Animals / Hunting / Michael Vick

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Hunting animals for fun is wrong. If one is going to hunt, then he/she needs to use everything that can be used of the animal. (for money only would also be wrong!) Look to the example of the Native Americans. They hunted what they needed, and used everything that was usable. There’s really no need to hunt today because there’s plenty of meat available in stores.
Humans began eating meat, AFTER the flood destroyed the vegetation. Vegetarian is a healthier lifestyle, when done correctly.
The deer wouldn’t starve if we didn’t kill all the wolves (God’s most beautiful creatures:heaven:) and other predators.
Torture of animals is always wrong, and allowing them to suffer needlessly is also wrong. The way animals are slaugtered today is not humane, they’re treated like crud while they’re alive, and I find it disgusting that they’re raised simply to kill. Think about it, it’s flesh. In your mouth. Yuck.
I’ve said hunting is unnecessary, as it is, but I will say this: anyone who feels it’s necessary for them to eat meat should be the ones to slaughter and prepare it themselves. That’s my humble, therefore correct opinion :rotfl:(a visiting priest said that in a homily once. Well, I thought it was funny.)
 
I’ve stopped hunting and detest the practice!!!

However, I cannot say that I am not at camp with my family (Males only!!!) during the November Buck season; I cannot say that I do not enjoy the taste of the tenderloin of a freshly taken deer as it sizzles on the grill while I continue to cut up the animal and prepare to pickle the heart, prepare the hide for sale, get the head and antlers ready for mounting, etc; I cannot say that the sausage made from the same game is not simply delicious; I cannot say that I don’t wake up at 4:00a.m. to prepare the coffee for my brothers and friends who are about to enter the forest with rifle in hand (actually, since I do not hunt, I am still awake at this time, heavily engaged in Texas Hold’M) and I cannot say that - although it is not for me - I do not mercilessly tease my father(s) and brothers for doing their best to bring down Bambi with an explosion of Thirty-odd-Six rifle fire all the while hypocritically waiting and hoping to taste that tenderloin with a pinch of nutmeg and ample garlic of which, when consumed with a dark lager, is simply Heaven on Earth…:gopray2:

But, what Michael Vick has engaged in is simply reprehensible, and he should pay dearly for contributing to the barbaric practice of Dog Fighting.😦
 
Paralabagne said:
I’ve stopped hunting and detest the practice!!!

However, I cannot say that I am not at camp with my family (Males only!!!) during the November Buck season; I cannot say that I do not enjoy the taste of the tenderloin of a freshly taken deer as it sizzles on the grill while I continue to cut up the animal and prepare to pickle the heart, prepare the hide for sale, get the head and antlers ready for mounting, etc; I cannot say that the sausage made from the same game is not simply delicious; I cannot say that I don’t wake up at 4:00a.m. to prepare the coffee for my brothers and friends who are about to enter the forest with rifle in hand (actually, since I do not hunt, I am still awake at this time, heavily engaged in Texas Hold’M) and I cannot say that - although it is not for me - I do not mercilessly tease my father(s) and brothers for doing their best to bring down Bambi with an explosion of Thirty-odd-Six rifle fire all the while hypocritically waiting and hoping to taste that tenderloin with a pinch of nutmeg and ample garlic of which, when consumed with a dark lager, is simply Heaven on Earth…:gopray2:
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Okay…now I’m hungry. My egg-white omelet I had for breakfast is completely unsatisfying after reading your post. 😉

I guess I better by a raffle ticket for some of Fr. Lappe’s Elk. As our visiting priest this weekend said, “boy, he’s confident!” 🙂 I don’t think father has actually bagged anything in his life, so I will be praying for him.
But, what Michael Vick has engaged in is simply reprehensible, and he should pay dearly for contributing to the barbaric practice of Dog Fighting.😦
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Agreed.
 
vern_humphrey said:
That’s a fallacy spread by organizations like PETA. The facts are:…
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Which really has nothing to do with what Kathrin was saying.

Surely all things being equal she is right, the transfer of energy from the sun to the plant to the human would be more efficient than the transfer of energy from the sun to the plant to animal to the human (darn that thermodynamics)

Of course all things aren’t equal and some animals (as pure herbivores) are more efficient digesters of plants than we poor omnivores are (the price of being a generalist)
But still there are inefficiencies at each step that just can’t be avoided

So unless you have animals that get a large portion of their food from non-cultivated land such as grazing, raising corn and soy to give to cattle for humans has to be less effieicnt than feeding the humans directly (which of course raises the question of whether that land could be put to more efficient use if it were cultivated… but that is another story)

Of course this doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t eat animals.
Man doesn’t live by efficiency alone after all 😉
 
latinmasslover said:
Hunting animals for fun is wrong. If one is going to hunt, then he/she needs to use everything that can be used of the animal. (for money only would also be wrong!) Look to the example of the Native Americans. They hunted what they needed, and used everything that was usable. There’s really no need to hunt today because there’s plenty of meat available in stores.
Humans began eating meat, AFTER the flood destroyed the vegetation. Vegetarian is a healthier lifestyle, when done correctly.
The deer wouldn’t starve if we didn’t kill all the wolves (God’s most beautiful creatures:heaven:) and other predators.
Torture of animals is always wrong, and allowing them to suffer needlessly is also wrong. The way animals are slaugtered today is not humane, they’re treated like crud while they’re alive, and I find it disgusting that they’re raised simply to kill. Think about it, it’s flesh. In your mouth. Yuck.
I’ve said hunting is unnecessary, as it is, but I will say this: anyone who feels it’s necessary for them to eat meat should be the ones to slaughter and prepare it themselves. That’s my humble, therefore correct opinion :rotfl:(a visiting priest said that in a homily once. Well, I thought it was funny.)
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I agree with all of that especially the part about the wolves:D .
 
Manresa said:
It’s all about stewardship. God gave us domain over the animals and the world. This does not give us carte blanche to abuse it.

Two animals killing each other in the wild, ie your zebra and lion scenario, is different from a group of people placing two animals that they specially trained into a pit and bet on which one is superior. The most appalling part of the whole ordeal is the way the losing animals were executed… shot, electrocuted and drowned. Shot is pretty fast if done correctly, but drowning and electrocuting are ways of sadisticly inflicting pain and suffering on a creature of God for your own enjoyment.

I say creature of God because that is what they are.

~the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.~
Genesis 1:2

Anytime you see wind in Sacred Scripture, even if it is lower case, you can pretty well bet it is referring to the Holy Spirit, who is God. Wind is also considered to be the breath of God, also considered the Holy Spirit. So, here we see God moving across the waters breathing life into the new creation.

~I, on my part, am about to bring the flood (waters) on the earth, to destroy everywhere all creatures in which there is the breath of life; everything on earth shall perish.~
Genesis 6:17

Here God is telling Noah His plan. He will destroy all creatures in which there is the breath of life, not just people.

I challange to look at life through a deeper spiritual insight, through the eyes of your heart. If you walk through a park, meadow or your yard and all you see is grass as just being grass, then I bet that is how you view all life. If you have no respect for the lowest form of God’s creation then you cannot respect the highest form which explains why we have abortion and other violations of human dignity. Likewise, if you cannot respect the highest form of life then you cannot respect the lowest which explains things like dog fighting and other crimes that destroy the earth.

This is all basic Ignatian Philosophy, (based on St. Ignatius of Loyola and his work The Spiritual Exercises) God is all of His creation and all of His creation reflects His love and majesty, likewise, He reflects His creation.
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:amen:
I agree with every word!! You have said this so much better than I could, but this is exactly what I have been wanting to say!!
My Daddy was a hunter, and a fisherman. A kinder gentler soul never walked this earth; I tell people, " Daddy made St Francis of Assisi look like an:) amateur in the dept. of love for animals."
He saw this so clearly, just as you do. Bless you for a wonderful post.
From a social standpoint, ask any law enforcement investigator and they will tell you that the Unholy Trinity, the precursors of serial killers, is
  1. Bedwetting
  2. Cruelty to animals
  3. Infactuation with fire
Without being judgmental, Michael Vick and company have at least one of those precursors that we know of.
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Ah, yes…You have read my mind, my friend. You have read my mind.
 
This thread reminds me of a story my dad once told me:

My grandfather got him and my uncle a bb gun, but warned him if he shot any animal with it, he’d have to eat it.

Not taking my grandfather seriously (a bad decision, as it turned out), my uncle shot a crow.

Apparently, there’s a reason why they call it “eating crow”. 😃

I thought that was pretty good advice, even before I started out in my veterinary career…if you kill it, be prepared to eat it.👍
 
Kathrin said:
Does anybody know - did St. Francis eat meat??
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Yes, according to this
ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ZFRANECO.HTM
*Q: There are those who say St. Francis was vegetarian.

—Father Iammarrone: Whoever says this, has read nothing of St. Francis’ life. In early biographies one reads that St. Francis said that if Christmas was on a Friday, the friars should be given a double ration of meat, and animals a double ration of hay, out of love for the Lord, who was born for us.*

All life comes from death in one way or another. It is not possible to live on this planet without having an effect on the other life on it. Animals consume other animals, true, but even plants depend on the nutrients in the soil that come from the decay of dead animals and plants, not soley on sunshine.

Even vegans, who consume no animal products, are participants in the ending of life and interruption of the natural life cycle of the plants they consume. By eating the fruit, the vegetable, the seed, you interrupt the natural life cycle of that plant, even if you do not kill the original plant to do so.

Which has the greater impact on the ecosystem–the imported coffee raised via slash and burn agriculture and involving the pollution of a long transportation process or the humanely raised and slaughtered pasture fed cow from the farm 10 miles from my home or the deer from the local forest that was killed for food by a responsible hunter using humane methods?

When we are ill with infections, we take antibiotics to kill the bacteria or to thwart the reproduction of the virus, which are also living things and play an important part in the cycle of life that allows everything on this planet to continue. When we build a house, pave a road, build a school, clear and plant a field, we interrupt the natural life cycle of plants and animals. By damming rivers to lessen flooding or putting out a forest fire we alter the natural checks and balances of the original ecosystem, which will cause some animals and plants to die and others to flourish.

Now I am not Catholic, but ethically, I view it as my responsibility, in light of the above, to be aware of what I am doing when I eat and that another life ended or was altered to allow mine to continue. That means doing all I can to see that my food was raised (and slaughtered, if applicable) humanely and sustainably, not in ways that destroy the ecosystem or exploit either humans or animals. I try to support local small scale sustainable farming as well as fair trade and other sustainable imports for things I can’t get locally. I suport charities like Heifer Project which provides training and animals for people to become more self-sufficient and requires them to pass on some of the offspring of their animals to other families in need. I try to lessen my impact on my environment as much as I can, while realizing that I will always have an impact. I see it as embodied spirituality, a practice of mindful living.

I have no problem with hunting or fishing that is done responsibly any more than I have with farming or ranching that is done responsibly. I believe it is just as possible to be an ethically responsible omnivore as it is an ethically responsible vegetarian. It is also just as possible to be an ethically irresponsible and destructive vegetarian as it is an ethically irresponsible and destructive omnivore.
 
steveandersen said:
Which really has nothing to do with what Kathrin was saying.

Surely all things being equal she is right, the transfer of energy from the sun to the plant to the human would be more efficient than the transfer of energy from the sun to the plant to animal to the human (darn that thermodynamics)
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Except that:

a. We can’t eat grass or woody plants.
b. Not all land is suitable for crops.
c. The world food production capacity far exceeds the needs of humanity.
steveandersen said:
Of course all things aren’t equal and some animals (as pure herbivores) are more efficient digesters of plants than we poor omnivores are (the price of being a generalist)
But still there are inefficiencies at each step that just can’t be avoided
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Only theoretical inefficiencies – they don’t prove out in practice. For example, I can’t eat what a deer eats. But I can eat a deer.
steveandersen said:
So unless you have animals that get a large portion of their food from non-cultivated land such as grazing, raising corn and soy to give to cattle for humans has to be less effieicnt than feeding the humans directly (which of course raises the question of whether that land could be put to more efficient use if it were cultivated… but that is another story)
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Actually not – the energy and other costs associated with feeding animals are much lower than those associated with processing and shipping the vegetable matter for human consumption.
steveandersen said:
Of course this doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t eat animals.
Man doesn’t live by efficiency alone after all 😉
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That’s true – as I said, I cannot eat what a deer eats. But I can eat a deer.
 
Vick said today he’s found Jesus and is turning his life over to God and has asked for forgiveness. :clapping: I hope this is true, but you often hear celebrities say things like this in times of despair (Paris Hilton). Anyway, I hope it’s true and I’m not going to accuse him of lying.
 
  1. God gave us dominion over the animals, which to me is part of the reason I feel so strongly about the humane treatment of animals. He put them in our care, and it’s up to us to treat them with respect and kindness. However, I do believe animals serve different purposes and were put here for different reasons. I seriously doubt that God put cows here just to walk around going “moo”.
  2. I use to be admantly against hunting, but growing up in Michigan slowly bled the zeal out of me. In the lower pennisula alone we have 16,000 deer vs car accidents a year, most during fall and winter during the inclement weather. We had deer starving on the grounds of a factory about two blocks from our street last winter and when you think about how miserable you are when you’re hungry you would know that starvation is a terrible death. So to be humane and to protect people it’s a necessary procedure.
  3. Yes, animals most certainly feel pain. And fear as well. And grief. And happiness. And love. They feel it on different levels then we do, but they do feel most of the emotions we experince. Which, again, is a reason to not be cruel to them.
Oh, and I have to add…I don’t know if I could kill an animal, even to eat it, but I don’t agree with the attitude of “if you can’t kill it don’t eat it”. I also don’t know if I could stand in the burning sun for twelve hours a day picking vegetables, so does that mean I can’t eat them now too? We all have different limitations, which is why there are a wide variety of jobs so people who have the abilities can keep the country running and those who don’t can help everything move along in a different manner according to their skills.
 
Am I the only one curious about why this horrible event appears to violate moral sensibilities more than adultery or beating your spouse?
 
Orionthehunter said:
Am I the only one curious about why this horrible event appears to violate moral sensibilities more than adultery or beating your spouse?
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It’s not like he was performing abortions in there, now is it?

If he had been, he’d be a hero in the media.
 
PeteZaHut said:
I am pulled in many different ways when it comes to the subject of animals.
  1. I know that God gave us dominion over animals when he created them, but it is also our duty to care for them. Certainly, in some places in the world, meat is the only food people have. Should people in richer countries like America, who have the means of doing so, abstain from eating meat to save animals’ lives? God gave us the right to eat animals if we need to, but what about if we don’t “need” to?
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Just curious, but where in the Bible does it say we have the right to eat animals ‘only’ if we ‘need’ to eat them?

I can’t find it anywhere.

Seems to me that we have dominion over animals and we should show proper stewardship for their care. That can easily include raising and eating them. Were not many in the Bible shepards and/or owners of flocks/herds? Of course they were. They could have chosen to be vegitarians back then just as some choose to do it now.

As for hunting. That MUST be done. I choose NOT to do it, but I admit that I appreciate the fact that others are out there doing something I would not do. Deer herds are overpopulated in many areas because man has killed the wolves, bears, bobcats and other predators that existed across most of North America to make it safe for humans to live outside of walled cities. Without natural predators many species are overpopulating and that is wreaking havoc on the eco-systems.

Here in Indiana the deer are so thick that rare plant species are being wiped out. To allow this is not good stewardship.

Further, the same over populated deer herds are also destroying habitat of squirrels in the dune areas of the Lake Michigan shore areas. The dune squirrels populations are shrinking and becoming endangered. To allow this is not good stewardship.

So just to take this one example, by not killing the excess deer and managing their populations we are allowing plants and other animals to die off. Every attempt as ‘sterilization’ and ‘birth control’ of the deer herds has failed nationally. That is not a viable option.

People who MISTAKENLY believe that the Bible sends us a message not to eat meat, manage animals, hunt, etc are simply misreading things. The CCC does not teach us that either.
 
I don’t know how anyone can try and fool themselves and call it hunting. I also like to go what these “men” like to call hunting.
but i don’t try and kid myself. I call it what it is Shooting. but i do it for money… glorious money. In my mind if these fools want to call or think of themselves as big brave “hunters” dump your guns and grab a spear lads or perhaps try your bare hands like or true hunting ancestors did many moons ago.
 
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