Apparitions - Deceptions of Satan?

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mumof5:
Nowhere does it say they are offering those bowls. The prayers of the saints are rising, as the incense, to God but this in no way implies it is being offered ‘on behalf’. The prayers of the saints are the offerings and they are direct from the saints.
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Rev 5:8
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Since these elders in Heaven do not yet have physical bodies, the only way they can “hold” bowls of the prayers of the holy ones on earth is mentally.

That’s intercession. We don’t stop caring for one another once we are perfected in Heaven.
 
Hi Mum! -
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mumof5:
Mary is an idol when she is prayed to.
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The Catholic Church draws no difference between those alive here or in the afterlife. Both are alive and are capable of intercession. To say otherwise is just plain wrong.
And sorry Eden, but you know what I mean, you are just trying to argue semantics. There is no time that those who have gone through death are asked to intercede. It is those who are on this side of death that are asked to intercede.
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2 Maccabees 15:11-15

I’m sorry if you don’t think that Maccabees is apocryphal, but there it is. To Catholics, Maccabees is not apocryphal.

Blessings,
Subrosa
 
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mumof5:
Well, if she can’t…maybe you could provide examples of ‘lengthy conversations’ angels hold…

And would you post the part ofTobit that Jesus references AND the corresponding NT scripture please…
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Hi, mumof5. How is life in Australia these days?

I would think that Genesis Chapter 19 when Lot entertains the angels is an example of lengthy conversations. Certainly as Lot hosted them he participated in conversation with the angels.

Jim
 
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mumof5:
Anything that takes the place of God is an idol. If you are praying to Mary and not to God, it’s idolatry.

You guys should have been in my church on Sunday…that was prayer and worship 🙂
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Dear mumof5,

When I first read of your situation in posts a month or so ago, it was about the lack of fellowship in the multiple Catholic Church parishes you attended and how you planned to leave Catholicism. My interpretation from your posts was that the emphasis on fellowship was more important than worship, but you corrected me and explained it was about worshipping God that made you wish to leave the Catholic Church. You stated you felt more welcome by your new-found brethren friends even though you later admitted that you did not even know any of the congregants in your new church. As I read your posts now, I interpret blatant and hostile anti-Catholic commentaries and opinions that lead me to believe you have been misguided by this new found “religious zeal” and perpetuate the stereotypes spread by your new brethren. Are you that easily susceptible to the propaganda that they spew? I am disappointed not only in your denial of the Catholic Church, but that you embraced the inaccurate rhetoric of your new non-Catholic church. This latter part leads me to the concern that you are fanning the flames of anti-Catholic expression by chiming in “When I was Catholic….” followed by an uninformed opinion that enforces prejudices. I am sad that this is what has become for you.
 
There have been many saints who profess to having had Marian apparitions. What would be satan’s motive here? Satan is supposed to be intelligent. Why would he elect to waste time disguising himself as Mary to the most holy of us? Seems rather inefficient.
 
Originally Posted by mumof5
I would assume (and none of us know what went on) that any talk was similar to the manner of the angels in the rest of Genesis chapter 19. Very to the point and direct and purposeful.
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and
Originally Posted by mumof5 Well, if she can’t…maybe you could provide examples of ‘lengthy conversations’ angels hold.…
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Gen Chap 19. *BUT HE PRESSED THEM SO MUCH, that they went home with him and entered his house. *This is “very to the point and direct and purposeful”? When somebody is “pressed” that surely points to a lengthy conversation, does it not?
Originally Posted by mumof5
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Mary is an idol when she is prayed to.
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There is an old saying in Spanish “otra vez la burra al maiz”. Basically means “same old thing again and again” This is just plain ignorance and to think mumof5 claimed to be “Catholic”
 
Hi Mumof5;

Regarding your comment that God’s messengers don’t engage in idle chitchat but get right to the point:

What about when Abraham met the three travellers of the Lord on their way to Sodom, and not only had a conversation with them but a whole meal. The Lord blessed Abraham and Sarah with a child for his hospitality, and not because he allowed the travellers to “get right to the point” before moving on to Sodom, correct? 🙂

Reagarding your blanket statement about all Marian apparitions, I think it’s fair for a non-Catholic to say that some Catholics are too quick to accept an apparition of Mary as authentic. Certainly, the Devil can try any sort of deception to lead followers of Christ astray. But it is going too far to leap from that assumption to the conclusion and dismissal of *all * Marian apparitions as “of the Devil.” It takes reason, discernment and prayer to know the truth. And, again, it should be noted that the Church does not require belief in any of the Marian apparitions such as Lourdes, etc.

-Peace
 
It is unfortunate that Alfie hasn’t come to defend her statements about Marian apparitions.
 
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Eden:
Hey look! She ignored the prayers of the saints on earth being offerred to God by the saints in heaven in Revelation. I’m shocked that our biblical evidence has been ignored. :rolleyes:
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Absolutely!! being unkind to someone is deffinately gonna change their minds on somethig. Hows about a little compassion for others. Although I have much to say on this topic, instead I think I shall concentrate on saying a prayer for this woman to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit, instead of trying to shame her into believing something. She obviously does not understand the Catholic teaching on these things, which is not an insult but the truth. I have found this to be the case with too many catholics. Let us concern ourselves with spreading the Good News not bashing people over the head with it. I apologize to you momof5 if you have been hurt by any statements made here. I am curious though, what made you come to this belief? Was it through your own search, or was someone or something someone else brought to your attention. Seriously curious!! God Bless you.
 
Yeah, I read this long time ago, in what turned out to be protestant magazine. No wonder, even Christ’s miracles were attributed to be from Beelzebul, the head of evil.

Later on I thought about Christ’s words “Those who are not against us are for us”.
 
mumof5 said:
[Angels do not engage in conversation. Even the example in Luke 1 is very succinct and to the point. Couldn’t call that a conversation.
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Ah, but they do. Sometimes they even stay for lunch 😉

JSA
[/quote]
 
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Batjacboy:
According to Christ, this Golden Rule can be found in the Old Testament, which He quotes from. We know where it’s from: Tobit.
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Not necessarily what he may have been quoting, here are some other references.

Jonah 4:1
Proverbs 3:27
Leviticus 19:18
 
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Mijoy2:
There have been many saints who profess to having had Marian apparitions. What would be satan’s motive here? Satan is supposed to be intelligent. Why would he elect to waste time disguising himself as Mary to the most holy of us? Seems rather inefficient.
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This one gets me, my question is this… why is there never any protestant or other christian sects that have had mary apparitions?
At least none that I’m aware of.
 
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myfavoritmartin:
This one gets me, my question is this… why is there never any protestant or other christian sects that have had mary apparitions?
At least none that I’m aware of.
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Although I’m not certain that’s the case, we could speculate. Perhaps Protestants would misinterpret such a private revelation as Satan or an evil spirit. Peraps pagans might assume it is some god or at least not recognize the purpose.
 
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myfavoritmartin:
This one gets me, my question is this… why is there never any protestant or other christian sects that have had mary apparitions?
At least none that I’m aware of.
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You mean like this? Salvation is from the Jews

He eventually became catholic after wandering around the various protestant denominations who disparaged Mary, as certain protestants are doing in this thread.

Even more interesting, of late there is a trend among protestant denominations recognizing the role of Mary.

Mumof5: would that mean, sinse quite a few protestants say the rosary, approved by their churches (Anglicans and Lutherans, Methodists) that they are no longer protestant?

Did you ever notice that the protestant bible has 66 books and is interpreted by man (6). Eerie coincidering the reference in revelation.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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myfavoritmartin:
This one gets me, my question is this… why is there never any protestant or other christian sects that have had mary apparitions?
At least none that I’m aware of.
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I’ve often questioned this myself. I do know of non-Christians who have had marian apparitions though (as noted above). But that is a very good question of which I would love to know the answer.

If satan is behind the apparitions I suppose one could argue it is to create a greater divide between catholic and non-catholic christians.

If the apparitions are genuinely our Lady, maybe it is because she’d feel she were being intrusive and interfering with thier free-will.

Just a guess.
 
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myfavoritmartin:
This one gets me, my question is this… why is there never any protestant or other christian sects that have had mary apparitions?
At least none that I’m aware of.
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Interesting… Actually, I don’t recall of hearing of any apparitions to protestants, but that dosen’t mean they don’t happen… Or maybe, and I’m just speculating now, that it has something to do with this:

Mat 13:58* Because they did not have faith, he did not perform many miracles there.*

Now, I am by no means saying that Protestants have no faith, what I am saying is that there may be a difference in the quality of faith between Catholics and Protestants.
 
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Wildgraywolf:
Interesting… Actually, I don’t recall of hearing of any apparitions to protestants… Maybe and I’m just speculating it has something to do with this:
Mat 13:58* Because they did not have faith, he did not perform many miracles there.*
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How many Marian apparitions have occurred over the centuries? Right away, I can think of Fatima, Lourdes, and Guadalupe. What are the others?
 
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Alfie:
You are taking glory and honor away from Jesus by paying adoration to Mary. If that isn’t deception than I don’t know what is. For any Protestant convert on this forum this should be a wake up call. Apparations are a tool of Satan. This is how Satan is going to use them to unite all of the religions of the world under one roof. There have been reports of Marian appariations in the Islamic countries. This will bring the Moslems into the Catholic church because they also have a respect for Mary. Don’t kid yourself…you are deceived.
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Recently, I have started to take such advice with a grain of salt, in light of Gal 1:8.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Here we see Paul warning against men (the “we” part) or angels, preaching other gospels. The implication is clear though: Paul believed that apparitions can and do exist, and that sometimes they can lead us astray.
So the main point is that not all apparitions are bad, and indeed, as long as the apparition doesn’t preach another gospel, and indeed if it leads one to Christ, then it should be regarded as helpful, and certainly not a “tool of Satan”.
To say Gal 1:8 (or any other Scripture says that all apparitions are bad) is reading into the text that which isn’t there.
 
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