Amazon Synod and Pagan Rituals

[gam197]

Link I am only saying the word link because I do not want to link the website you posted again. Do you realize that website is antiCatholic and considers Catholicism a cult? because that would definitely not be true.

Sorry did a quick search, did not realize a link or what their web page was but there has always been talk of the Druids, the Celtic culture and what a pagan violent culture it was yet the culture was squished by the Romans and brought into the church, not an easy task by any means.

I do not agree with what took place neither did I agree with Pope John Paul II with the Koran or Buddha controversy yet to think there is talk of a schism over this is a bit much.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Sorry did a quick search, did not realize a link or what their web page was but there has always been talk of the Druids,

No problem. That happens.

I do not agree with what took place neither did I agree with Pope John Paul II with the Koran or Buddha controversy yet to think there is talk of a schism over this is a bit much.

I agree about the Druids. I don’t think what Pope John Paul II did was right either but I really liked him as pope. I too think schism is a bit much.

 

[Nmc]

Jesus does offer us salvation and life abundantly. Except it doesn’t begin with creation. It begins with Him. “I am the way, the life and the truth.” Not creation, not mother earth, not the many spirits or the ancestral wisdom but Him.

Further:
“a corporatist attitude, that reserve salvation exclusively for one’s own creed, are destructive of that very creed(from the document)
Seriously?
Unless you eat my flesh drink my blood you have no life in you.
I suppose Jesus’ corporatist attitude or His proclamation that no one goes to the Father except through the Son were destructive of that very creed?
Assuredly Judas thought as much. He thought wow this isn’t going to result in the worldly triumph I had hoped for, so he sold him out.
This same “corporatist attitude” that went on to establish the faith nearly everywhere. The problem is that too many leaders in the church think evangelization is a feat of methods in persuasion and adult learning. Its a work of God. It’s His work.
While it is true we must work toward not abusing God’s creation, the earth itself will pass away and when we get to the other side the thing that will matter is whether we knew Him.

 

[billsherman]

Seriously?

I’m pleased you decided to read a little bit of the document, but I assure you it’s fully Catholic.

If you don’t trust the Pope, which you apparently don’t, I seriously wonder who you do trust. And why do you think those people are more trustworthy than the Pope, and virtually every Cardinal and Bishop throughout the world?

I didn’t hear anything Christian in the working document.

This is objectively wrong, though.

 

[Nmc]

Well if I was out there promoting the blessing of same sex unions I’d say I was teaching error and ought to be admonished. The message of the Gospel is not just that God loves you. The message is that Jesus Christ is the way, the life and the truth, and of most importance we cannot be reconciled to the Father except through Him. That we must repent and believe. That if we eat his flesh and drink His blood He will come and dwell in us. Meaning by virtue of our fallen human nature we are separated from God. It is by the passion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that we are reconciled to him. Indeed, Jesus is our Hero and our King. It is in His love, mercy and grace that we come to know and love Him. When we see what He has done for us we cannot help but love our neighbor and say “Lord, do for them what you have done for me.”

 

[Nmc]

Not every Bishop and Cardinal in the world I believe several Bishops and cardinals came forth with a public document outlining the heresies.

 

[billsherman]

Not every Bishop and Cardinal in the world I believe several Bishops and cardinals came forth with a public document outlining the heresies.

Do you mean the concerns published by two Cardinals? They are also the two most outspoken opponents of Pope Francis. I’m not aware of anyone else in the hierarchy complaining about it, let alone asserting heresy. That’s a ridiculously strong charge to throw at the Pope and the Bishops who prepared the document.

I’m still unsure about your answer to this question:

If you don’t trust the Pope, which you apparently don’t, I seriously wonder who you do trust. And why do you think those people are more trustworthy than the Pope, and virtually every Cardinal and Bishop throughout the world?

 

[Tolle_Lege]

This whole affair is humorous to me. For weeks leading up to the Synod, many faithful, traditional Catholics were sounding the alarm bells on the pagan overtones of the working document. Their concerns were brushed aside by the overwhelming majority of their fellow faithful as unwarranted worry, bordering on conspiracy.

And then, before the thing even officially starts, we get an actual pagan ritual within Vatican City! It couldn’t be more clear what the organizers of the event intended! Then there were explanations given that the ritual was supposed to actually represent Mary and St. Elizabeth ( yeah ok!) and the Holy Father was so unnerved that he tossed his prepared remarks away, said a Pater Noster and left.

 

[Emeraldlady]

No offense but the intellectual heaVy weights must not be doing a good job given the recent poll numbers published on belief in the true presence.

Belief in the Real Presence is a very hard thing. Jesus acknowledged that. Then the effects of the Renaissance which esteemed intellectual gifts over spiritual and intuitive gifts, led to development of the philosophy of Transubstantiation to help people find a way to be in touch with the Real Presence. Now since Industialisation, very few people have any really experience of gifts of nature and the importance of the planting and harvesting festivals to specifically thank God for the amazing things of nature He has given us to sustain our lives. It makes me wonder if the people that are so obsessed with the format of Mass and angst about how one should receive, really have got the sense of awe and gratitude that is the essence of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The great harvest festival that produced the Bread of Life to sustain us.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Do you mean the concerns published by two Cardinals? They are also the two most outspoken opponents of Pope Francis. I’m not aware of anyone else in the hierarchy complaining about it,

There have been other bishops who have spoken of concern about the synod and the documents. I just watched two of them on EWTN.

And why do you think those people are more trustworthy than the Pope, and virtually every Cardinal and Bishop throughout the world?

Our trust is in God the Holy Spirit and we are to be always in prayer for the Pope and every Cardinal and Bishop in the world. Praying that as God leads the Pope and bishops always as He promised He would, that they would be faithful to Him. The Popes and bishops are human and can err.

 

[adgloriam]

Crusader13:

I’m just amazed at the amount of effort it is taking to defend this synod and what we’ve seen so far.

You have to literally isolate all of these events and present them as if they have no connection or ties to anything pagan.

It’s not worship it’s dancing, It’s not praying it’s singing, it’s not an idol it’s Mary, it’s not pagan it’s Amazonian Christian, it’s not ritualistic it’s humanitarian, it’s not about Mother Earth, but all life. And on and on and on…

This is absurd. If it takes this much effort to explain how this isn’t what it looks like, then they probably shouldn’t be doing it.

This is where I’m coming from. How all of this doesn’t lead to confusion in the laity I’ve no idea.

Gosh @gracepoole, we are talking about a region and a people that have been enslaved, exploited, murdered, deprived - AND IT’s ONGOING !!!

THEN, the majority of them are PRIMITIVE (or close to it)!!

AND YOU’RE TELLING ME WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SCHOOLED WESTERNERS GETTING CONFUSED?!?!?!

 

[Nmc]

I wasn’t aware the Pope wrote the document. I hardly think setting up formation centers to teach indigenous theology and eco-theology as one of the suggestions in the document is aligned with Christ’s commissioning of the disciples/apostles. Paul certainly didn’t enter a town and establish schools to teach pagan religions. Indeed Christ would have told him to shake the dust from His feet. Help me out on that one, please.
Under formation and education suggestions:
From the document:

d) Amazonian Indian theology:

**It is desirable to deepen existing Amazonian Indian theology, which will allow for a better and greater understanding of indigenous spirituality and thus avoid committing the historical errors that have violated many original cultures.

The teaching of Pan-Amazon indigenous theology is requested in all education institutions.

formation plans must reflect a philosophical-theological culture adapted to the cultures of the Amazon, capable of being understood and therefore of nourishing Christian life. The Indigenous theology and ecotheology ought to be integrated for this very reason: this will prepare them for the listening and open dialogue in which evangelization Takes place.

 

[Emeraldlady]

The Popes and bishops are human and can err.

Have you always thought this of the Popes or is this new to your faith? When teaching your children this principle, who do you teach them to follow if they don’t like a teaching of the Pope?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

we are talking about a region and a people that have been enslaved, exploited, murdered, deprived - AND IT’s ONGOING !!!

THEN, the majority of them are PRIMITIVE (or close to it)!!

We need then to bring them the fullness of the Catholic faith, love and help. IMHO and what I have heard other priests say, perhaps we need to find out what in their culture is causing them to be enslaved, exploited, murdered and deprived and correct it with the gospel.

AND YOU’RE TELLING ME WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SCHOOLED WESTERNERS GETTING CONFUSED?!?!?!

Recent polls show we are not so schooled in the faith today.

 

[gracepoole]

Gosh @gracepoole, we are talking about a region and a people that have been enslaved, exploited, murdered, deprived - AND IT’s ONGOING !!!

Yes, it is and it’s horrific. No argument there.

AND YOU’RE TELLING ME WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SCHOOLED WESTERNERS GETTING CONFUSED?!?!?!

Magdalena hit the bullseye when she noted that many “schooled westerners” actually aren’t “schooled” at all. So many have confusion about Church teachings and the Church should and must be concerned about them.

 

[Nmc]

There are hundreds of people being enslaved exploited, deprived and murdered after they’re smuggled into other countries (in the US and in Italy too). That poor Bishop from Africa comes to Rome to find and lament the young women of his country working as prostitutes after they were smuggled in by these criminal NGOs.
I am all for missionaries. Send out missionaries to spread the Gospel. But spread the Gospel. All of it.

 

[adgloriam]

adgloriam:

AND YOU’RE TELLING ME WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SCHOOLED WESTERNERS GETTING CONFUSED?!?!?!

Recent polls show we are not so schooled in the faith today.

As this thread goes to show…

adgloriam:

we are talking about a region and a people that have been enslaved, exploited, murdered, deprived - AND IT’s ONGOING !!!

THEN, the majority of them are PRIMITIVE (or close to it)!!

We need then to bring them the fullness of the Catholic faith, love and help.

Lc10:29. But because he wished to justify himself, he said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
Lc 10:30. Jesus replied, “A man fell victim to robbers as he went down from Jerusalem to Jericho. They stripped and beat him and went off leaving him half-dead.
Lc10:31. A priest happened to be going down that road, but when he saw him, he passed by on the opposite side.
Lc 10:32. Likewise a Levite came to the place, and when he saw him, he passed by on the opposite side.
Lc 10:33. But a Samaritan traveler who came upon him was moved with compassion at the sight.

The Samaritan got the urgency of the fundamentals right @MagdalenaRita (Jesus didn’t say:“bring him Me”, as I’m sure the priest and the Levite went on their way to preach), I’m shocked with the amount of bigotry on this thread. We should be rejoicing the pope is receiving those people, and instead we get bigotry of all kinds…

 

[gracepoole]

I’m shocked with the amount of bigotry on this thread. We should be rejoicing the pope is receiving those people, and instead we get bigotry of all kinds…

I think this is a bit rash. I don’t think people here are expressing bigotry when they express concern for what’s happening with this synod.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I wasn’t aware the Pope wrote the document. I hardly think setting up formation centers to teach indigenous theology and eco-theology as one of the suggestions in the document is aligned with Christ’s commissioning of the disciples/apostles. Paul certainly didn’t enter a town and establish schools to teach pagan religions. Indeed Christ would have told him to shake the dust from His feet. Help me out on that one, please.
Under formation and education suggestions:
From the document:

d) Amazonian Indian theology:

**It is desirable to deepen existing Amazonian Indian theology, which will allow for a better and greater understanding of indigenous spirituality and thus avoid committing the historical errors that have violated many original cultures.

The teaching of Pan-Amazon indigenous theology is requested in all education institutions.

formation plans must reflect a philosophical-theological culture adapted to the cultures of the Amazon, capable of being understood and therefore of nourishing Christian life. The Indigenous theology and ecotheology ought to be integrated for this very reason: this will prepare them for the listening and open dialogue in which evangelization Takes place.

This is where it is helpful to have studied the history of synods throughout the whole of Church history. Synod technically means a meeting to discuss controversial issues. For example the Synod of Gangra in 340 AD discussed many unresolved issues presented by the Christians called Manichaeans. The Manichaeans refused to receive the sacraments from married Priests. That was condemned by the Synod which established that married Priests could perform valid Sacraments. (Nothing new under the sun really).

The Synod of Hippo met to discuss which of the many manuscripts were legitimately inspired. There were loads around. The Council of Nicea then moved to canonise what was decided on at the Synod.

Then there was the astounding “Cadaver Synod” in 897 which met to decide if the Church could legitimately put the corpse of Pope Formosus on trial for heresy. I could go on and on.

The Vatican is a great library of the history of the Church with a vast resource of theologians and philosophers. They also have the resource of the Pontifical Academies in the different science and humanities fields that get into ground root problems and competing ideologies to Christianity, to better understand how to guide.

A Synod to discuss the very pressing problems present in the Amazon and to discuss the ideas put forward to resolve them, is just par for the course for our wonderful universal Church. People are just ignorant to think that the Amazon synod is a departure from the usual processes of the Church.

 

[Nmc]

That is not bigotry. Go on and pull the race card. Absolutely we must work to help those in need. But its pretty pathetic to use the ‘they are suffering and dying’ excuse to shut down criticism of a document calling on the church to establish formation centers which teach indigenous religions.
We the church decry the plight of immigrants but care not a wit that they end up smuggled into a western country, forced into prostitution, at the mercy of their smugglers. No one cares about those poor. About those slaves.