrote this but there are over 300 languages spoken in Amazonia coming from at least 20 different linguistic families. A huge variety to deal with and a challenge.
 
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ProdigalMichael said:
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adgloriam:
You don’t get challenge me.
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Yes, I do. I asked a simple question: Who are you to allow something the Catholic Church forbids?
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Pope Francis allowed it.
Pope Benedict XVI allowed it.
Pope John Paul II allowed it.
Pope Paul VI allowed it.

You think you are church -you are not- you lied.
 
graciew said:
This is a blog , Jim. We cannot jump into every bandwagon published honestly. It doesn’t do anyone any good.
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The blog is within the Italian L’espresso newspaper, that caused a feud over ownership between the Mondadori group (Italy’s most prominent publishing house) and Berlusconi himself (who dispenses any introduction).

The blog article is a “mistranslated butchering” (purposed) of a serious interview bishop Kräutler gave in Portuguese - which in its full form I consider extremely complex on a human level.

In the interview (given to swissinfo.ch -that publishes in 10 languages- and published exclusively in Portuguese) bishop Kräutler warns against “demonizing” the indigenous people (which is precisely what some are trying to do on this thread.)

www.swissinfo.ch

Bispo do Xingu diz que deputado "demoniza indígenas"

O bispo da Prelazia do Xingu e presidente do Conselho Indigenista Missionário (CIMI) adverte também que a Amazônia sofrerá um novo golpe se o governo não tomar providências drásticas. O bispo Erwin Kräutler, de 69 anos, austríaco naturalizado brasileiro, comanda desde 1981 o maior bispado do...
www.swissinfo.ch www.swissinfo.ch
 
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adgloriam said:
The Vatican press office was asked about it and declined comment.
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Not a good start, but they seem to have you.
adgloriam said:
It was probably catholic
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Not a good beginning.
adgloriam said:
The Vatican declined comment because it was too complicated to elaborate on - not worth the effort,
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Was this their reasoning when they said “no comment,” or is it yours?
adgloriam said:
But it resembled the “giving back to earth ritual” which is animist and pantheist, not spiritist.
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That’s not really much of a defense now is it?
adgloriam said:
Pope Francis (and the Vatican) know very well the impact and lack of comprehension these elements were bound to cause on the average western viewer,
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That doesn’t seem like a very responsible thing to do. And then to refuse comment? My goodness, that’s just reckless.
adgloriam said:
and that unscrupulous polemic mongering media would be quick to exploit that confusion. The fact is I haven’t read a comprehensive explanation coming from English-speaking media, and in today’s world that can only be attributed to ill will and and malice on part of the media.
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You sure it has nothing to do with:
adgloriam said:
But it resembled the “giving back to earth ritual” which is animist and pantheist, not spiritist.
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Is it really fair to pin it all on them if the Vatican is doing things that look scandalous? I have to admit that I don’t think that’s very fair of you, or the Vatican…who has refused to comment.
adgloriam said:
Pope Francis, being south American, and a friend of the indigenous populations, is not bound to be fooled, and understood everything -in situ- on the spot.
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Assuming that’s true, you might think he’d direct the Vatican to make comments to clear it all up. Don’t you think it might be important not to scandalize the flock? Or does the flock not matter?
 
adgloriam said:
Don’t get in over your head @JimG, some of the foremost theologians of our day are trying to understand the indigenous mentality and in what sense that relates to abortion in the the West - which we have to say: is so much more numerous, and prevalent in the US an Europe.
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The “indigenous mentality” doesn’t make it not murder. And murdering more or fewer people per capita than the US and Europe doesn’t make your murders better or worse. The problem is people who do it…even when they live in the jungle. You can’t seriously be trying to defend this as well.
 
JimG said:
Infanticide in the Amazon?

Bishop Kräutler Also Knows That in the Amazon They Practice Infanticide. But He Does Not Want It To Be Punished - Settimo Cielo - Blog - L’Espresso
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Are Catholics really defending the practice or like the missionaries of old, are they approaching evangelisation as a process of showing how Christ brought a new and bloodless way of sacrifice? That’s how the cannibal tribes in Oceania were evangelised. Going in like the old time colonists forcing a foreign ideal onto an ancient people is actually not Christs way.
 
FrancisFan43 said:
Ex-shaman’s grandson on Vatican ‘pagan’ ritual: ‘I…couldn’t believe my eyes’ | News | LifeSite

So not only are Amazonian chiefs saying it is pagan, literal son of a shaman are calling it pagan. These sorts of things do not belong in ANY society, let alone on Vatican grounds.
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LifeSiteNews right?

They got a “Filipino” (Igorot tribe) commenting “authoritatively” on a “Amazonian” ritual…Anybody see the difference between South America and the Philippines??
The Igorot tribes are from the highlands of the Philippines. Delson said that indigenous tribes in the Amazon should be given the same catechesis offered to the Igorot by a certain Polish saint.

(…)I’m sure when the Belgium priests and missionaries began evangelizing my pagan Igorot ancestors(…)
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Better yet, LifeSiteNews “correspondent” IN ITALY “spoke with an indigenous leader from the Amazon Saturday”…Like I’m going to believe the “correspondent” could speak, or understand anything, or do serious reporting…
spoke with an indigenous leader from the Amazon Saturday
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Olá @graciew, esta é para a gente os dois 🙂
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Doesn’t matter if the shaman is Filipino or Amazonian or arabian, they know paganism is no different from one another. An occultist from France can identify an American occult ritual because occultism is no different from one another. It’s not hard to understand.

And yes Lifesite, one of the only websites that is actually trying to bring the truth to this travesty of paganism on Vatican grounds.

You do realize a Lifesite correstpondant talked with an Amazonian chiefs not too long ago, right? It’s on camera. Literally right here:

Put your bias away for just a moment and take Pope Francis’ advice and listen to the Amazonian person. No matter how you try to spin it, it is a pagan ritual. The Vatican has no right to enable these poor souls. It literally breaks the 1st commandment and breaks his duty to Shepard these people to Christ, not pachamama (or mother earth, how ever you want to call it)
 
Thanks for the article. He knows his people. And has really been serving them for a long time,
For those who wish to use google translate, it is worth to understand their perspective from Xingu specifically and as from their Brazilian context.
There is a lot of truth. in that there is demonization ,one case is what he knew and then they could intervene.
So good to read such a long an interview and directly answered, super interesting. It is our Church there present, concerned, compassionate.
And he mentions also these Grilheiros…
Muito obrigada, very interesting read.
 
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