Arrogance & Hypocrisy of "Traditionalists"

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And, And, And

I thought we’d make it more than four days without catholic versus catholic.
Doesn’t look like it.
Where is our bipartisanship people?
Anyway, why can’t we get along?
This forum sometimes makes it hard to understand what Catholic is all about. Everyone fights, fights, fights.
No common ground is ever met. We are all the same people. Why do we fight so much?
Think about it. The highlight of the Mass and our Faith is the Belief in the Body and Blood of Christ. If we all agree that the new mass and the old mass both consist of this, and we believe that the Eucharist is really the Body and Blood of Christ, we’re supporting the major Catholic belief.
Can’t we get along for at least 7 days without sspx this, traditionalist that, polka mass that, cheese head mass this, rainbow mass that… come on.
Complain all you want. Do something about it if you don’t like it. God Bless the internet.
Can’t we all accept that we are brothers and Sisters in Christ.
If you have an issue within you parish, please address it. I see things every week at certain churches that make my skin crawl. But you know what, I still receive the Body of Christ and it is ALL GOOD. As long as I can receive Communion at Mass and it is legit, I am a happy camper. I can pray through the hoop-la I don’t agree with, and just be glad I belong TO THE ORIGNAL AND TRUE CHURCH.
 
Its interesting that anyone would call the TLM reactionary, when in reality the NO was the reactionary Mass to the TLM. Considering that through ORGANIC changes such as stipulated by Pius V the NO resembles nothing but a Lutheran rite it isn’t our burden to defend the TLM.
 
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mgy100:
Where is our bipartisanship people?
Anyway, why can’t we get along?
This forum sometimes makes it hard to understand what Catholic is all about. Everyone fights, fights, fights.
No common ground is ever met. We are all the same people. Why do we fight so much?
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You did check out the antagonistic OP didn’t you. Maybe you should address your question directly to him.If he wants a fight, he’ll get it. But you can’t open a thread with that tone and not expect problems.
 
I think the thread name could have been picked better. It is not the average “Traditionalist” that is the problem. It is the “Rad-Trad” that is the problem.

To be a “Traditionalist” is to follow tradition which includes obedience to the Church. The “Rad-Trad” is just another form of cafeteria-Catholic. Picking and chooseing what Church teachings to follow while rationalizing away what they do not. They are no better than the protestants, they lift themselves up in authority over the Church.

As for those sining the praises of the SSPX linking the rise of the SSPX with the Indult for the old Latin Mass, that is just too funny because these same people scream out against EMHC, female altar servers, and communion in hand.

What is so funny is that those issues along with the Indult are the cause of the same thing, the Vatican giving in to a vocal minority who wants something.

As for the comments about architecture and tabernacle placement, those really are matters of preference.

The kneeling issue is different for me as a Byzantine. We do not kneel in the Byzantine tradition (some places do but that is a left over latinization). Standing is the correct posture, kneeling is penitential. I can understand some of those on the side that wish to do away with kneeling in the Latin Church. For me I see this as inculturalation. We do not kneel in America, we stand. Just a thought, I can go either way on this.
 
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Marie:
I cannot speak for Nota Bene’s position…but I can empathize. A few weeks ago, a lady who was helping out at a fund raiser got into an innocent discussion, with a Trad friend of mine. She mentioned offhandedly how the DaVinci Code had awoken her faith. All of the sudden, my dear Trad friend got mad as all get out and accused her of all manner of Crimes against Christ and stomped off.

The poor woman was in tears…While trying to calm her down, I discovered… as Paul Harvey would say…the rest of the story.

She had meant to express, that it made her search for the truth of her Catholic faith. She had been pretty blasé about her faith. Reading it (Davince Code) offended her and she did not know why.

She began to research the truths of our faith and became interested in apologetics and how to grow in her faith and defend it.

Needless to say, I love my friend Jim, but I was mightily offended that he had wounded so deeply, a Catholic sister…just because he thinks he is better than those who are not Traditional.

Sad to say…if he had been patient, and listened to Sandy, he would have found Sandy is as in love with the truth and the faith as he is. He could have helped her…but he walked away…judging her as a heretic. He wounded her deeply, and she is just beginnig to learn and love the faith. 😦
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Why do you attribute the actions of one person to an entire group? You seem to be guilty of what you are charging others of. It has become accusation upon accuasation from both ends of the spectrum.

Can we agree that over time there has become an inbalance in the way the mass is celebrated and the way the faith is passed on? It many respects those with a rebellious attitude have reached positions of authority and many Catholics have taken their cue from these people. In response, some have overreacted. That does not say ever single person who prefers the Latin mass is a reactionary schismatic and every single person who prefers the NO is a heterodox dissenter.
 
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Perhaps you could list some examples to clarify your position?
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I’ll try . . . 😃
  1. I’ve only been to the Indult Mass offered in our diocese so I can’t make a general statement concerning the practice of other Indult Communities. (I do attend the TLM regularly, though I’m what was considered pre-Vatican II as a ‘High Mass liberal’. As St. Augustine says: He who sings prays twice.) Now, I’ve gone from parish to parish in my diocese visiting, and I’ve yet to find a Roman Catholic church that is built with the proper orientation of the apse facing east. The church where the TLM is celebrated is on an east/west axis but the apse is facing west and not east exactly as St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. Now according to *Ritus servandus in celebratione Missae V,3 *the celebrant should be facing east and therefore also facing the people. Seems to me that liturgical law is being circumvented here simply because most of the people attending would freak out if the TLM was celebrated ‘versus populum’, never mind that the Popes have celebrated the Mass versus populum ad Orientem (turned to the people towards the East) since St. Constantine first had St. Peter’s built. Am I wrong here that liturgical abuse is liturgical abuse?
  2. Reciting the *Confiteor, Misereatur *and Indulgentiam before the communion of the faithful. Pope John XXIII’s instruction Rubricarum Instructum explicitly says that not only is the proper time for Holy Communion within the context of the Mass after the Priest’s Communion but that the *Confiteor, Misereatur *and Indulgentiam are to be omitted. Motu proprio Rubricarum instructum, Pope John XXIII, July 25, 1960 (Novum rubricarum breviarii et missalis romani corpus approbatur, AAS 52, 593-595)
    Part 3, Chapter 8, I. 502-503.
  3. How about the implementation according to the liturgical law of Rubricarum Instructum that the principles of De Musica Sacra be implemented? Novum rubricarum brevarii et missalis romani corpus approbatur, AAS 52, 1960, 593-595. Moto proprio of Pope John XXIII July 25, 1960 (Rubricarum instructum); De musica sacra, AAS 50, 1958, 630-663. Instruction of the Sacred Congregation of Rites September 3, 1958. Nos. 28-32.; Decree of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, July 26, 1960, AAS 52, 596 No. 272. We can’t get a dialogue Mass in my Indult community simply because they wish to ignore liturgical directives on the fuller participation (read: extreme traditionalists).
These are the problems I deal with as someone who merely would like to have rubrical and licit Masses along with the Gregorian Chant, Latin responses, incense and the other things that speak to me personally. What in actuality is the case is that I’ve simply traded the liturgical abuses of the current *missa normativa *for the liturgical abuses of 1962 editio typica. The fact that this is so seems to me to support Nota Bene’s conclusions.

Pax,
Keith
www.sanctamecclesiamcatholicam.blogspot.com
 
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GregChant1545:
Its interesting that anyone would call the TLM reactionary, when in reality the NO was the reactionary Mass to the TLM. Considering that through ORGANIC changes such as stipulated by Pius V the NO resembles nothing but a Lutheran rite it isn’t our burden to defend the TLM.
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And no one would ask Traditionalists to do so, except that their love for it has lead some to disparge the Mass of Paul VI (which they aren’t supposed to do under the Indult), some to deny the validity of the Mass of Paul VI, some to deny the authority of Vatican II, some to deny the authority of the popes to form the order of the Mass, and some to deny that there is a valid pope at all. It has lead some people into schism. Now, if you don’t qualify as falling into any of those categories, you have nothing to defend. If you do fall into any of those categories, it does become your burden to defend yourself. I’m not attempting to defend any abuse in the way the Mass of Paul VI is celebrated, nor any moderism, or liberalism. I can defend my position by citing that little verse in Matthew when Our Lord established Peter as the rock on which He would build His Church.
 
Two Words: FREAKING ARRRRRRRRGH!!! :mad:

Pope is the head of the Church. First lesson in Catholic politics (and we do have politics!!! WE LOVE OUR POLITICS…)

This means that he is in charge of the ONE (UNITY) HOLY (DIVINELY ESTABLISHED) CATHOLIC (UNIVERSAL) and APOSTOLIC (HANDED DOWN THROUGH THE APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE WHOLE WORLD) FAITH.

WHY ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT THIS??? One person worships at a New Mass; one worships at a Tridentine Mass (Which is very cool by the way, I’ve been to one, in union with Rome, I won’t go near an SSPX church) another worships at a chapel, while still another worships God in front of a blue mailbox owned by the United States Postal Service.

IT’S THE SAME GOD!!! ONE Lord, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism!!! And the successor of Peter, John Paul II, is at the helm!!! So lay off the throat tearing. We’re all Catholics!!! Its the same Jesus Christ we receive in the Eucharist. So knock off the arguing… before I come and kick your heinie 😃 😃
 
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Can we agree that over time there has become an inbalance in the way the mass is celebrated and the way the faith is passed on? It many respects those with a rebellious attitude have reached positions of authority and many Catholics have taken their cue from these people. In response, some have overreacted. That does not say ever single person who prefers the Latin mass is a reactionary schismatic and every single person who prefers the NO is a heterodox dissenter.
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Yes, this is all I’ve ever believed about this issue. However, on this very thread (taking it as an example) Traditional Catholics have posted and Rad Trads have posted (see the post that links to Traditio.com, a site that denies that JPII is a valid pope, and states that no one should go to the Mass of Paul VI). When someone rightly points out that this is dissent, or that SSPX is schismatic, and their leaders excommunicated, I would suggest that Traditional Catholics not muddy the water by defending them, by not linking to sites that mock the Mass of Paul VI or question the validity of papal leadership. No one on these forums defends the abuses that have been allowed to creep in, in the American church in particular. They’re awful, bad, at best lazy, at worst evil.
But the Mass is still the Mass. I don’t deny the validity of the TLM, I will defend the validity of the Mass of Paul VI. The problem is not that we attack the Mass of Trent, it’s that the Rad Trads attack the Mass of Paul VI. Look back through the threads. I believe they support that assertion.
 
No one on these forums defends the abuses that have been allowed to creep in, in the American church in particular
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But this isn’t true. There are quite a few people on these fora who defend the abuses and every other quirky innovation that is tried. There are also people who defend the actions of schismatics, heretics, atheists and wiccans. It’s a public forum and there are all kinds of people here.

This thread is not a good sampling of the sentiments of those with a more Traditionalist leaning. Just the title of the thread was like throwing raw meat to lions. This wasn’t a thread to invite discussion of various perceptions in the Church. A lot of people took the bait, though and the bashing began.
 
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kmktexas:
But this isn’t true. There are quite a few people on these fora who defend the abuses and every other quirky innovation that is tried. There are also people who defend the actions of schismatics, heretics, atheists and wiccans. It’s a public forum and there are all kinds of people here.

This thread is not a good sampling of the sentiments of those with a more Traditionalist leaning. Just the title of the thread was like throwing raw meat to lions. This wasn’t a thread to invite discussion of various perceptions in the Church. A lot of people took the bait, though and the bashing began.
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Right on. The title alone smacks of an agenda.
 
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kmktexas:
But this isn’t true. There are quite a few people on these fora who defend the abuses and every other quirky innovation that is tried. There are also people who defend the actions of schismatics, heretics, atheists and wiccans. It’s a public forum and there are all kinds of people here.

This thread is not a good sampling of the sentiments of those with a more Traditionalist leaning. Just the title of the thread was like throwing raw meat to lions. This wasn’t a thread to invite discussion of various perceptions in the Church. A lot of people took the bait, though and the bashing began.
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I’ve not seen a single defense of an outright abuse of the Mass of Paul VI! I’ve seen people who agreed there were abuses and told the witness to contact the bishop, but I’ve never heard anyone say,“Yeah, well, get over it: if the priest wants to spin around 3 times during the Prayer of Consecration, it’s OKAY!” Are you talking about the kneeling vs. standing gulag we get bogged down it? Most of the Catholics who post here are fairly conservative, we don’t get a lot of goddess or Catholics for Choice types here.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Yes, this is all I’ve ever believed about this issue. However, on this very thread (taking it as an example) Traditional Catholics have posted and Rad Trads have posted (see the post that links to Traditio.com, a site that denies that JPII is a valid pope, and states that no one should go to the Mass of Paul VI). When someone rightly points out that this is dissent, or that SSPX is schismatic, and their leaders excommunicated, I would suggest that Traditional Catholics not muddy the water by defending them, by not linking to sites that mock the Mass of Paul VI or question the validity of papal leadership. No one on these forums defends the abuses that have been allowed to creep in, in the American church in particular. They’re awful, bad, at best lazy, at worst evil.
But the Mass is still the Mass. I don’t deny the validity of the TLM, I will defend the validity of the Mass of Paul VI. The problem is not that we attack the Mass of Trent, it’s that the Rad Trads attack the Mass of Paul VI. Look back through the threads. I believe they support that assertion.
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I think you make valid points. I do not defend schismatic attitudes, nor do I defend legalistic attitudes that attempt to use the GIRM as a cudgel, and wedge, to attack faithful Catholics who are following the dictates of Rome.
 
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I think you make valid points. I do not defend schismatic attitudes, nor do I defend legalistic attitudes that attempt to use the GIRM as a cudgel, and wedge, to attack faithful Catholics who are following the dictates of Rome.
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I know. I thought GIRM was supposed to settle the dust.
 
JKirk,

The one that comes quickest to mind is the issue of lay homilists. There were quite a few people who were defending that practice.

There is the issue of the fractioning, which I agree can be stretched to pretend it’s still an open issue. There are a whole lot of people defending the abuse of bunches of lay people (EHMCs or teens) gathering around the altar either for the consecration or the Our Father.

In no way am I saying that these people were in the majority or even a significant minority. I was just making the point that we can’t assume that we are starting from the common point of everyone defending the Mass against abuses.
 
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JNB:
You know “Crusader”, you have been throwing bags of stones, and intentionally provokeing flamewars by your actions. At the very least, be correct. The SSPX may be schismatic, but their sacraments are valid, somtging that Protestants lack, so that puts the SSPX at a level no worse than Eastren orthdox.

Anyways “Crusader” I hope the mods shut you down again. The last thing that is needed is a flamewar.
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The Eastern & Oriental Orthodox are not in schism. The SSPX is at least in schism…
 
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kmktexas:
The one that comes quickest to mind is the issue of lay homilists. There were quite a few people who were defending that practice.

There is the issue of the fractioning, which I agree can be stretched to pretend it’s still an open issue. There are a whole lot of people defending the abuse of bunches of lay people (EHMCs or teens) gathering around the altar either for the consecration or the Our Father.

In no way am I saying that these people were in the majority or even a significant minority. I was just making the point that we can’t assume that we are starting from the common point of everyone defending the Mass against abuses.
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But KMK (I’m from Texas, too!), the point I was making is that no one is defending those abuses HERE. We’ve had one poster who liked the way Bishop Utener in Saginaw allowed lay homilists. She made, like, 3 posts, then got upset because everyone dumped on the idea and she bailed. We are a pretty conservative/othodox bunch (the two words are not mutually inclusive, witness SSPX) in these forums, if you could lay it out on a visual continuum.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
But KMK (I’m from Texas, too!), the point I was making is that no one is defending those abuses HERE. We’ve had one poster who liked the way Bishop Utener in Saginaw allowed lay homilists. She made, like, 3 posts, then got upset because everyone dumped on the idea and she bailed. We are a pretty conservative/othodox bunch (the two words are not mutually inclusive, witness SSPX) in these forums, if you could lay it out on a visual continuum.
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I thought you were from Vegas. 🙂

You are right that the ones who defend the abuses don’t seem to stick around long. 😃 I think there are a few left over in the Teen Life thread, though. We are a pretty conservative bunch - theologically and liturgically speaking, that is. 👍
 
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kmktexas:
I thought you were from Vegas. 🙂
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Originally from Texas, now in exile, with a directive to my family to bury my cold, dead body in the sacred soil of the Republic!
 
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