Archbishop Wilton Gregory will not deny Biden Communion

[upant]

Church authority does not work with each Catholic picking their favorite bishop to follow.

are Bishops Burke and Chaput wrong in stating Biden shouldn’t approach?

there are rules,

In 2004, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, then head of the Church’s doctrinal office, told U.S. bishops in a memo that a Catholic politician “consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws” is engaged in “manifest” and “formal cooperation” in grave sin.

In such a case, the politician’s “pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Church’s teaching, informing him that he is not to present himself for Holy Communion until he brings to an end the objective situation of sin, and warning him that he will otherwise be denied the Eucharist,” Cardinal Ratzinger wrote.

If the Catholic perseveres in grave sin and still presents himself for Holy Communion, “the minister of Holy Communion must refuse to distribute it.”

 

[pnewton]

are Bishops Burke and Chaput wrong in stating Biden shouldn’t approach?

Sort of. From the document.

In such a case, the politician’s “pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Church’s teaching

Notice that there is no room for a bishop-at-large to intervene and make the decision. Also, Biden has not voted for anything for a long time, so the first line does apply.

I am not bishop, but from my very limited perspective, I think it is premature to know what will happen. I believe I have expressed this several times.

 

[upant]

Sort of. From the document.

You are arguing procedure,

They are right in the rule,

He has stated what he will do. He is already afoul of the rule based just on his campaigning to expand abortion. He has voted before and hasn’t expressed a change of heart. He has been denied recently.

Why the excuses for Biden. He will start with the Mexico City policy

I think it is premature to know what will happen.

All you have to do is listen to him, you don’t need your magic 8 ball

 

[pnewton]

He is already afoul of the rule based just on his campaigning to expand abortion.

Cardinal Ratzinger use the word “and,” not “or.”

All you have to do is listen to him, you don’t need your magic 8 ball

I broke it, remember? Well, I didn’t. That was my cat. Balls roll and are fun to chase. But yes, I will admit to excessive optimism, as it is a safeguard (for me) against rashness, to which I may be prone.

 

[upant]

Cardinal Ratzinger use the word “and,” not “or.”

We know he campaigned on expanding abortion.

Are you saying Biden never voted for an abortion bill? You claim time, but is a wrong not a wrong because it happened a long time ago? Now how do I know he hasn’t been to confession for it? I don’t have to know because I am relying on those who would know, unless you believe these 2 bishops are wrong.

But yes, I will admit to excessive optimism, as it is a safeguard (for me) against rashness, to which I may be prone.

I rely on his words, history, the audience the message is for, and who is paying him, I mean contributing to his campaign

I am rarely surprised.

I would like to be this time

I would love to say I am wrong about Joe

We shall see, Mexico City policy will be gone in the first month if not week

 

[pnewton]

I have no idea what happens in another’s confessional. That is kind of the point. His voting record as a Senator was not consistent though, voting in favor of prohibiting late term abortions, and abstaining from some votes.

I do not believe the argument can be made that the President-elect cannot receive communion because he is not in a state of grace. I do believe there is an argument for his reception of the Eucharist being a scandal, thus not allowed under canon law. However, that too is a matter for his local bishop to decide.

 

[upant]

His voting record as a Senator was not consistent though, voting in favor of prohibiting late term abortions, and abstaining from some votes.

he supported abortion and voted for it. he did not try and lessen it.

he campaigned on expanding it

I do not believe the argument can be made that the President-elect cannot receive communion because he is not in a state of grace.

as I said, I trust the judgment of the 2 bishops.

I do believe there is an argument for his reception of the Eucharist being a scandal,

and the bigger scandal is the disagreement among the clergy

there are rules.

 

[JimG]

We shall see, Mexico City policy will be gone in the first month if not week

I expect it will be gone by executive order on day one.

 

[esieffe]

I dont remember him being all that liberal in Atlanta. What a shame. I have resigned myself that this kind of thing is just going to happen.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Bishops Burke and Chaput are correct in this matter.

Cardinal Burke and Archbishop Chaput have expressed their thoughts.

Neither of them have any jurisdiction in this matter.

Indeed, Archbishop Chaput is now retired and the policies of the Archdiocese he had governed are now wholly and entirely in the hands of his successor.

The newly elected President’s canonical domicile is in the Diocese of Wilmington…whose Bishop welcomes Mr. Biden to receive the Eucharist, as his prerogative as diocesan bishop. When the new President takes up his new residence, he will be in the jurisdiction of His Eminence, Wilton Cardinal Gregory, who has announced his determination.

The good Cardinal has been a bishop for almost 40 years now…and an exceptional one. A former president of the Bishops Conference of the United States. He does not lack in any way any understanding of the situations about which he has power of governance.

The United States is very fortunate to have this gifted prelate now as a Cardinal so that he may play a more prominent role in the Church in that country. Seeing him elevated to the College made me very happy indeed.

 

[upant]

He does not lack in any way any understanding of the situations about which he has power of governance.

So why the need to supersede the task force set up by the bishops conference. He isn’t yet in a position to do anything.

Why is his advice against what was put out by Rome. When bishops play politics the church loses.

Biden will expand abortion, bishop Chaput and Burke are correct in their opinion according to church teaching put out by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Abortion is the priority issue according to the bishops, if violating this policy does make one unworthy, what does?

Or do we all get to ignore the warning of St Paul

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Let us be clear:

1. I have seen nothing in the Cardinal’s statements that oppose Rome’s counsels on matters touching on this subject. Actually quite the opposite.
2. Pope Francis is quite aware that the United States has elected a new President and that he is Catholic. He was, after all, sitting behind the Pope when the Pope delivered an address to a joint session of your Congress during his visit to the United States. He has met your new President.
3. If the Pope had any advice for his new Cardinal, he is more than able to give it voice. That is without doubt. Aside from the Holy Father, there is no one who can or should give unsolicited advice to the Cardinal. His actions are judged only by the Pope.
4. You are entitled to your opinions. Your conclusions are based on incomplete particulars from which you have drawn conclusions that are, in fact, not the only conclusions one can reach because we are speaking of a pastoral situation. The opinions and conclusions hold absolutely no interest for me because they not soundly arrived at – and I dare say they would hold even less for the Cardinal.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

This is all nonsense

You are avoiding the questions while upant has called out the GOP like you asked.

 

[whatistrue]

hasn’t changed his position on expanding abortion

Whoooooooosh…

That was you completely missing the (low-flying) point. Deliberate? Or not?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

That was you completely missing the (low-flying) point. Deliberate? Or not?

Upant said that those that commit scandal shouldn’t recieve including GOP.

 

[upant]

touching on this subject. Actually quite the opposite.

per Cardinal Ratzinger’s direction, Biden should not present himself and if he does, he should be encouraged to change his behavior or be refused. really plain and simple, why make excuses for a politician who is causing scandal?

Pope Francis is quite aware that the United States has elected a new President and that he is Catholic. He was, after all, sitting behind the Pope when the Pope delivered an address to a joint session of your Congress during his visit to the United States. He has met your new President.

so have I, what’s your point? Is it a sin to support abortion, SSM, and euthanasia or not. He supports these and has not denounced them, in fact, he campaigned on expanding abortion.

If the Pope had any advice for his new Cardinal, he is more than able to give it voice. That is without doubt. Aside from the Holy Father, there is no one who can or should give unsolicited advice to the Cardinal. His actions are judged only by the Pope.

. . . . the Church has rules even the cardinal is required to follow. if people would have spoke up during the sexual abuse scandal, the right thing could have happened instead of just moving the problem until it was too big to hide. people knew and remained silent,

Your conclusions are based on incomplete particulars from which you have drawn conclusions that are,

Those conclusions aren’t mine, did you read the articles? those conclusions are from bishops in the church. This isn’t just an ordinary person’s view.

in fact, not the only conclusions one can reach because we are speaking of a pastoral situation

rules are rules, sin is sin, the salvation of the party may be involved per St Paul. He was perfectly clear.

The opinions and conclusions hold absolutely no interest for me

so what, are you any different than any other Joe? the issue is the scandal it is causing for those who see the real problem, it is wrong for most of the people but not all the people. if you have a bishop in your pocket…

because they not soundly arrived at –

what exactly do the bishops have wrong per the offense of supporting abortion and presenting oneself for communion?

and I dare say they would hold even less for the Cardinal.

why didn’t he wait for the ruling of the task force that was set up to handle the issue? why jump the gun when it isn’t his decision yet?

 

[whatistrue]

Biden’s actions which 2 bishops said is wrong

You seem to have “forgotten” that those 2 bishops have no jurisdiction over the individual under discussion, so their opinion means zip.

 

[whatistrue]

Seems like maybe you missed it as well. That was not what I was talking about.

 

[upant]

You seem to have “forgotten” that those 2 bishops have no jurisdiction over the individual under discussion, so their opinion means zip.

neither is b gregory.

it doesn’t change the rule the bishops were discussing

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Seems like maybe you missed it as well. That was not what I was talking about.

Then it probably wasn’t deliberate.