Apparitions - Deceptions of Satan?

[Anonymous_1]

Fidelis:

Well, to parse your friend’s rather long on emotion/short on facts outburst: Since when is giving honor to anyone taking it away from someone else? Is Jesus that petty and insecure that he can’t stand any attention being paid to his own Mother? What about the 4th Commandment? Would Jesus begrudge honor being paid to his Mother by his spiritual brothers and sisters? Since there is no deception (how is giving honor, deception?)going on, I guess you don’t And the proof of this is…? Sounds good to me. Again, your saying so doesn’t make it so.

Howzat?

If we can honor celebrities and athletic superstars with commemorations and ceremonies and all kinds of other honors, why can’t we honor Mary the Mother of our Lord Jesus?

“Blessed art thou among women.”

Let us remember that our job here on earth is to the Love God with all our heart soul mind and strength. Our love is manuifested in action, surrender of oneself, and service. Mary changed Jesus’ diapers, nursed Him at her breast, sacrificed much for Him. Mary served Jesus better than any one of us could. Why is it wrong to look to her as a source of inspiration or intercession? Why is it wrong to honor her?

Peoples devotion to Mary brings them closer to Christ. “My soul doth magnify the Lord.”

If someone honored your mother would you be upset?

I think you have been decieved. Open your mind, seek the truth my friends.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Nicene:

You mean like when 30,000 people saw the sun fall in the sky at fatima?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

At any given time half the world can see the sun, but with 70,000 people being there only 30,000 saw this and no-one at any other location noticed this? and its been reported with very differing stories of what they saw, some saw it circling,vibrating, dipping.???

 

[Nicene]

myfavoritmartin:

At any given time half the world can see the sun, but with 70,000 people being there only 30,000 saw this and no-one at any other location noticed this? and its been reported with very differing stories of what they saw, some saw it circling,vibrating, dipping.???

Must be mass hysteria.

But I suppose the same can be said for the differing accouts of the gospels. Even more interesting that 10 Apostles didn’t see fit to write a gospel.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Eden]

myfavoritmartin:

At any given time half the world can see the sun, but with 70,000 people being there only 30,000 saw this and no-one at any other location noticed this? and its been reported with very differing stories of what they saw, some saw it circling,vibrating, dipping.???

That was the miracle - that it was seen only at Fatima, thus directly related to the apparition and secondly, even nonbelievers and people who actively tried to discredit the apparitions witnessed the “Miracle of the Sun”.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Nicene:

Must be mass hysteria.

But I suppose the same can be said for the differing accouts of the gospels. Even more interesting that 10 Apostles didn’t see fit to write a gospel.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

c’mon nicene, you and I have spoken enough that I know you can do better than spin doctoring, give answering this one a shot.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Eden:

That was the miracle - that it was seen only at Fatima, thus directly related to the apparition and secondly, even nonbelievers and people who actively tried to discredit the apparitions witnessed the “Miracle of the Sun”.

Help me on this what did the sun do?

 

[Wildgraywolf]

myfavoritmartin:

At any given time half the world can see the sun, but with 70,000 people being there only 30,000 saw this and no-one at any other location noticed this? and its been reported with very differing stories of what they saw, some saw it circling,vibrating, dipping.???

I don’t see your point here… If you consider the miracles Christ worked and even the Transfiguration; those events were witnessed only by those folks who were there and not brodcast to Rome or the ends of the earth. Do they somehow have less meaning because the entire planet didn’t witness them first hand?

Differing accounts of that particular miracle aren’t very revealing… Say 20 people witness an accident you can bet there will be differing descriptions of what happend. The one thing for certain is that there was indeed an accident.

 

[Nicene]

myfavoritmartin:

c’mon nicene, you and I have spoken enough that I know you can do better than spin doctoring, give answering this one a shot.

Alerady did, but you didn’t see it. If you and I see the same event we will describe it differently. Go look at any court case, or in this instance the gospels. They aren’t the same because they are seen through the eyes of the one who witnessed the event.

And ask yourself really, why did only 2 apostles bother to write anything down about such an important event in the history of mankind.

10 of those witnesses you take at their word without a written account. Or do you believe there were only 2 witnesses and you believe those 2 but don’t believe the other 10. If you accept the other 10 it’s only because of tradition or the other 2 guys told you to believe them, yet we don’t have their eyewitness accounts. Are the other 10 unreliable? If not why not? If so, why so? Proof please.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Eden]

myfavoritmartin:

Help me on this what did the sun do?

A great illustration of the fact that the “Miracle of the Sun” was *real *and not a contrived story agreed upon by all is the fact that from the testimony witnesses they used their own personal interpretations of what they saw to describe it. If you and I and 10 other people witnessed the same occurrence, would our descriptions of what we saw all be the same, like automatons? Or would our human perceptions created varying accounts?

Here is one witness to the “Miracle of the Sun”:

1. The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared
2. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.
3. [The sun could be seen] like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight.
4. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina.
5. [During this time], the sun’s disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinking of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl.
   http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/images/spacer.gif
6. "During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of color in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun… everything was becoming darkened.
7. "Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight.

Summary of the testimony of a witness of the “Miracle of the Sun”. Professor Almeida Garrett’s full account may be found in “Novos Documentos de Fatima” (Loyala editions, San Paulo, 1984)

www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/miracle.asp

 

[Nicene]

Differing accounts of that particular miracle aren’t very revealing… Say 20 people witness an accident you can bet there will be differing descriptions of what happend. The one thing for certain is that somthing happened.

That’s exactly the point. Something incredible happened. Satan does not have power over the heavens and there weren’t only catholics who witnessed the event.

It takes faith to believe God still works miracles.

Then again I suppose we don’t have to believe that Elijah shut up the rain either. It’s only one writers account, and Elijah wasn’t the author.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Wildgraywolf:

I don’t see your point here… If you consider the miracles Christ worked and even the Transfiguration; those events were witnessed only by those folks who were there and not brodcast to Rome or the ends of the earth. Do they somehow have less meaning because the entire planet didn’t witness them first hand?

The direction I am leading to is this, are apparitions a deception of satan? I say that it is more likely the work of the deciever, as opposed to our maker by simply stating some inconsistencies. God is perfect and if he moved his sun wouldn’t people other than fatima have seen it. whereas the deciever may have polluted the eyes and minds of those at fatima.
Another explanation may be in astrological study, I will research this a little bit but my guess is there may be certain solar things that happen at diffrent times that could have left an impression on the people of fatima.

 

[TobyLue]

This one gets me, my question is this… why is there never any protestant or other christian sects that have had mary apparitions?
At least none that I’m aware of.

There was a book published some years ago. About a Jewish man who claimed Jesus appeared to him. I read it and it sold many copies. It told about some tragedy that happened in the man’s life and he converted to Christianity. It came out a few years later that it was all a hoax. So you see, Catholics have the magisterium to check out the alleged apparitions. The persons are examined, events are investigated, determines if the messages go against the teachings of the Church and scripture, etc., and no formal ruling will be made until the apparitions stop. After which the Church may decide that the apparitions are worthy of believe. Some have even been condemned. Protestantism has nobody with authority to make such rulings.

BTW in Kibeho Rwanda an apparition was approved. The Blessed Virgin appeared to seven youth. One of them was a pagan and another was a Muslim. Also, more than likely if the BVM were to appear to a protestant, the person would run away screaming “its satanic, its satanic!!”. So IMO the BVM would not want to interfere with a person having that kind of attitude.

 

[Eden]

myfavoritmartin:

Help me on this what did the sun do?

Maybe JFK wasn’t assassinated. Did the shots come from behind? From a grassy knoll? Did he jerk forward or backward? Was the video staged? There are way too many different description of the JFK assassination to believe something actually happened.

www.jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm

 

[Eden]

myfavoritmartin:

The direction I am leading to is this, are apparitions a deception of satan?

*Approved *apparitions? No. Why would satan want atheists to convert to Christianity?

God is perfect and if he moved his sun wouldn’t people other than fatima have seen it. whereas the deciever may have polluted the eyes and minds of those at fatima.

The miracle was promised specifically at Fatima. The Blessed Virgin told the children (who were the only ones who could physically see her) that at her last visit there would be a miracle and to tell everyone.

Another explanation may be in astrological study, I will research this a little bit but my guess is there may be certain solar things that happen at diffrent times that could have left an impression on the people of fatima.

The sun looking like it is hurtling toward earth is an “astrological phenomena” that you feel you can find explained scientifically and it coincidentally happened on the day the Virgin said it would?

 

[Eden]

Having received from Heaven itself a message with obviously profound importance for the Church and all humanity, Lucy knew that she and her cousins needed a divine credential if they were to be believed. During the apparition on July 13, Sister Lucy asked the Lady “to tell us who You are, and to work a miracle, so that everybody will believe that You are appearing to us.” And the Lady replied: "Continue to come here every month. In October I will tell you who I am and what I want, and I will perform a miracle for all to see and believe."5 The Lady repeated this promise in further apparitions to Lucy and the other seers on August 19 and again, at the Cova, on September 13.

And so the people had assembled in a great crowd at the Cova on October 13. And at precisely the hour predicted in July—12 noon solar time, and 1:30 p.m. by the clock in Portugal—it begins. Lucy suddenly tells the people in the crowd to shut their umbrellas in the midst of a drenching rain which has turned the Cova to mud…

And then the Miracle began. We recount here the testimony of a reporter who cannot possibly be accused of partiality in this matter and for a good reason! We refer to Avelino de Almeida, the chief editor of O Seculo, the large “liberal” anticlerical and Masonic daily newspaper of Lisbon. He writes:

From the road, where the carriages were crowded together and where hundreds of persons had stayed for want of sufficient courage to advance across the muddy ground, we saw the huge crowd turn towards the sun which appeared at its zenith, clear of the clouds. It resembled a disc of silver, and it was possible to stare at it without the least discomfort. It did not burn the eyes. It did not blind. We would say that it produced an eclipse. Then a tremendous cry rang out, and the crowd nearest us were heard to shout: “Miracle! Miracle! … Marvel! … Marvel!” Before the dazzled eyes of the people, whose attitude transported us to biblical times, and who, dumbfounded, heads uncovered, contemplated the blue of the sky, the sun trembled, it made strange and abrupt movements, outside of all cosmic laws, “the sun danced”, according to the typical expression of the peasants …7

​

Attacked violently by all the anticlerical press, Avelino de Almeida renewed his testimony, fifteen days later, in his review,* Ilustração Portuguesa*. This time he illustrated his account with a dozen photographs of the huge ecstatic crowd, and repeated as a refrain throughout his article: “I saw … I saw … I saw.” And he concluded fortuitously: "Miracle, as the people shouted? Natural phenomenon, as the experts say? For the moment, that does not concern me, I am only saying what I saw… The rest is a matter for Science and the Church."

 

[Eden]

In the same vein this testimony by the editor-in-chief of O Seculo:

“And then we witnessed a unique spectacle, an incredible spectacle, unbelievable if you did not witness it. From above the road … We see the immense crowd turn toward the sun, which appeared at its zenith, clear of the clouds. It looked like a plate of dull silver, and it was possible to stare at it without the least discomfort. It did not burn the eyes. It did not blind. One might say that an eclipse had occurred.” (Article of October 15, 1917)

​

And likewise: “The people could look at the sun as we look at the moon.” (Maria do Carmo)12

One could multiply endlessly the testimonies about the ensuing solar phenomena, witnessed even by the secular editor-in-chief of an anticlerical newspaper. Consider these:

“It shook and trembled; it seemed like a wheel of fire.” (Maria da Capelinha)13

“The sun turned like a fire wheel, taking on all the colors of the rainbow.” (Maria do Carmo)14

“It appeared like a globe of snow turning on itself.” (Father Lourenço)15

“The pearl-like disc had a giddy motion. This was not the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance. It turned on itself with impetuous speed.” (Dr. Almeida Garrett)16

“At a certain moment,the sun stopped and then began again to dance, to spin; it stopped again, and began again to dance.” (Ti Marto)17

“The sun took on all the colors of the rainbow. Everything assumed those same colors: our faces, our clothes, the earth itself.” (Maria do Carmo)18

“A light, whose colors changed from one moment to the next, was reflected on the people and on things.” (Dr. Pereira Gens)19

www.devilsfinalbattle.com/ch1.htm

​

 

[Writer]

Eden:

I am starting this thread to discuss the accusations by some Protestants that Marian apparitions are a deception of satan.

Here is a quote from Alfie from a discussion on another thread.

This thread is to discuss the idea that satan disguises himself as Mary to… lead people to Christ? The accusation is that we are deceived. Comments?

Well, I have a problem with some apparitions–Lady of Nations, for example–and I recently learned of some grave concerns regarding an apparition I always held to be true from a reliable forum member. I try to give them a wide berth myself, but I am not going to limit God by saying they don’t happen. Who are we to say," Now, now, God. You mustn’t do that!" That’s ridiculous. I think there are certainly valid apparitions, but the problem comes in discerning the true from the false–since lies can sometimes be given as half-truths, which are hard to spot unless you know your Bible. Unfortunately, many times it seems that my fellow Catholics want to believe in apparitions so badly that they lay aside their critical thinking a bit.

If anyone wants an excerpt on this topic from an article of mine, drop me an e-mail.

 

[Eden]

Writer:

Well, I have a problem with some apparitions–Lady of Nations, for example–and I recently learned of some grave concerns regarding an apparition I always held to be true from a reliable forum member. I try to give them a wide berth myself, but I am not going to limit God by saying they don’t happen. Who are we to say," Now, now, God. You mustn’t do that!" That’s ridiculous. I think there are certainly valid apparitions, but the problem comes in discerning the true from the false–since lies can sometimes be given as half-truths, which are hard to spot unless you know your Bible. Unfortunately, many times it seems that my fellow Catholics want to believe in apparitions so badly that they lay aside their critical thinking a bit.

If anyone wants an excerpt on this topic from an article of mine, drop me an e-mail.

We are talking about apparitions that are approved by the Church.

 

[ScottH]

Protestants love to try to tackle the Marian Apparitions to try to correct Roman Catholicism.

Yet, I’d invite many of those same Protestants to sit with many among their own ranks who claim up and down…

"God layed it upon my heart to…"
"I was given a vision to…"
"I felt the spirit move me to…"
"I was moved of the spirit to…"
"I felt the hand of God lead me to…"
"I feel called of the spirit to…"

Now, if you are going to villify all non-canonical apparitions, go for it. But why not apply the same standard to the many protestant pastors and churchgoers who are notorious for other unproveable spiritual proclamations they “feel” or have witnessed?

Riddle me this: couldn’t Satan work via incorrect “inspiration” if you contend that Satan can work through potentially dubious apparitions?

Its all fun and games until the rules apply elsewhere, isn’t it?

Its funny how protestantism rarely -if ever- attempts to correct itself… just Roman Cathlicism. How often to the protestants turn on the likes of Jack and Rexella Van Impe, Joel Osteen, or Pat Robertson for their outlandish proclamations?

Yup…just about never.

It’s worth investigating, that’s for sure.

 

[Writer]

Eden:

You are looking for apparitions experienced by Protestants, specifically Evangelicals? I don’t believe I have every heard of anyone in those categories being chosen to receive the message of an apparition. Sorry.

The types of miracles Evangelicals experience seem to be less supernatural and unexplainable by science and more in the category of “odds”. Statistically, if you have a car accident and the car rolls over 5 times - odds are at least once someone will survive that kind of tragedy. I’m not saying walking away from a car accident is *not *a miracle. I’m just saying that science or atheist would have an easier time explaining these kinds of phenomena with “statistical odds”. These kinds of survival stories or amazing recoveries from disease are often described by secular media as stories about “beating the odds”.

Something like the miracles witnessed in connection with an approved apparition, uncorruptible bodies of saints or the Eucharistic miracles do not have easy scientific answers that can be explained by “odds”.

My family has stories from the mission field where there were miracles, but not necessarily “apparitions”. One story re-counts angles who guarded missionaries, but could only be seen by the bandits who were following them at a safe distance. A relative of mine was also spoken to by an angel as a child, and delivered a very important message to her mother afterwards. Since a Protestant wouldn’t necessarily be all that comfortable with a Marian apparition, I believe that Christians of other traditions would experience God’s intervention in a different way–in a way they can more easily understand and draw hope from. It does not mean, however, that miracles to the Protestants are any less real than Fatima, for instance.