ancestors of Mary

[mrS4ntA]

JesustheSavior:

If that is the case,then the New Testament plus the Old Testament are not true accordingly to your believe at least not all of it.
So your authority comes from the church and what they tell you wich they are humans and i study once that popes say they are infallible is that the reason why you don’t believe entirely in the bible?
By the way one more thing those individuals that you say are those the apostles or you are refering to individuals that study the scriptures?.Can you please specify.

Did you read what I’ve written? I said “we believe that the Bible is true and inerrant.” By having our authority coming from the Magisterium of the Church, we certainly do not discard our belief in the inerrancy of the entirety of the Bible, for the Magisterium itself teaches that!!

By individual’s interpretations I meant the practice upheld by Sola Scriptura, coming back to the original argument! To justify or to seek your authority from the Bible alone, the method of which is you own interpretation – individual’s interpretation.

 

[The_Barrister]

JesustheSavior:

But the Old Testament came from the Jews, the only one they don’t have is the New testament and is not they don’t believe in the resurrection they are still waiting there Messiah, wich is different.
So if it in yours like you said that means you have your own bible,how can that be?

Probably because Protestants took those books out of their Bible (the Apocrypha) because they couldn’t jibe their new-found beliefs with what the Lord taught the Jews, so something had to give. they thought it was better to jettison the books rather than conform their beliefs to God’s teachings.

 

[Vitus]

JesusIsTheWay:

Do you hear your own words? You say Jesus has sinned.

I did no such thing. Are you being purposely obtuse? Do not try and twist my words around. I said by taking the literal translation of the verse you gave, YOU are saying that Jesus sinned. I am not a Biblical literalist, which is a fairly new concept in Christianity.

And then you say it is possible to lead a sinless life because Jesus would not give us a commandment that we cannot keep…

Are you infering that Jesus would give us an impossible commandment?

and now I am hearing reverberating echos that Mary is the Sinless one that she DID lead a sinless life, although by your interpretation that is not supposed to be possible…

Again, I said no such thing. By YOUR definition, by YOUR quote of Romans, YOU are stating that “ALL” have sinned. I understand the verse, obviously you do not.

I have no problem with Mary leading a sinless life. Let’s look at the words of our Lord:

Mathew 9:13 "For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners"

**Mark 2:17 *"“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” ***

Apparently there are some without sin, or are you calling Jesus a liar?

I am going to cut this post short because I am getting a headache trying to keep up with your train of thought…

Truth hurts, huh?

By the way… I see you keep getting me and JesustheSavior mixed up… we are not one in the same…

Sorry about that, the similar names and the fact that you are friends and spout the same kinds of things is a bit confusing.

 

[JesusIsTheWay]

Vitus:

A very bold and dangerous statement.

We believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior. He died for our sins, He, and He alone, paid the Ultimate sacrifice for our sins. We have our relation ship with God, we confess our sins to Christ, and we try as hard as we can to stay in his good graces and do his will…

Are you saying that Catholics do not believe this?

You reap what you sow.

I am saying that is what we believe and that is why we are saved… You say that it is a bold and dangerous statement that I say that… Why? what are we missing? Why are we condemned?

 

[Tom]

JesustheSavior:

But the Old Testament came from the Jews, the only one they don’t have is the New testament and is not they don’t believe in the resurrection they are still waiting there Messiah, wich is different.
So if it in yours like you said that means you have your own bible,how can that be?

The Old Testament wasn’t canonized by the Jews until 90 a.d. Prior to this time the Apocrypha was indeed included. It was removed from the Jewish Scripture in 90 a.d. because it contained writings which were considered to support the Christian claim that Jesus was the messiah. It was then and still is today in the Alexandrian tradition, which is the Septuagint.

 

[The_Barrister]

Vitus:

Sorry about that, the similar names and the fact that you are friends and spout the same kinds of things is a bit confusing.

Yup. Also, it’s sort of arrogant to identify one’s self as *being * Jesus The Savior.

 

[MariaG]

We believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior. He died for our sins, He, and He alone, paid the Ultimate sacrifice for our sins. We have our relation ship with God, we confess our sins to Christ, and we try as hard as we can to stay in his good graces and do his will… and THAT is most important… Hey guess what, so do we. But in the Catholic Church, you get to hear the rest of the story. The story that is referred to in the Bible…Hold fast to traditions whether oral or by letter…2 Thess 2:15.

1 cor 11:2 hold fast to traditions
Mk 13:31 my words shall never fall away
Acts 20:35 Paul relays words of Jesus not recorded in the Gospels
Jn 21:25 not everthing Jesus said recorded in Scripture

There is more Scripture showing us that there are oral words of God not found in Scripture, yet we are told to hold fast to those words none the less. Much or the doctrine of Mary is from the oral Tradition the Bible talks about.

If you want Scripture for Purgatory, start a new thread and I or others will be glad to give it to you.

Question: If the Bible tells us to holdfast to those traditions, oral and written, yet you hold onto none that are not written, Who is the better Bible Christian?
Search the Scripture, don’t take my word for it, take God’s word and ask yourself where the oral word of God is if it will never pass away as the Bible says?!

Understanding of Mary comes from the Bible as well as the Oral teachings. Scripture and Sacred Tradition are Biblical. Look for yourself.
God Bless

 

[mrS4ntA]

The Barrister:

Yup. Also, it’s sort of arrogant to identify one’s self as *being * Jesus The Savior.

Can we please keep personal attacks out of this argument?

 

[The_Barrister]

JesusIsTheWay:

I am saying that is what we believe and that is why we are saved… You say that it is a bold and dangerous statement that I say that… Why? what are we missing? Why are we condemned?

Read The Letter of James, Paul’s letters to the Collossians, and Paul’s letter to Timothy. Faith without works is dead. You shall reap what you sow. Take up your cross and follow me (not just “follow me”).

Even Satan “believes” in Jesus. How could he not? If belief was all that was required, the gate wouldn’t be so narrow.

 

[The_Barrister]

mrS4ntA:

Can we please keep personal attacks out of this argument?

Sure. And the moderators might wish to use some type of programming that would prevent people from taking names that could be considered blasphemous.

 

[mrS4ntA]

MariaG:

We believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior. He died for our sins, He, and He alone, paid the Ultimate sacrifice for our sins. We have our relation ship with God, we confess our sins to Christ, and we try as hard as we can to stay in his good graces and do his will… and THAT is most important… Hey guess what, so do we. But in the Catholic Church, you get to hear the rest of the story. The story that is referred to in the Bible…Hold fast to traditions whether oral or by letter…2 Thess 2:15.

1 cor 11:2 hold fast to traditions
Mk 13:31 my words shall never fall away
Acts 20:35 Paul relays words of Jesus not recorded in the Gospels
Jn 21:25 not everthing Jesus said recorded in Scripture

There is more Scripture showing us that there are oral words of God not found in Scripture, yet we are told to hold fast to those words none the less. Much or the doctrine of Mary is from the oral Tradition the Bible talks about.

If you want Scripture for Purgatory, start a new thread and I or others will be glad to give it to you.

Question: If the Bible tells us to holdfast to those traditions, oral and written, yet you hold onto none that are not written, Who is the better Bible Christian?
Search the Scripture, don’t take my word for it, take God’s word and ask yourself where the oral word of God is if it will never pass away as the Bible says?!

Understanding of Mary comes from the Bible as well as the Oral teachings. Scripture and Sacred Tradition are Biblical. Look for yourself.
God Bless

Amen and much kudo!
This is what I’ve been trying to get accross, not to great success, I must admit.

I mean, even in light of this explicit and clear instruction, why do Protestants still hold fast to Sola Scriptura. Can’t understand… They exalt themselves as being “faaithful” followers of the written word, but deliberately ignore passages like these that defeat their own doctrine. They even took 7 books out of the OT. Get the irony?

 

[metal1633]

JesustheSavior:

Ok,that i am aware of jewish people do not believe in purgatory.And if you claim that Sola Scritura is faultiness then that means that the bible is faulty,at least that is what i understand with the answer you just gave me.

Time for an education…

Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this “place” of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the *taharah *is performed by the “Chevra kaddisha – gmilat khessed shel emet,” the “Holy Society” or “Burial Society” of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner’s *Qaddish *(or Kaddish) for their loved one’s purification.

Even the The Talmud speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b:

“The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months.” Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: “There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between.”

The completely righteous will be recorded and sealed at once for eternal life. The completely wicked will be recorded and doomed at once to Gehinnom, as it says: “And many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall rise up, some to eternal life and some to shame and eternal rejection” [Daniel 12:2]. Those in between will go down to Gehinnom and cry out and rise up, as it says: “And I will bring the third part through the fire and refine them as silver is refined and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I will answer them” [Zechariah 13:9]

Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process, and the same theme is reflected in Wisdom 3:1-7 and II Maccabees 12:43-45. Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox have always proclaimed the reality of the final purification for those who need it. It was not until the Protestant Reformers came in the 1500s that any Christians denied the idea of a final purgation before seeing the face of God.

As to sola-Scriptura…Its not the Scriptures that we find fault with. May it never be. We find fault with the SOLA Part. The Protestant notion of ONLY the bible. We LOVE the Bible. It is Gods Inspired and Infallible Word. It is quite clear from the Bible that the Bible does NOT contain ALL that God wants to teach us therefore a doctrine that limits the Word to ONLY that which has been written is flawed.

 

[JeromeHorwitz]

To All - I’ve read all the posts in this thread and am impressed with many of the arguments. However, I feel that this thread has gotten away from the original question and has turned into an Us vs Them argument. Many non-Catholics will never be convinced of a particular Catholic point of view unless it is specifically noted in the Bible only, so why waste more time with words. Let’s pray for each other and show this world that we are all God’s children by our actions/deeds.

I have an analogy, if I may.

If anyone has ever taken martial arts, you will notice that the higher level belts do not posture and try to impress everyone with their newly acquired skills. They are humble because they know within themselves what they are capable of doing and rarely get into fights, but rather resolve disputes before they escalate since most fights are brought about by clashing egos.

 

[mrS4ntA]

The Barrister:

Sure. And the moderators might wish to use some type of programming that would prevent people from taking names that could be considered blasphemous.

In all good intention, I think people pick their nicknames not to identify themselves as what the name implies. It’s simply a way of honouring. It’s not saying he is the Jesus the Saviour, he’s just acknowledging that Jesus is Saviour, that’s all…

 

[JesustheSavior]

mrS4ntA:

Did you read what I’ve written? I said “we believe that the Bible is true and inerrant.” By having our authority coming from the Magisterium of the Church, we certainly do not discard our belief in the inerrancy of the entirety of the Bible, for the Magisterium itself teaches that!!

By individual’s interpretations I meant the practice upheld by Sola Scriptura, coming back to the original argument! To justify or to seek your authority from the Bible alone, the method of which is you own interpretation – individual’s interpretation.

Sorry you feel this is an argument,for me is exchanging what you believe and what i believe.
And if that is so,why did Jesus read the Old testament in the sinagogue,and why did he say “I came to fulfill the scriptures”

 

[Salmon]

kpnuts2k:

it doesnt say that she was a sinner but it doesnt say that moses was a sinnder but he was

AmandaPS did a good job, but here’s the follow-up:

Moses was a sinner.
Deu: 32:48On that very day the LORD addressed Moses as follows: 49"Ascend this mountain of the Abarim, Mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, across from Jericho, and view the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the Israelites for a possession; 50you shall die there on the mountain that you ascend and shall be gathered to your kin, as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his kin; 51because both of you broke faith with me among the Israelites at the waters of Meribath-kadesh in the wilderness of Zin, by failing to maintain my holiness among the Israelites. 52Although you may view the land from a distance, you shall not enter it–the land that I am giving to the Israelites."

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[mrS4ntA]

JesustheSavior:

Sorry you feel this is an argument,for me is exchanging what you believe and what i believe.
And if that is so,why did Jesus read the Old testament in the sinagogue,and why did he say “I came to fulfill the scriptures”

your point is?

 

[JesustheSavior]

The Barrister:

Probably because Protestants took those books out of their Bible (the Apocrypha) because they couldn’t jibe their new-found beliefs with what the Lord taught the Jews, so something had to give. they thought it was better to jettison the books rather than conform their beliefs to God’s teachings.

Can it be possible that the catholic church added books to the bible?

 

[Paul_W]

cornerstone:

this is a dictionary definition of dead language
dead language = a language that is no longer learned as a native language

Latin is the native language learned in the State of the Vatican City.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

<<Can it be possible that the catholic church added books to the bible?>>

Well, since it was the Catholic Church that MADE the Bible, no, they did not “add to” or “subtract from” the Bible.

Please do a little research on the deuterocanonicals, the councils of the church, the canon of the Bible, and look carefully at the dates of all to see just exactly what books were considered part of the Bible for how many years. . .and just what churches “jettisoned” those Biblical books, and when.

You won’t find the Catholic church “adding to” or “removing from” Scripture.