Ask a pentecostal.

[KingJohn]

I saw this so I excerpted it.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius” (1 Corinthians 1:14)? Why would he have said, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17)? Granted, in this passage Paul is arguing against the divisions that plagued the Corinthian church. However, how could Paul possibly say, “I am thankful that I did not baptize…” or “For Christ did not send me to baptize…” if baptism were necessary for salvation? If baptism is necessary for salvation, Paul would literally be saying, “I am thankful that you were not saved…” and “For Christ did not send me to save…” That would be an unbelievably ridiculous statement for Paul to make. Further, when Paul gives a detailed outline of what he considers the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-8), why does he neglect to mention baptism? If baptism is a requirement for salvation, how could any presentation of the gospel lack a mention of baptism?

Taken from: gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html

 

[Jon_S_1]

…You sir are becoming quite the critic.

I’ve said this once, I’l say it again, PLEASE read this time.

I believe that if you’re born again, you’re born again. However, you can slip back into sin and lose salvation if you do not REPENT.

So, no. I do not believe in once saved always saved.

Be a dear and read my posts next time. Ok? K.

Believe me I have been reading your posts. I’m simply looking for a concise explanation. You say if you do not repent then you lose salvation. Fine sounds good.

Please however tell me how you can say “What I meant is this: it is not a necessity in becoming savED.” (Emphasis mine)

You say you are saved, yet you do not know your future sins and or lack of repentance. I am sure you also don’t “confess your sins one to another” as is stated in James 5.

Can you see my confusion at least!

 

[KingJohn]

Believe me I have been reading your posts. I’m simply looking for a concise explanation. You say if you do not repent then you lose salvation. Fine sounds good.

Please however tell me how you can say “What I meant is this: it is not a necessity in becoming savED.” (Emphasis mine)

You say you are saved, yet you do not know your future sins and or lack of repentance. I am sure you also don’t “confess your sins one to another” as is stated in James 5.

Can you see my confusion at least!

Yes. And it’s !? not ! since your asking a question. Yes, we fall into sin, yet I believe we can maintain our salvation through repentence and confessing your sins to JESUS, which the Bible also says.

No, I don’t confess my sins to Priests or to humans. It’s all about Jesus my friend.

Yes, I can see your confusion. Let me explain.

The concept of confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture. First, the New Testament does not teach that there are to be priests in the New Covenant. Instead, the New Testament teaches that all believers are priests. First Peter 2:5-9 describes believers as a “holy priesthood” and a “royal priesthood.” Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 both describe believers as “a kingdom of priests.” In the Old Covenant, the faithful had to approach God through the priests.

The priests were mediators between the people and God. The priests offered sacrifices to God on behalf of the people. That is no longer necessary. Because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we can now approach God’s throne with boldness (Hebrews 4:16). The temple veil tearing in two at Jesus’ death was symbolic of the dividing wall between God and humanity being destroyed. We can approach God directly, ourselves, without the use of a human mediator. Why? Because Jesus Christ is our great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14-15; 10:21) and the only mediator between us and God (1 Timothy 2:5).

Now, is your confusion cleared up…?

 

[Jon_S_1]

I saw this so I excerpted it.

Taken from: gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html

Seriously? Please read the entire chapter…Especially that part where the people were baptizing in the name of men instead of God.

For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Corinthians 1:11-13 NASB)1 Corinthians 1:11, 12 NASB)

In that context it is clear. What a twist on scripture. Maybe you can explain away these verses:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Matthew 28:19

And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Matthew 3:11

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Galatians 3:27

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:3

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.
Acts 22:16

John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1:4

Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized
Acts 18:8

because [fn] they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. **Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God **for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1 Peter 3:20-21

having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Colossians 2:12

Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?
1 Corinthians 15:29

And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:4-5

one Lord, one faith, one baptism
Ephesians 4:5

Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?
Acts 10:47

and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:2

But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 8:12

And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mark 1:5

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.(I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
1 Corinthians 1:13-17

Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),
John 4:1-2

 

[ltwin]

This is fascinating to me. I always thought Pentecostals were more baptist/evangelical leaning…pure symbolism.

This does seem to be what most people take away from Pentecostalism. I think its a miscommunication. Pentecostals want people to know that they don’t believe in Transubstantiation or similar doctrines in a physical transformation. However, I don’t think they adequately describe the spiritual dynamic. Pentecostals generally focus on what we don’t believe the Lord’s Supper is rather than what we do believe.

Which Pentecostal denomination preached this?

The Weekly Evangel (now the Pentecostal Evangel) is the official publication of the of the Assemblies of God. The Church of God Evangel is a publication of the Church of God (Cleveland, TN). Word and Witness is a defunct publication connected with the early history of the Assemblies of God. So, these quotations are drawn from the two largest classical Pentecostal churches in the world.

 

[ltwin]

Why wouldn’t you be baptized? Wouldn’t that at least show a true love for Christ that may be lacking if you choose to disregard the teachings of Christ and the Apostles?

I wasn’t baptized until my first year of college, and I’d been going to church my whole life.

 

[KingJohn]

Seriously? Please read the entire chapter…Especially that part where the people were baptizing in the name of men instead of God.

For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Corinthians 1:11-13 NASB)1 Corinthians 1:11, 12 NASB)

In that context it is clear. What a twist on scripture. Maybe you can explain away these verses:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Matthew 28:19

And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Matthew 3:11

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Galatians 3:27

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:3

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.
Acts 22:16

John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1:4

Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized
Acts 18:8

because [fn] they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. **Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God **for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1 Peter 3:20-21

having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Colossians 2:12

Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?
1 Corinthians 15:29

And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:4-5

one Lord, one faith, one baptism
Ephesians 4:5

Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?
Acts 10:47

and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:2

But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 8:12

And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mark 1:5

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.(I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
1 Corinthians 1:13-17

Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),
John 4:1-2

I’m going to write a few paragraphs to litterily rip apart your argument, so stand by.

 

[ltwin]

Believe me I have been reading your posts. I’m simply looking for a concise explanation. You say if you do not repent then you lose salvation. Fine sounds good.

Please however tell me how you can say “What I meant is this: it is not a necessity in becoming savED.” (Emphasis mine)

You say you are saved, yet you do not know your future sins and or lack of repentance. I am sure you also don’t “confess your sins one to another” as is stated in James 5.

Can you see my confusion at least!

Jon S, I say that I am “saved”, yet I do believe in the possibility that I could fall away at some future point. There is no assumption that one is always saved.

 

[KingJohn]

I wasn’t baptized until my first year of college, and I’d been going to church my whole life.

He was talking to me…

Do you not acknowledge me?

 

[po18guy]

Appearently, there aren’t many pentecostals on this forum and theres’ been major misconceptions. So, ask me anything.

Well, Itwin does an excellent job by himself. But, backup is always a comfort.

OK, I’ll ask: why aren’t the two of you charismatic Catholics?

You will have all of the same manifestations of the Holy Spirit (possibly more), plus the Sacraments, and the sublime spiritual opportunity to spend time, either alone or together with others, in the physical presence of Greatness: Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Most Blessed Sacrament. Preternatural things occur there. I have felt the presence of the Spirit so strongly at adoration that my breath has been taken away. Miracles have occurred. The Word of Knowledge arrives. Purely outside of the natural realm, pentecost-type occurrences. It would blow you two away. All in exchange for an act of the human will.

And, all of this is apart from the miracle of the epiclesis (calling down) of the Holy Spirit at each and every mass; the miracle of bread and wine becoming, as they have for 2,000 years in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, the true presence - Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. True, hypostatic union emulating communion.

I don’t expect either of you to explore it, but please ponder it, as the spiritual joy to be experienced there is indescribable. As Fr. Benedict Groeschel says, “Once you are aware that He is there, you will be changed.”

 

[KingJohn]

Well, Itwin does an excellent job by himself. But, backup is always a comfort.

OK, I’ll ask: why aren’t the two of you charismatic Catholics?

You will have all of the same manifestations of the Holy Spirit (possibly more), plus the Sacraments, and the sublime spiritual opportunity to spend time, either alone or together with others, in the physical presence of Greatness: Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Most Blessed Sacrament. Preternatural things occur there. I have felt the presence of the Spirit so strongly at adoration that my breath has been taken away. Miracles have occurred. The Word of Knowledge arrives. Purely outside of the natural realm, pentecost-type occurrences. It would blow you two away. All in exchange for an act of the human will.

I don’t expect either of you to explore it, but please ponder it, as the spiritual joy to be experienced there is indescribable. As Fr. Benedict Groeschel says, “Once you are aware that He is there, you will be changed.”

What’s a charismatic Catholic?

If they believe the Church is the only way to Heaven, I have no interest in even pondering it.

 

[ltwin]

He was talking to me…

Do you not acknowledge me?

I was supporting you. I’m pretty sure (though it can be hard to remember sometimes) that I’ve discussed with Jon S my views on soteriology. I was just saying that I agreed that the “saved” lingo has nothing to do with OSAS.

Interesting thread . . .

 

[ltwin]

What’s a charismatic Catholic?

If they believe the Church is the only way to Heaven, I have no interest in even pondering it.

The charismatic movement is a lot like Pentecostalism. The difference is that charismatics are found in the Catholic and non-Pentecostal Protestant churches. They believe in the supernatural gifts but they are not wedded to the traditional Pentecostal doctrinal explanations.

 

[Jon_S_1]

).

Now, is your confusion cleared up…?

Oh no, much greater now.

Why do you reject Holy Scripture that says in John chapter 20:21-22

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Please tell me how the Apostles forgave sins never told to them?

Or how about James 5:14-16

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Do you do anything like this?

If not why not? It’s in the Bible to call on the elders to pray over you, to anoint with oil, to hear their sins and confess.

Yet you reject it and rely in your own comfort and knowledge.

 

[po18guy]

What’s a charismatic Catholic?

If they believe the Church is the only way to Heaven, I have no interest in even pondering it.

I think it would be error to close your mind to the possibility, however remote in your current thinking, that the Church which Jesus Christ founded for our salvation is not the normative method of salvation.

If you are dead set against any possibility of the Catholic Church being true, I must ask what on earth your purpose here is. We can Google Pentecostalism, just as you can Google Catholicism.

I hope and pray that your mind is not closed.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’m going to write a few paragraphs to litterily rip apart your argument, so stand by.

Oh please do

Especially that verse Acts 22:16. Why wait?

Also, I did not make much of an argument just quoted the Holy Bible. Rip away at the Bible I guess

 

[po18guy]

The charismatic movement is a lot like Pentecostalism. The difference is that charismatics are found in the Catholic and non-Pentecostal Protestant churches. They believe in the supernatural gifts but they are not wedded to the traditional Pentecostal doctrinal explanations.

Right. The focus is on the use of the charisms given to us by the Holy SPirit at our Baptism and Confirmation. Charismatic Catholics are 100% Catholics, but seek a deeper relationship with the Holy SPirit, and have a deisre to use those charisms for the building up of the Church.

Are you both Trinitarian Pentecostals, or Oneness, or split?

 

[Jon_S_1]

This does seem to be what most people take away from Pentecostalism. I think its a miscommunication. Pentecostals want people to know that they don’t believe in Transubstantiation or similar doctrines in a physical transformation. However, I don’t think they adequately describe the spiritual dynamic. Pentecostals generally focus on what we don’t believe the Lord’s Supper is rather than what we do believe.

The Weekly Evangel (now the Pentecostal Evangel) is the official publication of the of the Assemblies of God. The Church of God Evangel is a publication of the Church of God (Cleveland, TN). Word and Witness is a defunct publication connected with the early history of the Assemblies of God. So, these quotations are drawn from the two largest classical Pentecostal churches in the world.

Knowing there are many ASSEMBLY OF GOD members who have become Catholic, it makes sense that our teachings are more in line I guess. Thanks for the info.

I now get to watch KingJohn continue to implode.

 

[KingJohn]

I think it would be error to close your mind to the possibility, however remote in your current thinking, that the Church which Jesus Christ founded for our salvation is not the normative method of salvation.

If you are dead set against any possibility of the Catholic Church being true, I must ask what on earth your purpose here is. We can Google Pentecostalism, just as you can Google Catholicism.

I hope and pray that your mind is not closed.

I respect Catholic beliefs. However, I do not accept the view that outside of the Church people are condemed.

I went to my local Catholic church, the lady herself said that if you don’t join the Church you don’t go to hell. She was very nice and made me consider Catholicism. But, when I see almost everyone on this site say “If you do not join the Church you condem yourself” it just makes me…Ugh.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon S, I say that I am “saved”, yet I do believe in the possibility that I could fall away at some future point. There is no assumption that one is always saved.

I get you believe that…I am not so sure King John does and I am certain that baptists/evangelicals tend to not agree.

I find it dangerous. I’ve seen too many people live in habitual sin saying those words.

I really appreciate the idea of hoping in Christ for salvation.