Archbishop Wilton Gregory will not deny Biden Communion

[TMC]

show me an example of any politician presenting themselves for communion unworthily, that is the topic of the thread

I am not following them around, are you? I thought your point is that you want (demand?) bishops to declare these people unworthy. I am not saying anyone is unworthy; I am just pointing out the hypocrisy of declaring politicians of one political stripe unworthy while ignoring similar issues in others.

you keep changing the goal, show me who else is presenting themselves for communion unworthily as Archbishop Chaput claims Biden is doing

I have not changed my position at all from the beginning. Perhaps you should ask Archbishop Chaput his basis for his claims that Biden is unworthy. I have made no such claims. (Remind me, what are Archbishop Chaput’s current pastoral duties?)

do you think Archbishop Chaput is playing politics?

I can not peer into his heart. I am just pointing out the obvious dichotomy between the treatment given to those of different political parties.

do you disagree with Archbishop Chaput that Biden is in error by presenting himself

I am happy to leave that issue to those with the authority to make that decision, which include Biden’s pastor, and his bishop, and neither you nor I.

 

[pnewton]

You seem to miss the fact that these people are in serious error and their salvation is in jeopardy.

That is not the canonical reason for denying communion. The point of scandal is legitimate, the idea of worthiness is not. There is no indication of serious error, if by that you mean grave sin. There is no heresy involved. There is no reason to know that the President-elect is unworthy for communion. I do not care who thinks this to be true, be it lay or cardinal, they usurp the judgment throne of God, claiming an omniscience they do not have.

Speaking of changing goal posts, if they would not keep moving, it might help. I see unworthiness, serious sin, then the switheroo over to scandal. Is this carelessness, or is it a lack of understanding of canon law in this case? Perhaps it is lack of understanding the difference between Church teaching on abortion, and the Church teaching on the legalization of abortion. I do not know. But if one does not understand these things, perhaps judging clergy would not be best.

You seem to want to ignore the pastoral advice…

As do you, at least the pastoral advice from the one person who matters in this case, AB Gregory.

 

[upant]

I am not following them around, are you? I thought your point is that you want (demand?) bishops to declare these people unworthy. I am not saying anyone is unworthy; I am just pointing out the hypocrisy of declaring politicians of one political stripe unworthy while ignoring similar issues in others.

I don’t want anything and I pointed out 2 GOP who if they presented themselves would be unworthy. they just don’t make it public like Biden.

I would like the bishops all on the same page, not one say yes and another no

Perhaps you should ask Archbishop Chaput his basis for his claims that Biden is unworthy.

his article is clear

Archbishop Chaput noted that, in answer to that situation, the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) issued a letter clarifying that Catholic politicians who campaign and vote for laws promoting abortion and similar grave moral evils should be “instructed” by their pastor on Church teaching and warned that they would be denied Communion. If they continued “with obstinate persistence” in their stance and still presented themselves for Communion, the CDF said, “the minister of Holy Communion must refuse to distribute it.”

“To my knowledge, that statement remains in effect,” Archbishop Chaput said on Friday. “The implications for the present moment are clear. Public figures who identify as ‘Catholic’ give scandal to the faithful when receiving Communion by creating the impression that the moral laws of the Church are optional.”

“And,” Archbishop Chaput continued, “bishops give similar scandal by not speaking up publicly about the issue and danger of sacrilege.”

am not following them around, are you?

yet you claim there are GOP in a similar state, I see none publicly declaring themselves worthy

 

[upant]

There is no indication of serious error, if by that you mean grave sin.

yet, you have Biden being denied communion

Perhaps it is lack of understanding the difference between Church teaching on abortion, and the Church teaching on the legalization of abortion

so which archbishop is correct in your opinion?

As do you, at least the pastoral advice from the one person who matters in this case, AB Gregory.

does Biden currently reside in DC or Delaware? Is AB Gregory over Delaware?

there was a task force set up to deal with this, why jump the gun? who is really playing politics?

Archbishop Chaput wrote on Friday that “Those bishops who publicly indicate in advance that they will undertake their own dialogue with President-elect Joseph Biden and allow him Communion effectively undermine the work of the task force established at the November bishops’ conference meeting to deal precisely with this and related issues.”

Archbishop Chaput said that unilateral action by bishops on Biden and Communion “gives scandal to their brother bishops and priests, and to the many Catholics who struggle to stay faithful to Church teaching.”

“It does damage to the bishops’ conference, to the meaning of collegiality, and to the fruitfulness of the conference’s advocacy work with the incoming administration.”

“When bishops publicly announce their willingness to give Communion to Mr. Biden, without clearly teaching the gravity of his facilitating the evil of abortion (and his approval of same-sex relationships), they do a serious disservice to their brother bishops and their people,” said Archbishop Chaput.

 

[JimG]

“And,” Archbishop Chaput continued, “bishops give similar scandal by not speaking up publicly about the issue and danger of sacrilege.”

 

[TMC]

yet you claim there are GOP in a similar state, I see none publicly declaring themselves worthy

Then your eyes are closed.

 

[stpurl]

Since your eyes are ‘open’, perhaps you’ll give upant the names of those GOP Catholics in a similar state of unworthiness (publically) who are presenting themselves for communion?

 

[TMC]

Since your eyes are ‘open’, perhaps you’ll give upant the names of those GOP Catholics in a similar state of unworthiness (publically) who are presenting themselves for communion?

As I said above, I will not stoop to the behavior I am complaining of by naming others as “unworthy”. If you cannot think of a GOP politician who supports birth control, the death penalty, and/or SSM, then you are not paying attention.

 

[upant]

If you cannot think of a GOP politician who supports birth control, the death penalty, and/or SSM, then you are not paying attention.

now you know that isn’t the issue, I named 2 that are pro-choice, but neither are publically causing a scandal by trying to receive

I will not stoop to the behavior I am complaining of by naming others as “unworthy”.

do you think people who support abortion are worthy to receive?

the person who publicly supports abortion and goes to receive is causing scandal, it has nothing to do with anyone deeming them anything. they convict themselves.

this is the issue of the thread, being denied communion. To be denied you have to go forth, which GOP is publicly going forth

let’s be honest, there isn’t any, the media would be all over it and playing the same blame game as you if there was

 

[pnewton]

The futues tense was used. Grammar.

 

[upant]

The futues tense was used. Grammar.

where? AB Gregory has already declared his advice,

however,

there was a task force set up to deal with this, why jump the gun? who is really playing politics?

 

[pnewton]

will1

/wil,wəl/

verb
expressing the future tense.

“you will regret it when you are older”

 

[upant]

will1

Sorry I don’t see “your” will in what I quoted

As do you, at least the pastoral advice from the one person who matters in this case, AB Gregory.

 

[pnewton]

We are too far apart. I was referring to the AB Gregory, and why he had a reason to say what he did about President-elect Biden, even though Biden currently resides in Delaware. His reason is that he spoke in the future tense, knowing that in one month the Biden’s will be in his diocese.

 

[TMC]

now you know that isn’t the issue, I named 2 that are pro-choice, but neither are publically causing a scandal by trying to receive

That is the issue. Are you saying that the only teaching that Catholic politicians are bound to follow is the teaching on abortion? Outside of that, they can do whatever they want without scandal or repercussion?

 

[upant]

His reason is that he spoke in the future tense, knowing that in one month the Biden’s will be in his diocese.

He spoke it now before anyone could force his hand

He knows there is a task force working on the issue

Are you saying that the only teaching that Catholic politicians are bound to follow is the teaching on abortion? Outside of that, they can do whatever they want without scandal or repercussion?

I am saying the issue of this thread is receiving communion when one should not

What GOP is doing that publicly and causing scandal

Biden is, he has been refused prior and hasn’t changed his position on expanding abortion

 

[JimG]

It seems that reasons can always be found for bishops to avoid speaking up about Catholic politicians who support abortion. But I think that Bishop Chaput is correct when he notes that “bishops give similar scandal by not speaking up publicly about the issue and danger of sacrilege.”

 

[TMC]

I am saying the issue of this thread is receiving communion when one should not

What GOP is doing that publicly and causing scandal

Biden is, he has been refused prior and hasn’t changed his position on expanding abortion

I have answered this repeatedly, and your consistent response is that the GOP is not pro-choice. If you agree that abortion is not the only political issue capable of conflicting with Catholic teaching (which is obvious) then you must surely agree that virtually every GOP politician publicly supports issues that go contrary to Catholic teachings. I have named several in this thread, including the death penalty, birth control and SSM. Every well known GOP politician goes against the Church on the first two, and the vast majority on the third.

The issue I have raised is the dichotomy between how some in the Church treat Dem politicians who advocate against the Church’s teachings on abortion, and those who advocate against the Church’s teachings on other issues. You keep acting as if I have not repeatedly explained that. If you are fine with the hypocrisy of only caring about one teaching and none of the others, you can just say that.

 

[Elf01]

Every well known GOP politician goes against the Church on the first two, and the vast majority on the third.

How many of them present themselves for Holy Communion.

 

[TMC]

How many of them present themselves for Holy Communion.

If they are Catholic, I assume they do. I don’t follow them around. Regardless, should they not face the same degree of scrutiny and public calumny as Dem politicians that fail to support Catholic teachings? Why is it that we routinely have these calls to punish Catholic Dems, but Catholic Republicans get a pass?