Apparitions - Deceptions of Satan?

[mumof5]

Batjacboy:

Or claiming that Catholics worship Mary as an “idol.”

Anything that takes the place of God is an idol. If you are praying to Mary and not to God, it’s idolatry.

You guys should have been in my church on Sunday…that was prayer and worship

 

[Batjacboy]

mumof5:

Anything that takes the place of God is an idol. If you are praying to Mary and not to God, it’s idolatry.

Mumof5,

Please read WhoseBob’s excellent post 4 posts back.

Then address his points, instead of trying to define what constitutes idolatry.

 

[mumof5]

Batjacboy:

But you had claimed that there weren’t conversations.

You saying they just stood in the corner with their faces to the walls?

I would assume (and none of us know what went on) that any talk was similar to the manner of the angels in the rest of Genesis chapter 19. Very to the point and direct and purposeful.

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

I never said that at all. I merely pointed this out as the type of hysteria that is out there.

Sometimes Jesus is in the arms of Mary during visions…sometimes as an infant. Wrong. Jesus is at the right hand of God! Mary has now power to intercede for peace - Jesus is the Prince of Peace! Some of the stuff going on at Medjugorje is not pretty, certainly not of Christ. Investigate it.

It is written, Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matt 4:4).
Oh hang on…it doesn’t say, AND the words of Mary and any other dead Saint. And before someone gives Bible examples of saints being asked to pray for and intercede on behalf of those living - those asked to pray and intercede (to GOD) are themselves living. Trying to communicate with the dead is a penalty worthy of death in the Bible.

And now she’s co-redemptrix? Wow. What blasphemy. Jesus alone is the redeemer. And who did Mary worship? My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour (Luke 1:46-47). God. Her Saviour. Oh hang on…if she was sinless why did she need a Saviour?

The naîve believes everything” (Prov 14:15).

And it’s so hysterical that even burnt bits of toast are said to contain the image of Mary.

Come on. You were clearly connecting the Church with “burnt bits of toast”. You were attempting to discredit the Church by equated Marian apparitions with “burnt bits of toast”. Do they teach you to be this dishonest about your intentions at your new church? You were clearly bearing false witness against the Church and what it considers to be an “apparition”.

When did you say that you knew burnt toast was not something the Church has approved or that you were trying to give examples to “hysteria that is out there” in the first post? Your intentions were clear and deceptions after the fact won’t work. You go through a litany of “deceptions” and “errors” of the Church and end with the kicker about toast. Go back and read what you said.

 

[LilyM]

mumof5:

OK - show me one place in the Bible where those who have’passed over’ or whatever terminology makes you comfortable, and are alive on the other side are asked to intercede. It’s always those on earth who are asked to pray (to God btw) for others.

‘It’s in Revelations, people!’ (sorry, one of my favourite Simpsons quotes)

Specifically chapter 8:3-4 - ‘And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and … much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of ALL SAINTS upon the golden altar. And the … incense, which came with the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, ascended up before God’

Are you suggesting someone who has passed into eternal life in the presence of God has FEWER powers than they did on earth? Sounds like a bum deal to me if they do.

 

[mumof5]

Batjacboy:

Mumof5,

Please read WhoseBob’s excellent post 4 posts back.

Then address his points, instead of trying to define what constitutes idolatry.

It’s 5.30pm here and I have to go and finish the dinner but I had responded to that in mentioning that the Bible condemns communicating with the dead. I don’t have time to post more as I need to feed my family but will leave you with this dianedew.com/talkdead.htm

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

I would** assume** (and none of us know what went on) that any talk was similar to the manner of the angels in the rest of Genesis chapter 19. Very to the point and direct and purposeful.

I think you have already stated that you do not have the gift of infallibility on another thread. Your assumption, therefore, is just that an assumption - not fact. Assumption by a fallible human being on matters of faith and morals = not a powerful argument.

 

[mumof5]

Eden:

Come on. You were clearly connecting the Church with “burnt bits of toast”. You were attempting to discredit the Church by equated Marian apparitions with “burnt bits of toast”. Do they teach you to be this dishonest about your intentions at your new church? You were clearly bearing false witness against the Church and what it considers to be an “apparition”.

When did you say that you knew burnt toast was not something the Church has approved or that you were trying to give examples to “hysteria that is out there” in the first post? Your intentions were clear and deceptions after the fact won’t work. You go through a litany of “deceptions” and “errors” of the Church and end with the kicker about toast. Go back and read what you said.

Wrong. I never said it was the church - I was referring to the people that adopt such hysterical notions. Like those that gather at buildings where a reflection ‘looks like’ Mary and even mother theresa buns come under the same… never once did I say it was offical church teaching. Obviously I know that not all visions and things are endorsed by the church and I know you know it so why the need to state it seperately.

You will read into it what you want to read, but I know what I intended.

 

[LilyM]

mumof5:

It’s 5.30pm here and I have to go and finish the dinner but I had responded to that in mentioning that the Bible condemns communicating with the dead. I don’t have time to post more as I need to feed my family but will leave you with this dianedew.com/talkdead.htm

Praying to the saints is not communicating with the dead a la Saul and the Witch of Endor or John Edwards or James van Praagh or whoever. There is a clear difference between deliberately seeking information out of them and asking them to pray for us, as the angel in Revelations is shown offering our prayers to God for us.

Mary doesn’t appear to people because THEY want information out of her. She appears like the angel Gabriel appeared to her - because God was ready to talk and act and she was READY (not asking) to hear.

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

It’s 5.30pm here and I have to go and finish the dinner but I had responded to that in mentioning that the Bible condemns communicating with the dead. I don’t have time to post more as I need to feed my family but will leave you with this dianedew.com/talkdead.htm

Hey look! She ignored the prayers of the saints on earth being offerred to God by the saints in heaven in Revelation. I’m shocked that our biblical evidence has been ignored.

 

[Batjacboy]

mumof5:

I would assume (and none of us know what went on) that any talk was similar to the manner of the angels in the rest of Genesis chapter 19. Very to the point and direct and purposeful.

It says specifically that he made them a feast, and they ate at that feast.

Completely refutes your “Very to the point and direct and purposeful” contention.

Those who are “Very to the point and direct and purposeful” don’t stop for a feast.

 

[mumof5]

Eden:

I think you have already stated that you do not have the gift of infallibility on another thread. Your assumption, therefore, is just that an assumption - not fact. Assumption by a fallible human being on matters of faith and morals = not a powerful argument.

Yes but you don’t know any better than I do on that…

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

Wrong. I never said it was the church - I was referring to the people that adopt such hysterical notions. Like those that gather at buildings where a reflection ‘looks like’ Mary and even mother theresa buns come under the same… never once did I say it was offical church teaching. Obviously I know that not all visions and things are endorsed by the church and I know you know it so why the need to state it seperately.

You will read into it what you want to read, but I know what I intended.

Where in the world did you separate the Church from “hysterical people” in your original post. Your intentions were clear. “To thine own self be true.”

 

[mumof5]

Eden:

Hey look! She ignored the prayers of the saints on earth being offerred to God by the saints in heaven in Revelation. I’m shocked that our biblical evidence has been ignored.

Commented on that further down actually, didn’t feel the need to do so twice.

 

[LilyM]

Mum of 5, you can’t be talking about Medjugorje like that. Firstly it’s still being investigated and far from an approved apparition. Secondly the church doesn’t officially ‘endorse’ ANY of the Marian apparitions. It certainly doesn’t say any of them are genuine, simply that the faithful are permitted to believe in some of them in a private way.

The faithful aren’t required to believe that Mary has ever appeared to anyone, nor to listen to a single word that has been said in any of these apparitions.

 

[Batjacboy]

mumof5:

It’s 5.30pm here and I have to go and finish the dinner but I had responded to that in mentioning that the Bible condemns communicating with the dead. I don’t have time to post more as I need to feed my family

OK, but when you come back, please address the last points made by WhoseBob, Eden and Lily.

Oh, and don’t forget Tobit.

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

Commented on that further down actually, didn’t feel the need to do so twice.

Where did you comment? You commented on dinner and then gave us a link to someone else’s comments about saints. Can you show me where you commented? I missed it.

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

Yes but you don’t know any better than I do on that…

But the Church teaches infallibly and when I present those teachings here that have been declared infallibly, I can be sure they are infallible.

 

[whosebob]

mumof5:

It’s 5.30pm here and I have to go and finish the dinner but I had responded to that in mentioning that the Bible condemns communicating with the dead. I don’t have time to post more as I need to feed my family but will leave you with this dianedew.com/talkdead.htm

JMJ + OBT​

Have a wonderful dinner! Thanks for engaging us in dialogue and debate.

I think you really, really should sit down and take time to carefully read the following article:

All in the Family
The Communion of Saints

Here is something relevant from that essay:

Alive in Christ

Some object that the Catholic position on intercessory prayer is the same as necromancy, that is, calling upon the spirits of the dead to find out the future or obtain other information. Necromancy is a grave sin that, far from fostering communion, shows a lack of faith and trust in God. Necromancy was punishable by death under the Mosaic law (Lev. 19:31, 20:6). Some of the early Israelites practiced necromancy, including Saul (1 Sam. 28:3, 8-14), and they were punished severely for doing so (1 Sam. 28:17-19). This practice offended God (2 Kings 21:6) and led to the destruction of Israel.

Catholics do not practice necromancy, which is explicitly forbidden by the Church (cf. Catechism, nos. 2115-17). Rather, they ask for the prayers of the saints to foster communion in the Family of God.

Seeking the intercession of the saints is not necromancy for two reasons. First, necromancers are usually trying to receive information that they do not have, such as what will happen in the future. Asking the saints to pray for us, however, is not a form of divination or fortune-telling.

Second, necromancers are also trying to bring back and control the souls of dead people. Catholics, on the contrary, believe that those who have died in God’s grace are not dead but truly alive, and are able to help us by their prayers. As Jesus says, [Moses] calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him (Lk. 20:37-38).

According to Jesus, death cannot separate the faithful such as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob from God. And, if they are alive to God, they must be alive to us through Him as members of His one body. Otherwise, contrary to what Saint Paul says, Christ’s victory over death was incomplete, and His body is not truly one (cf. Jn.17:21; 1 Cor. 12: 12,13; 15:14 et al).

Also, I would like to see you address what I asked in post #23 in this thread.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Georgess]

Mary is not an angel ! and hence does not have to be limited to any of our percieved roles of what angels are supposed to do …

She is ‘Mother of my Lord’ - a Lord who as perfect Son want us to glorify the Name of The Father, by helping us to be humble and trusting , as the most perfect of His creation has been -His own Mother … that we realise a bit better what it must be for The Word to become incarnate …that we too be observant of the teaching authority of God given laws - as they both did - the Jewish faith then and The Church now .".thy will be done ."…that we accept The Church as the pillar and foundation of truth , and observe His commandments …even loving the neigbor - if the mother of the Pres. of U.S. lived next door , would it be good to think, he would be offended if we talk to her …true all that Bl. Mother has is because of her role as The Mother…and that helps us to realise too- all we have is because we are His children …

As to there being false apparitions , very likely so (www.unitypublishing.com has some intersting info on this -unsure if all of it is reliable ! they also mention the intricasies behind false info. on The Shroud of Turin !)

We read in Rev. how satan went after the woman and her children…spewing out torrents of water…much false information…

The truth of the apparition at Guadalupe - in bit over 500 years, the conversion of a whole continent of people (many who were into human sacrifice and cannibalism ) ; the fall of communism as predicted by Bl. Mother at Fatima - an evil system that took root in a country that prided itself in having even a better or more true faith than of The Church , yet as would be seen …not so …

Absence of not realsing what The Holy Mass and Eucharist is ,possibly behind a lot of the concern among other denominations about false or undue revernce to B. Mother…if only each of us could ask her …mama show me , teach me to love The Lord better …and trust in Him, in His Church, her Sacraments …and do Thy will…