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Tom
Guest
No, that’s history. sorry, the Catholic Church did not add to Scripture.
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ralphinal
Guest
It does say that Moses was a sinner. Remeber when God told him not to strike the rock, and he did it anyway? Disobedeance to God is always a sin. He was punished by not being allowed in the Holy Land. No form of disobedeance or doubt is ever attributed to Mary in the Bible, the same cannot be said for any other follower of Christ.
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Salmon
Guest
If any of you had the opportunity, from outside of time, to design and create your own mother, how long would you allow for her to be in the grip of satan?
Mary’s womb was the dwelling place of Jesus for nine months. Since Jesus is God, we can look at all the scriptural (Old Testament) references to the dwelling places of God and gain an appreciation for the sacredness of the fulfillment, which was Mary, herself.
Why was Moses told to remove his sandals on Mt. Sinai? Why were the rest of the Jewish people forbidden to even touch the mountain? Why did Uzziah die after touching the Ark of the Covenant?
Peace in Christ…Salmon
Mary’s womb was the dwelling place of Jesus for nine months. Since Jesus is God, we can look at all the scriptural (Old Testament) references to the dwelling places of God and gain an appreciation for the sacredness of the fulfillment, which was Mary, herself.
Why was Moses told to remove his sandals on Mt. Sinai? Why were the rest of the Jewish people forbidden to even touch the mountain? Why did Uzziah die after touching the Ark of the Covenant?
Peace in Christ…Salmon
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Mike_Rainville
Guest
Let’s not foget that missals had the English translation beside the Latin, and that Catholics, most if not all, took Latin in school, as the foundation for languages, classics, and reading Church literature. It was beginning to disappear around the seventies, but I had four years up to 1971.
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The_Barrister
Guest
Point well taken. I would hate that anything I said here actually pushed a person away from the Church.
But, again, the answer to the question is “Eve, for at least a short period of time.”
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JesusIsTheWay
Guest
The Barrister:
sigh
I am leaving this thread… please don’t drag me into anymore discussions. I am trying as hard as I can to be a good Christian and all you can do is tell me I am not saved. I try to perform good works, I minister to those who ask, and even some who don’t. I exhalt God. I pray to him, I confess to him. I have a wonderful relationship with him. He has given me many blessings, and many trials to strengthen my faith. Believe me, I am carrying my cross… You don’t know me, You don’t know what I am going through. You have no right to judge me. I believe I am going to Heaven when all is said and done. And I think that is our goal… all of us. To dwell eternally and happily with our God. I hope I see you there.
God Bless you all… good bye.
I believe that is what I am trying to do…
sigh
I am leaving this thread… please don’t drag me into anymore discussions. I am trying as hard as I can to be a good Christian and all you can do is tell me I am not saved. I try to perform good works, I minister to those who ask, and even some who don’t. I exhalt God. I pray to him, I confess to him. I have a wonderful relationship with him. He has given me many blessings, and many trials to strengthen my faith. Believe me, I am carrying my cross… You don’t know me, You don’t know what I am going through. You have no right to judge me. I believe I am going to Heaven when all is said and done. And I think that is our goal… all of us. To dwell eternally and happily with our God. I hope I see you there.
God Bless you all… good bye.
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Vitus
Guest
Again, do not mistake correction and reproof with judgementation and condemnation.
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The_Barrister
Guest
Good point. Most of what was said in this forum was rather gentle, although things can (and do) get spirited.
JITW - Jesus has made your salvation possible through His passion. Now is the time to do those things that Jesus told his disciples, so that you may also be in Heaven with them. God’s grace is wonderful.
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JesustheSavior
Guest
Tantum ergo said:
What do you mean that they made the bible?please be more specific.
J
JesustheSavior
Guest
Wich history Tom?
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The_Barrister
Guest
The Catholic Church assembled the books into the Bible, as moved by the Holy Spirit, by the Council of Hippo in 393 A.D. and the Council of Carthage in 397 A.D.
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Brian
Guest
Okay, let’s try and swing this thing back around. Name calling and derogatory comments have no place on these pages, and sadly, there is blame to be taken on both sides of the debate. Let’s move on from personal discussions…
For the earnest Bible-Christians who have added so much to this discussion, I want to lobby an olive branch and a challenge. Peace be with you! We Catholics love you deeply for the following reasons:
You’re you!
You care about your faith.
We both believe and love Christ.
We both rely upon God’s Sacred Word.
We both (as groups) try and perform works of selflessness and charity.
You are here, discussing these vital topics!
And countless other reasons…
As a small challenge:
This is tough, because we are all passionate about our respective faith and belief, but let’s pretend this is a High School or College debate. If we are to help others see our point, we must use reason and facts and data and professional delivery.
This thread is primarily about the lineage of Mary’s character, and secondarily about the sinful/less nature of the Mother of God. Since our separated (but loved) bretheren in the Protestant faiths take issue with the teachings of the Mother Church, the burden is upon them to prove that Mary was sinful.
I, and several others, have asked someone to show where it states in the Bible that Mary sinned. I received one verse from Romans that certainly does not prove that she sinned.
I, and several others, charitably rebutted with evidence that shows that it is not only Biblical but entirely reasonable and rational that Mary was sinless, yet no one has bothered to respond to these core issues.
Instead, one person has left the boards entirely, and many others are frustrated and bewildered. We can still redeem this thread. Who wants to talk about the issues?
For the earnest Bible-Christians who have added so much to this discussion, I want to lobby an olive branch and a challenge. Peace be with you! We Catholics love you deeply for the following reasons:
You’re you!
You care about your faith.
We both believe and love Christ.
We both rely upon God’s Sacred Word.
We both (as groups) try and perform works of selflessness and charity.
You are here, discussing these vital topics!
And countless other reasons…
As a small challenge:
This is tough, because we are all passionate about our respective faith and belief, but let’s pretend this is a High School or College debate. If we are to help others see our point, we must use reason and facts and data and professional delivery.
This thread is primarily about the lineage of Mary’s character, and secondarily about the sinful/less nature of the Mother of God. Since our separated (but loved) bretheren in the Protestant faiths take issue with the teachings of the Mother Church, the burden is upon them to prove that Mary was sinful.
I, and several others, have asked someone to show where it states in the Bible that Mary sinned. I received one verse from Romans that certainly does not prove that she sinned.
I, and several others, charitably rebutted with evidence that shows that it is not only Biblical but entirely reasonable and rational that Mary was sinless, yet no one has bothered to respond to these core issues.
Instead, one person has left the boards entirely, and many others are frustrated and bewildered. We can still redeem this thread. Who wants to talk about the issues?
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metal1633
Guest
I will begin.
Argument: It is perfectly biblical to believe that a person can live a perfect and righteous life.
Support: Job is called by God Perfect and Righteous. Jobs friends accuse him of Sin. God rebukes Jobs friends for accusing Job of sin when in fact he did not sin. Jobs friends had no right to accuse him.
Conclusion: It is pefectly biblical to believe that Mary never sinned.
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The_Barrister
Guest
Wonderful answer!
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Richard_Lamb
Guest
The fact that it is not in the bible does not make it untrue. This would render every document not biblical untrue.
but since you want to insist on Sola Scriptura, where in scripure are the books of the bible?
By the way the Ancsestors of Jesus were not Sinless either (Except for Mary that is)
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Peg
Guest
To my fellow lovers of Christ,
I hope to help our protestant friends to understand typology. Jesus used typology in interpreting the OT and he taught it to the apostles. That is why they talk of going through the Red Sea with baptism.
In typology, the forshadowing in the OT NEVER excedes the NT fulfillment. Using that principle, there can be nothing in Eve or the Ark of the Covenant that is better than Mary. As Eve was created sinless, so was Mary. As the Ark was the holiest object in the world because it held the manna, the commandments and the rod of Arron, symbolizing Christ as the true bread, the word of god and the rod showing authority. Mary like wise is the most perfect created person in the world.
Just like Jesus spoke in parables, God in his scripture speaks in types. This concept of types is supported by many verses in the Bible. The language that is used in Luke talking about Mary visiting Elizabeth is the same wording used when David brings the Ark to the holy City. The same word is used to describe John leaping in the womb as to describe David leaping before the Ark. The same language is use to describe the overshadowing of the Ark by the Holy Spirit as to describe the overshadowing of Mary. This is a concept that many protestant scholars use. I find it quiet fascinating and love to study it. I hope you learn from it too.
If anyone knows of a good book on the topic of typology, please share it with me. Thanks for the stimulating discussion.
I hope to help our protestant friends to understand typology. Jesus used typology in interpreting the OT and he taught it to the apostles. That is why they talk of going through the Red Sea with baptism.
In typology, the forshadowing in the OT NEVER excedes the NT fulfillment. Using that principle, there can be nothing in Eve or the Ark of the Covenant that is better than Mary. As Eve was created sinless, so was Mary. As the Ark was the holiest object in the world because it held the manna, the commandments and the rod of Arron, symbolizing Christ as the true bread, the word of god and the rod showing authority. Mary like wise is the most perfect created person in the world.
Just like Jesus spoke in parables, God in his scripture speaks in types. This concept of types is supported by many verses in the Bible. The language that is used in Luke talking about Mary visiting Elizabeth is the same wording used when David brings the Ark to the holy City. The same word is used to describe John leaping in the womb as to describe David leaping before the Ark. The same language is use to describe the overshadowing of the Ark by the Holy Spirit as to describe the overshadowing of Mary. This is a concept that many protestant scholars use. I find it quiet fascinating and love to study it. I hope you learn from it too.
If anyone knows of a good book on the topic of typology, please share it with me. Thanks for the stimulating discussion.
M
mrS4ntA
Guest
The point is, you can’t say you’ve been “saved” when you are still alive on this Earth, when you are still on “probation” – you ARE saved when your time here has ended and you’ve entered Heaven for eternity! I do believe this difference in our dictionaries fuels this endless argument. sigh
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jimmy
Guest
Look in Luke chapter 1 where the angel Gabriel tells Mary that she shalt conceive a child. Mary respondes, “How can this be since I do not know any man.” The word shalt is in the future tense which means she will in the future concieve a child. Her response is like a vow of chastity. She is basically saying how since I vowed chastity. The angel then tells her that she will be concieved by the Holy Spirit.
Now for sinlessness there are many reasons but here is only one. Look at where Gabriel calls her full of grace. To be full of Gods grace you must be sinless because what it means to be full of grace. It is through Gods grace that she stayed sinless. Jesus was sinless because he is God. Mary was sinless because of Gods grace.
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jimmy
Guest
Do you remember when Moses did not trust God so he went ahead to look and God told him that he would never see the promised land. God told him this because he did not trust God. It is a sin not to trust God
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jimmy
Guest
Why did you protestants take 7 books out of the bible. If you don’t accept those 7 as holy scripture why not just take the other 66 books out of the bible then you have it nice and easy, you have no books to follow. The apostles never warned about other gospels they did not have the gospels to read. They did warn about the false teachers like Martin Luther.
I go to the latin mass sometimes and it is beautiful. It is not to hid anything. It was in latin so that it would not change. The readings and the homily are in english.
Tose passages don’t say it explicitely but they certainly do say it. Read some articles about it by Catholics. Go on any catholic apologetics site.
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