Are you literally on fire if you go to hell?

[belorg]

You can become a Catholic by knowing very little.

Well, becoming an atheist takes some more trouble.

You claimed to know just about everything.

Just about everything substantial, yes.

My point was to observe this exaggeration on your part. It caused me to question what you have to say.

I was not an exaggaration, so no need to question what I have to say.

That’s a very good attitude, and a very good reason to be on this site (I wish more people took that approach). If you’re open to learning more you will discover more about these matters of conscience and morality, etc. That’s how to improve your interpretation.

But let me tell you that what I’ve learned here so far has strengthened my conviction that the Christian God does not exist.

I was referring to the claim of knowing “just about everything”. There’s a lot to know in Catholic teaching: moral theology, ecclesiology, lives of the saints, spiritual practices, mystical theology, Catholic history, Catholic social teaching, aesthetics, Catholic philosophy, liturgy, dogmatics … much more.

Mist of which are irrelevant to the claim I am making. e.g. I do not have a problem with Catholic social teaching or liturgy or even with spirityla practices.

What do you mean that the basis of Catholicism is a logical contradiction? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

By reading and studying a lot.

 

[tonyrey]

That is a straw-man. I never said that hell is not a place of suffering. I said that hell is not a physical lake of fire in which God disposes of the people that don’t measure up.

In fact hell is not a place at all!

 

[tonyrey]

Well, becoming an atheist takes some more trouble.

 

[belorg]

belorg;8779569:

All you have to do is utter one word!

Which word might that be, Tony?

"Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp’d tow’rs, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant

faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on; and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep."
The Tempest Act 4,

Well, as a matter of fact, I have also studied Shakespeare.

Has it strengthened your conviction that you exist for no** reason**

whatsoever?

Yes it has.

“Books! tis a dull and endless strife:
Come, hear the woodland linnet,
How sweet his music! on my life,
There’s more of wisdom in it.” - William Wordsworth

It seems Words are not worth very much according to William

"The best remedy for those who are afraid, lonely or unhappy is to go outside, somewhere where they can be quiet, alone with the heavens, nature and God. Because only then does one feel that all is as it should be and that God wishes to see people happy

, amidst the simple beauty of nature." Anne Frank

Well, God surely made Anne Frank happy.

 

[reggieM]

On the side that believes in demons that torture?

Do you think that demons harrass human beings on earth today?

 

[Fragile]

I think we can all agree that it is a place we should avoid at all cost!

 

[reggieM]

Mist of which are irrelevant to the claim I am making. e.g. I do not have a problem with Catholic social teaching or liturgy or even with spirityla practices.

It’s good that you don’t have a problem with those things.

I should mention that my point is not to say that you’re ignorant or anything like that. I’m not trying to get into a contest about who knows more about what … that’s not the point I’m getting at.

The reason it’s important to grow in knowledge of Catholic studies is because each subject area confirms and strengthens evidence in the existence of God.

If for, example, a person only knows only basic catechism teaching (which is very good to know), he knows nothing about the lives of thousands of Catholic saints. He may know nothing about the mystical/spiritual teaching of St. John of the Cross, for example. He may know nothing about the spiritual teachings of the founders of religious orders – how their rule of life taught people.

Most importantly, regarding spiritual practice – Catholic teaching is not just about “knowing what the practice is” but actually “doing” the practice. You actually have to work at it and improve over time. That’s part of the learning. This learning teaches about the truth that God does exist.

So, I question – how could a Catholic who has become mature and good at Catholic spiritual practice, the practice of virtue, the efficacy of prayer – end up as an atheist?

I’ll say, it’s a very rare thing indeed.

The claim that you’re making is that “your conscience tells you to be an atheist”.

My questions to you are an attempt to see if that is correct. If you deceive yourself about your knowledge of Catholicism (which it seems to me that you have), then could you also be deceiving yourself about what you think your conscience is saying?

Self-deception is the enemy of a clear conscience. You have to be brutally honest with yourself. That means, when you say something about yourself in a public forum like this, you should be saying things that are humble, clear, very honest and truthful.

If you did that, then there’s a good chance that your “inner dialogue” with yourself and your conscience is also very honest.

Because that’s the struggle with conscience that we all have. Our conscience often tells us something we don’t want to hear. Then, we have to realize that we did something wrong, etc. But to get to that point, we usually question our conscience. Could that be right? Did I really do something wrong?

That questioning requires a lot of honesty and sometimes courage.

I’m not trying to insult your intelligence or anything like that.

To answer your previous question, I’ve been studying Catholic teaching for over 35 years and I don’t think I really know more than 1% of the wealth of knowledge that is available.

But every bit of knowledge that I gain only strengthens my conviction that God truly exists, He loves us, He is involved in every detail of our life and if we communicate with Him, He will reveal his love and care for us.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Do you think that demons harass human beings on earth today?

I dare say, for those out side the will of God, that perhaps there will be a hierarchical type society, most probably with Lucifer at the top. It would not surprise me that “fallen angels” (not God) will torment people for entertainment. There is no reason to think that people outside of God will be physically separated. Perhaps there will even be kingdoms ran by different demons and unending wars, and that is only if it is even reasonable to speak of heaven and hell in the sense of “duration”. Who knows? Perhaps, its completely different.

What i do know is that the existence of an eternal lake of fire caused and maintained by God does not correspond to Gods nature.

 

[tonyrey]

                                                             *All you have to do is utter one word!*

Balderdash!

"Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp’d tow’rs, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant

faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on; and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep."
The Tempest Act 4, Well, as a matter of fact, I have also studied Shakespeare.

Then you may appreciate his insight and wisdom…

Has it strengthened your conviction that you exist for no** reason**

whatsoever? Yes it has.

Do you live as if you exist for no reason whatsoever?

“Books! tis a dull and endless strife:
Come, hear the woodland linnet,
How sweet his music! on my life,
There’s more of wisdom in it.” - William Wordsworth

It seems Words are not worth very much according to William.

Life without words would have been nothing for a poet with his dedication to “the real language of men”.

"The best remedy for those who are afraid, lonely or unhappy is to go outside, somewhere where they can be quiet, alone with the heavens, nature and God. Because only then does one feel that all is as it should be and that God wishes to see people happy

, amidst the simple beauty of nature." Anne FrankWell, God surely made Anne Frank happy.

Her faith and courage enabled her to survive in terrible circumstances.

 

[reggieM]

I dare say, for those out side the will of God, that perhaps there will be a hierarchical type society, most probably with Lucifer at the top. It would not surprise me that “fallen angels” (not God) will torment people for entertainment. Perhaps there will even be kingdoms ran by different demons and unending wars, and that is only if it is even reasonable to speak of heaven and hell in the sense “duration”. Who knows? Perhaps, its completely different.

What i do know is that the existence of an eternal lake of fire caused and maintained by God does not correspond to Gods nature.

It’s good that you’re open to that possibility that the fallen angels will torment people. That’s the way I see it also. Those who die in a spirit of hatred and war against God and other people – will preserve their souls in that condition. Instead of a communion of saints, there is a different kind of communion for them.

There’s actually a satisfaction of sorts in Hell – because that’s part of justice.
God grants some justice to Satan and the demons. For all the souls they have won over on earth, they have power over them in Hell. They are granted the rights of tormenting them, since they were “successful” in their temptations. They did their “work” and God gives the “reward” – they can own their slaves.
But Satan and demons don’t even benefit from tormenting people – it only makes things worse. The little “satisfaction” they get only increases their hatred and loss.

A nearly perfect analogy on earth is the life of a human being who is severely addicted to some vice (drugs, lust, gambling, etc). The little pleasure they get from the vice actually makes their life worse. They know that they deserve the punishment of loss that the addiction causes, but they don’t want to leave it. That’s like the damned in Hell. They prefer the life of hatred and their own sin, to the liberation of heaven.

Regarding the lake of fire:

All of the souls that are burning with hatred of God, are caused and maintained by God. It’s part of justice. They were given infinite potential for good. Their souls will live forever – that’s a gift that God does not take away.

Those souls hold themselves captive – in their own sins. They do not want forgiveness.

They have freely chosen that burning hatred. They use the infinite potential for divine love, to love only themselves or passing pleasures … but that eternal potential for love continues to exist. Instead of producing joy, however, it produces the consequences of hatred, sin, lust and violence – which are the burning, flaming passions of tormented consciences.

Intense love turned to hatred among millions of creatures. Call it a lake of fire. Call it Satan’s kingdom where the social order of God is turned into a society built on despair, violence and anger.

 

[reggieM]

GEddie;8777978:

I disdain the** earthly**

idea of corruptible physical being in favour of the heavenly idea of glorified physical being - like our Lord.

Ok, but it’s important to be careful with words.

A glorified physical being is a physical being … in a glorified state.

So, you’re agreeing that the effects of heaven occur on soul and body - on a spiritual/physical being.

The effects of hell would occur in the same way, right?

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Some people enjoy dwelling on the horrors of hell but rarely consider the joys of heaven. If you believe God is infinitely loving and died for **all of us **on the Cross you will see hell in its true perspective. He doesn’t punish or torture anyone or gloat over their fate. He loves everyone for all eternity, is infinitely merciful as well as infinitely just and wants **all of us **to be reunited with Him in heaven. Whether we are damned depends **entirely **on ourselves…

That is a super liberal catholic interpretation at best, but more than likely a protestant interpretation.

You sound an awful lot like a Universalist.

 

[reggieM]

That is a super liberal catholic interpretation at best, but more than likely a protestant interpretation.

You sound an awful lot like a Universalist.

How would you re-state or correct what he said? (I can’t see where it’s wrong, myself).

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

How would you re-state or correct what he said? (I can’t see where it’s wrong, myself).

He doesn’t punish or torture anyone or gloat over their fate.

It is punishment. It’s His justice.

 

[reggieM]

It is punishment. It’s His justice.

Ok, true.

He doesn’t -]punish or/-] torture anyone or gloat over their fate.

I wouldn’t call that super-liberal Catholic though. There’s far more liberal interpretations – the main one is that there is no Hell at all.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

I wouldn’t call that super-liberal Catholic though. There’s far more liberal interpretations – the main one is that there is no Hell at all.

I agree. Very true.

I suppose that I wouldn’t call that person a catholic, though, if he didn’t believe in the dogma of hell.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

They have freely chosen that burning hatred. They use the infinite potential for divine love, to love only themselves or passing pleasures … but that eternal potential for love continues to exist. Instead of producing joy, however, it produces the consequences of hatred, sin, lust and violence – which are the burning, flaming passions of tormented consciences.

Intense love turned to hatred among millions of creatures. Call it a lake of fire. Call it Satan’s kingdom where the social order of God is turned into a society built on despair, violence and anger.

…Thats okay so long as we can agree that its not a physical lake of fire; otherwise we are going to have to agree to disagree. But the rest of what you said was interesting and not too far fetched. Although, it would have been better if you had said that God permits their suffering at the hands of demons because they freely choose that situation, rather than handing them over as a “right” that the devils have earned.

The one thing that clarifies to me that the people in hell are tormented by demons, is the fact that God permits demonic possession in this world; but to a limited degree. Although maybe somebody has an argument against that? Does God really allow unlimited torture; are there no boundaries or limitations to what the demons can do to humans and one another?

I am reluctant.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

That is a super liberal catholic interpretation at best, but more than likely a protestant interpretation.

You sound an awful lot like a Universalist.

Not really. If God is intrinsically love by nature, then God only does that which necessarily fulfills that love.

 

[reggieM]

I agree. Very true.

I suppose that I wouldn’t call that person a catholic, though, if he didn’t believe in the dogma of hell.

I wouldn’t either but they continue to think that they’re Catholic and they’re in parishes and many actually attend Sunday Mass … so they’re “Catholic” in that sense.

– Some will believe that Hell exists, but almost nobody goes there.
– Others think that only certain (unforgiven) mortal sins will result in Hell, not any of them.
– More and more “Catholics” are proposing that Hell is temporary - it just lasts for a while.
– Some think that only notorious bad guys (or their own personal enemies) are in Hell.
– Probably the most common liberal approach is to never admit that Hell exists – it’s just something they don’t want to talk about. You can never pin them down. When asked directly if they think Hell exists, they change the topic and don’t answer. The rest of the time, they will never speak about it – never openly denying it, but just totally ignoring it. Never calling it a myth or symbol, but just never even mentioning the word.
Maybe they think the word Hell is a curse word so they can’t say it.

 

[belorg]

It’s good that you don’t have a problem with those things.

I should mention that my point is not to say that you’re ignorant or anything like that. I’m not trying to get into a contest about who knows more about what … that’s not the point I’m getting at.

The reason it’s important to grow in knowledge of Catholic studies is because each subject area confirms and strengthens evidence in the existence of God.

Of course. because that’s its purpose. If you study athiesm, thehn each subject area confirms and strengthens evindence that God does not exist. It’s a matter of balance. which of the two is the most reasonable position to hold. and both my conscience and my intellect tell me that it’s atheism.
DSoes that mean I cannot be wrong? No, of course not. but it means that if I am wrong it’s because I am mistaken, not because I choose to be wrong.

If for, example, a person only knows only basic catechism teaching (which is very good to know), he knows nothing about the lives of thousands of Catholic saints.

Well, I admit, there are thousands of Catholic Saints I do not knwo anything about. But then again, who does know everything about all of them. You don’t, and it does not matter to you.

Most importantly, regarding spiritual practice – Catholic teaching is not just about “knowing what the practice is” but actually “doing” the practice. You actually have to work at it and improve over time. That’s part of the learning. This learning teaches about the truth that God does exist.

No, Reggie, that is not part of the leanring, that’s part of the indoctrination and amounts to brainwashing…And it is actually self-deception. I agree that we should be opene-minded, but that means we at all times have to look upon things from various perspectives, not just one.

So, I question – how could a Catholic who has become mature and good at Catholic spiritual practice, the practice of virtue, the efficacy of prayer – end up as an atheist?

By being opne-minded, probably.

I’ll say, it’s a very rare thing indeed.

It may be rare, but I personally know several ex-catholics and even ex-priests who are atheists now.
And of course, once youi have dug yourself in the treches of Catholicism it’s not so easy to get out.

The claim that you’re making is that “your conscience tells you to be an atheist”.

Yes.

My questions to you are an attempt to see if that is correct. If you deceive yourself about your knowledge of Catholicism (which it seems to me that you have), then could you also be deceiving yourself about what you think your conscience is saying?

My co,scie,nce can be wrong, but I am not deceiving it.

Self-deception is the enemy of a clear conscience.

Self-deception is the result of an unclear conscience.

You have to be brutally honest with yourself. That means, when you say something about yourself in a public forum like this, you should be saying things that are humble, clear, very honest and truthful.

I did.

If you did that, then there’s a good chance that your “inner dialogue” with yourself and your conscience is also very honest.

I belive it is.

Because that’s the struggle with conscience that we all have. Our conscience often tells us something we don’t want to hear. Then, we have to realize that we did something wrong, etc. But to get to that point, we usually question our conscience. Could that be right? Did I really do something wrong?

Yes, I do that all the time.

That questioning requires a lot of honesty and sometimes courage.

Sure

I’m not trying to insult your intelligence or anything like that.

To answer your previous question, I’ve been studying Catholic teaching for over 35 years and I don’t think I really know more than 1% of the wealth of knowledge that is available.

if 1% to you is enough to convince you of its truth, then why would my knowledge not suffice to convince me of the opposite. Maybe I was lucky enough to find just that 1% that proves it wrong?

But every bit of knowledge that I gain only strengthens my conviction that God truly exists, He loves us, He is involved in every detail of our life and if we communicate with Him, He will reveal his love and care for us.

Well, He may love you, but He doesn’t seem to care a bit about me.