Apparitions - Deceptions of Satan?

[mumof5]

LilyM:

Here we go - Revelations Chapter 11. The entire first half of the chapter is a long speech from an angel.

OK - went and had a quick look. In this example I disagree, this is the giving of a revelation by an angel and it is not a conversation. It is being delivered as a straight message. This is NOT a conversation.

Look to when the angel leads Peter from prison. Acts 12:6-10. This is typical of an angel. They come, they do not enter conversation, they do what they are there to do, and they go.

 

[LilyM]

Oh please, no sane person would be so stupid as to believe that Mary appears in toast any more than they would believe that Jesus appears in tortillas or photographs of snowy landscapes, and you know it.

By the way, I don’t think THOSE particular fallacies are exclusively Catholic either.

Good heavens, what about the angels who comforted Jesus after his agony then? You think they didn’t say anything to him and he didn’t say anything back to them?

 

[mumof5]

Batjacboy:

In what way is Mary either an idol or a false prophet?

Please demonstrate.

Mary is an idol when she is prayed to.

And sorry Eden, but you know what I mean, you are just trying to argue semantics. There is no time that those who have gone through death are asked to intercede. It is those who are on this side of death that are asked to intercede.

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

And now she’s co-redemptrix? Wow. What blasphemy. Jesus alone is the redeemer. And who did Mary worship? My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour (Luke 1:46-47). God. Her Saviour. Oh hang on…if she was sinless why did she need a Saviour?

You clearly do not understand what this means.

Oh hang on…if she was sinless why did she need a Saviour?

You went to Catholic school and you are asking this? Of course she needed a Savior! She was redeemed by Him before her conception.

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

Mary is an idol when she is prayed to.

And sorry Eden, but you know what I mean, you are just trying to argue semantics. There is no time that those who have gone through death are asked to intercede. It is those who are on this side of death that are asked to intercede.

No. You do not know what you are talking about. Either that or you do not believe in the immortal soul just as Jehovah’s Witnesses do not.

 

[mumof5]

Maybe the toast bits aren’t approved but the shroud of Turin is an example of how Catholics will use in their worship, something that is controversial and not even established as real. I was disturbed, when still a Catholic, to see that there was a whole chapel in Ireland devoted to this shroud. I actually left the church it was in. It just seemed so wrong. I know this is a seperate issue to visions but I see it as being along the same lines.

 

[Batjacboy]

mumof5:

This is typical of an angel. They come, they do not enter conversation, they do what they are there to do, and they go.

Not so.

Read Genesis 19:

1 And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of the city. And seeing them, he rose up and went to meet them: and worshipped prostrate to the ground, 2 And said: I beseech you, my lords, turn in to the house of your servant, and lodge there: wash your feet, and in the morning you shall go on your way. And they said: No, but we will abide in the street. 3 He pressed them very much to turn in unto him: and when they were come into his house, he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread and they ate: 4 But before they went to bed, the men of the city beset the house both young and old, all the people together.

Doesn’t sound like they just did “what they are there to do, and they go.”

 

[mumof5]

Eden:

No. You do not know what you are talking about. Either that or you do not believe in the immortal soul just as Jehovah’s Witnesses do not.

OK - show me one place in the Bible where those who have’passed over’ or whatever terminology makes you comfortable, and are alive on the other side are asked to intercede. It’s always those on earth who are asked to pray (to God btw) for others.

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

Maybe the toast bits aren’t approved

Do you not have a conscience? You admit that you just throw things out there that do not even honestly represent Catholicism and you do not see that you are “bearing false witness”?

 

[mumof5]

Batjacboy:

Not so.

Read Genesis 19:

1 And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of the city. And seeing them, he rose up and went to meet them: and worshipped prostrate to the ground, 2 And said: I beseech you, my lords, turn in to the house of your servant, and lodge there: wash your feet, and in the morning you shall go on your way. And they said: No, but we will abide in the street. 3 He pressed them very much to turn in unto him: and when they were come into his house, he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread and they ate: 4 But before they went to bed, the men of the city beset the house both young and old, all the people together.

Doesn’t sound like they just did “what they are there to do, and they go.”

It is because that was part of what they were told to do. They needed to be there, that was part of their mission.

 

[Batjacboy]

mumof5:

It is because that was part of what they were told to do. They needed to be there, that was part of their mission.

And it directly contradicts your previous premise.

 

[mumof5]

Eden:

Do you not have a conscience? You admit that you just throw things out there that do not even honestly represent Catholicism and you do not see that you are “bearing false witness”?

I’m not bearing false witness but your visions are.

Glorify Jesus, listen to and pray to Jesus, not Mary, Saints, anyone. This is how you are to pray, “Our FATHER in heaven…”

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

OK - show me one place in the Bible where those who have’passed over’ or whatever terminology makes you comfortable, and are alive on the other side are asked to intercede. It’s always those on earth who are asked to pray (to God btw) for others.

One place? Sure. How about Revelation when we read about the saints in heaven offering the prayers of the saints on earth to God:

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

 

[mumof5]

Batjacboy:

And it directly contradicts your previous premise.

No it doesn’t. Sorry. Those angels were there in the household doing their job. They hung around for the precise length of time they were required.

 

[Batjacboy]

mumof5:

No it doesn’t. Sorry. Those angels were there in the household doing their job. They hung around for the precise length of time they were required.

But you had claimed that there weren’t conversations.

You saying they just stood in the corner with their faces to the walls?

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

I’m not bearing false witness but your visions are.

Glorify Jesus, listen to and pray to Jesus, not Mary, Saints, anyone. This is how you are to pray, “Our FATHER in heaven…”

I think you do not understand what “bearing false witness” means.
It means knowingly perpetuating a false accusation against another - such as knowingly perpetuating the false accusation that the Church teaches that images of Mary in toast are “approved”.

 

[whosebob]

mumof5:

Mary is an idol when she is prayed to.

JMJ + OBT​

You have come to understand that “pray” == “worship something as a god or God.”

But Catholics, as you are learning, use prayer in varied contexts. To “pray to God the Father (or Jesus or the Holy Spirit or the Holy Trinity)” can mean to adore God, worship Him, praise Him and thank Him as a creature rightfully does with regard to his Creator.

To “pray to a saint” is to ask for that Christian brother or sister’s heavenly intercession. Catholics believe the Saints are alive in heaven worshipping God and interceding for sinners (which means everyone) on earth. By the power of the Holy Spirit, our requests for intercession can go up to them, and they can pray with us and for us to Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. We get this from the NT considered as a whole (especially Revelation), and the practice of the early Church to ask, privately and publicly, for its martyred members to pray for those still living, especially those preparing to die for the Faith.

No practice could be more Christian.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[mumof5]

Eden:

One place? Sure. How about Revelation when we read about the saints in heaven offering the prayers of the saints on earth to God:

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Nowhere does it say they are offering those bowls. The prayers of the saints are rising, as the incense, to God but this in no way implies it is being offered ‘on behalf’. The prayers of the saints are the offerings and they are direct from the saints.

 

[Batjacboy]

I think you do not understand what “bearing false witness” means.
It means knowingly perpetuating a false accusation against another - such as knowingly perpetuating the false accusation that the Church teaches that images of Mary in toast are “approved”.

Or claiming that Catholics worship Mary as an “idol.”

 

[mumof5]

Eden:

I think you do not understand what “bearing false witness” means.
It means knowingly perpetuating a false accusation against another - such as knowingly perpetuating the false accusation that the Church teaches that images of Mary in toast are “approved”.

I never said that at all. I merely pointed this out as the type of hysteria that is out there.