P
- Status
D
daler
Guest
Code:
Hence, to come into the presence of a Manifestation of God is not proof for everyone, and I believe that this has to do with the purity of the heart which allows "those who have eyes to see" recognize Him, for "eyes they have, but see not".Considering that neither Jesus or Baha’u’llah are here in physical form, attaining Their presence, which is the same as attaining the presence of God, is not possible to us. Therefore, we must rely upon other proofs, such as Their Words. Or, we must look into prophecies until such time as our mind is convinced. Then, perhaps, Their Words may penetrate our hearts.
D
daler
Guest
D
daler
Guest
Well, my friend Dr Klebel (a former Priest) became a fulfilled Catholic, that is, a Baha’i …
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Arthra you do not believe Jesus to be God, that is, jesus should not be given the same honour as you would give whatever you call your God. Right? There is no beseechment of Jesus as if he were God in the bahai faith right? See all this does, all it does to say “Well Jesus is God, but not God” is to muddy the water and make the matter unclear. It is a blatant attempt to identify with Christians when you would just as soon as say to a Muslim “God forbid we worship or approach Mirza Hussain as if he were God.” Its deceptive and bahai continue to do it.
A
arthra
Guest
The “last days” are nonetheless understood as the last days of an age… by us…not the end of the world…
“In like manner, strive thou to comprehend from these lucid, these powerful, conclusive, and unequivocal statements the meaning of the “cleaving of the heaven” – one of the signs that must needs herald the coming of the last Hour, the Day of Resurrection. As He hath said: “When the heaven shall be cloven asunder.” By “heaven” is meant the heaven of divine Revelation, which is elevated with every Manifestation, and rent asunder with every subsequent one.”
~ Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 44
P
PRmerger
Guest
Well, I suppose so.
The only emotion that I had, however, in invoking that response above was humor.
P
PRmerger
Guest
On this we are agreed.
Thus, it appears that there is no real criteria that can be established to discern whether a person is a Manifestation of God or not.
It’s like telling someone: I can give you a tutorial on how to choose good avocados–the way you choose is, “You just either know it’s a good one or it’s not.”
Not very helpful, right?
P
PRmerger
Guest
Perhaps.Well, my friend Dr Klebel (a former Priest) became a fulfilled Catholic, that is, a Baha’i …
Although as a Catholic we have the most sublime union with God that is humanly possible, the One Flesh Union.
Your friend, Dr. Klebel, is now not able to enjoy that.
How fulfilled could that be?
It would be like a husband and wife, who have shared the marital bed for 30 years, saying they are “more fulfilled” as a couple because they now both live in different monasteries.
A
arthra
Guest
Reminds me Abelard and Eloise…but then we’re not monastics…Perhaps.
Although as a Catholic we have the most sublime union with God that is humanly possible, the One Flesh Union.
Your friend, Dr. Klebel, is now not able to enjoy that.
How fulfilled could that be?
It would be like a husband and wife, who have shared the marital bed for 30 years, saying they are “more fulfilled” as a couple because they now both live in different monasteries.
“They never met again, yet through their famous letters, their love endures.”
A
arthra
Guest
Criteria in the sense of proofs and signs have been around in scriptures awhile…and some groups as yuo probably are aware have tested and weighed evidence for themselves… I’ll present here a few possibilities…
And among His signs is the appearance of omens and joyous prophecies, of hints and clues, the spreading of many and various tidings, and the anticipations of the righteous, they who have now attained their goal.
And among His signs are His splendours, rising above the horizon of oneness, His lights streaming out from the dayspring of might, and the announcement of the Most Great Glad-Tidings by His Herald, the One, the Incomparable. Verily in this is a brilliant proof for the company of those who know.
Among His signs is His being manifest, being seen by all, standing as His own proof, and His presence among witnesses in every region, among peoples who fell upon Him even as wolves, and compassed Him about from every side.
Among His signs is His withstanding powerful nations and all-conquering states, and a host of enemies thirsting for His blood, intent at every moment upon His ruin, wheresoever He might be. Verily this is a matter deserving the scrutiny of those who ponder the signs and tokens of God.
Another of His signs is the marvel of His discourse, the eloquence of His utterance, the rapidity with which His Writings were revealed, His words of wisdom, His verses, His epistles, His communes, His unfolding of the Qur’án, both the abstruse verses thereof and the clear. By thy very life! This thing is plain as day to whoever will regard it with the eye of justice.
Again among His signs is the dawning sun of His knowledge, and the rising moon of His arts and skills, and His demonstrating perfection in all His ways, as testified by the learned and accomplished of many nations.
And again among His signs is the fact that His beauty stayed inviolate, and His human temple was protected as He revealed His splendours, despite the massed attacks of 16 all His foes, who came against Him in their thousands with their darting arrows, spears and swords. Herein is verily a wonder and a warning to any fair judge.
And among His signs is His long-suffering, His tribulations and His woes, His agony in His chains and fetters, and His calling out at every moment: ‘Come unto Me, come unto Me, ye righteous! Come unto Me, come unto Me, ye lovers of the good! Come unto Me, come unto Me, ye dawning points of light!’ Verily the gates of mystery are opened wide – but still do the wicked disport themselves with their vain cavillings![1]
[1 Qur’án 6:91; 52:12]
Yet another of His signs is the promulgation of His Book, His decisive Holy Text wherein He reproved the kings, and His dire warning to that one [1] whose mighty rule was felt around the world – and whose great throne then toppled down in a matter of brief days – this being a fact clearly established and widely known.
[1 Napoleon III]
Code:
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 14)*Therefore the purposes and accomplishments of the divine messengers have been one and the same. *
*They were the source of advancement to the body-politic and the cause of the honor and divine civilization of humanity the foundation of which is one and the same in every dispensation. *
It is evident then that the proofs of the validity and inspiration of a prophet of God are
- the deeds of beneficent accomplishment and greatness emanating from Him. *
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 275)
A
arthra
Guest
Part Two:
Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa’i gives at least five criteria for the prophet.
He must be of pure lineage (in the sense that his ancestors on both sides led moral lives),
blameless,
absolutely truthful,
the most knowledgeable and continent of the people of his time,
and protected (ma’sum) from all sins, major and minor, before and after receiving his mission.[37]
Al-Ahsa’i follows earlier Shi’i thinkers in distinguishing between the teaching prophet (nubuwwat at-ta’rif) and legislating prophet (nubwwat at-tashri’).[38] One early Shi’i’ writer defined a prophet as a man who brings a message from God without the mediation of any human being.[39] Most Shi’i thinkers also believed that the ability to perform miracles was one of the requirements of prophethood. While Bahá’í theology, as expounded by Bahá’u’lláh’s son 'Abdu’l-Bahá, accepts that miracles can occur, these are not held to constitute decisive proof for the truth of a prophet’s mission.[40]
and from the Book of Second Esdras 9
He answered me then, and said, Measure thou the time
diligently in itself: and when thou seest part of the signs
past, which I have told thee before,
2
Then shalt thou understand, that it is the very same time,
wherein the Highest will begin to visit the world which he made.
3
Therefore when there shall be seen earthquakes and uproars of
the people in the world:
4
Then shalt thou well understand, that the most High spake of
those things from the days that were before thee, even from the
beginning.
5
For like as all that is made in the world hath a beginning
and an end, and the end is manifest:
6
Even so the times also of the Highest have plain beginnings
in wonder and powerful works, and endings in effects and signs.
7
And every one that shall be saved, and shall be able to
escape by his works, and by faith, whereby ye have believed,
8
Shall be preserved from the said perils, and shall see my
salvation in my land, and within my borders: for I have
sanctified them for me from the beginning.
9
Then shall they be in pitiful case, which now have abused my
ways: and they that have cast them away despitefully shall dwell
in torments.
10
For such as in their life have received benefits, and have
not known me;
11
And they that have loathed my law, while they had yet liberty,
and, when as yet place of repentance was open unto them,
understood not, but despised it;
…
Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa’i gives at least five criteria for the prophet.
He must be of pure lineage (in the sense that his ancestors on both sides led moral lives),
blameless,
absolutely truthful,
the most knowledgeable and continent of the people of his time,
and protected (ma’sum) from all sins, major and minor, before and after receiving his mission.[37]
Al-Ahsa’i follows earlier Shi’i thinkers in distinguishing between the teaching prophet (nubuwwat at-ta’rif) and legislating prophet (nubwwat at-tashri’).[38] One early Shi’i’ writer defined a prophet as a man who brings a message from God without the mediation of any human being.[39] Most Shi’i thinkers also believed that the ability to perform miracles was one of the requirements of prophethood. While Bahá’í theology, as expounded by Bahá’u’lláh’s son 'Abdu’l-Bahá, accepts that miracles can occur, these are not held to constitute decisive proof for the truth of a prophet’s mission.[40]
and from the Book of Second Esdras 9
He answered me then, and said, Measure thou the time
diligently in itself: and when thou seest part of the signs
past, which I have told thee before,
2
Then shalt thou understand, that it is the very same time,
wherein the Highest will begin to visit the world which he made.
3
Therefore when there shall be seen earthquakes and uproars of
the people in the world:
4
Then shalt thou well understand, that the most High spake of
those things from the days that were before thee, even from the
beginning.
5
For like as all that is made in the world hath a beginning
and an end, and the end is manifest:
6
Even so the times also of the Highest have plain beginnings
in wonder and powerful works, and endings in effects and signs.
7
And every one that shall be saved, and shall be able to
escape by his works, and by faith, whereby ye have believed,
8
Shall be preserved from the said perils, and shall see my
salvation in my land, and within my borders: for I have
sanctified them for me from the beginning.
9
Then shall they be in pitiful case, which now have abused my
ways: and they that have cast them away despitefully shall dwell
in torments.
10
For such as in their life have received benefits, and have
not known me;
11
And they that have loathed my law, while they had yet liberty,
and, when as yet place of repentance was open unto them,
understood not, but despised it;
…
P
PRmerger
Guest
I think you do not understand analogies, perhaps?
If I make the analogy: Christmas tree : ornament :: earlobe : earring, you shouldn’t say, “But a Christmas tree is not an earlobe.”
Would that they had been able to enjoy the marital embrace! Just think how that would have elevated their relationship!
P
PRmerger
Guest
That, frankly, is an absurd criterion for a prophet.
I would never dismiss someone’s possibilities for being a prophet because his parents were sinners.
True.
Yes.
Indeed.
From all sins? Not sure how one detects whether someone is free from sinful thoughts? How can this be used as a criterion?
D
daler
Guest
On this we are agreed.
Thus, it appears that there is no real criteria that can be established to discern whether a person is a Manifestation of God or not.
It’s like telling someone: I can give you a tutorial on how to choose good avocados–the way you choose is, “You just either know it’s a good one or it’s not.”
Not very helpful, right?
"Ye shall know them by their “thump” "PR Do you know how to “thump” watermelons? Ya gotta thump 'em just so… and listen for the sound of the “thump”, don’t cha know…
That’ll tell ya whether you’ve got a good one er a bad one, ya see… ;-x
They have a kinda smell about 'em, too, eh?
"In My Name, which standeth supreme above all names
Praise and glory beseem the Lord of Names and the Creator of the heavens, He, the waves of Whose ocean of Revelation surge before the eyes of the peoples of the world. The Day-Star of His Cause shineth through every veil and His Word of affirmation standeth beyond the reach of negation. Neither the ascendancy of the oppressor nor the tyranny of the wicked hath been able to thwart His Purpose. How glorified is His sovereignty, how exalted His dominion!
Great God! Although His signs have encompassed the world and His proofs and testimonies are shining forth and manifest as the light, yet the ignorant appear heedless, nay rather, rebellious. Would that they had been content with opposition. But at all times they are plotting to cut down the sacred Lote-Tree. Since the dawn of this Revelation the embodiments of selfishness have, by resorting to cruelty and oppression, striven to extinguish the Light of divine manifestation. But God, having stayed their hands, revealed this Light through His sovereign authority and protected it through the power of His might until earth and heaven were illumined by its radiance and brightness. Praise be unto Him under all conditions."
Baha’u’llah
D
daler
Guest
PR This prophecy given by Ahsai was “specific” to the coming of the Qa’im who was to appear “in the year '60”, or 1260 AH
It has some history relevant to the Muhammadan Faith, but also intersects with both Christian and Jewish prophecy where the year is given, for the year 1260 AH is 1844 AD.
That the Promised One of these three religions was to appear at the end of the 2300 days (years) foretold by Daniel the Prophet is also proven by the 70 weeks (of years) prophecy foretelling when Messiah shall be “cut off”, or crucified.
The beginning of the prophecy was with the decree for the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem given by Artaxerxes in 457 BC. 70 weeks (of years) later, or 490 years was 34 AD. 490 minus 457 = 33, plus 1 (for there was no year zero) equals 34 AD, when the our Lord was crucified.
From this the starting point is proven as the 70 weeks was fulfilled accurately according to the prophecy which Christ Himself refers to regarding the second coming: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Likewise 2300 minus 457 = 1843, but again we must add 1 (for there was no year zero) which equals 1844 AD, which is also the year 1260 AH. The year 1260 is mentioned in both Daniel and Revelation several times in several different ways.
“The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. (Revelation 12:6)”
"And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given to him to continue forty and two months. (Revelation 13:5) 42 X 30 = 1260
"For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. (Revelation 11:9) 3 1/2 X 360 = 1260
Code:
Hundreds, probably thousands by now, of scholars have agreed upon the meaning of these numbers, particularly among the Adventist and Millerite Movements since the middle 1800s. These have not, however, understood the significance of the intersection of 1844 AD and 1260 AH, which implies the Biblical relationship to Islam in the fulfillment of these prophecies, and that the Beast is a reference to the Ummayyads who destroyed the foundation of Islam from date of the death of Muhammad.I could go on and on and on listing these, but am not even sure if you are reading this far or have further interest. Are you? and Do you?
P
PRmerger
Guest
It appears that you are changing the criterion a bit now.PR Do you know how to “thump” watermelons? Ya gotta thump 'em just so… and listen for the sound of the “thump”, don’t cha know…
That’ll tell ya whether you’ve got a good one er a bad one, ya see… ;-x
They have a kinda smell about 'em, too, eh?
The way it was first presented by artha it sounded like: you will know it when you see it. Some will be able to just know it’s a good piece of fruit. Some will see a good piece of fruit and just pass it by.
Now you’re saying: you will know a good piece of fruit by testing it.
Which one is the correct criterion that you both are proposing?
Do you have to test the fruit?
Or will some people just know by looking at the fruit, while others will pass it by, not knowing that the fruit is truly good?
S
Servant19
Guest
PR it all depends on the capacities of the tester.
Give a water melon to a grower that has lived and adored water melons for all their lives, then they will know a good water melon the moment they see it.
Give a watermelon to me, on the other hand, and I can spend a month with 2 watermelons and I’ll still open the tasteless one
The value of spirituality is important in recognition. I am surprised that you placed so much emphasis on the value of the lovers embrace. For Baha’is spiritual love, spiritual embrace, TRUMPS physical love, physical embrace by a country mile!
Spirituality trumps the physical by a country mile. God is spirit.
So for those that have sufficient detachment from physical things and have turned their hearts towards the grace of the Father, NOT defiled by worldly, physical, attachments will easily recognize the Prophet/Manifestation of God.
Why did the apostles recognize Jesus yet the Pharisees did not?
What were some of the reasons for this?
Give a water melon to a grower that has lived and adored water melons for all their lives, then they will know a good water melon the moment they see it.
Give a watermelon to me, on the other hand, and I can spend a month with 2 watermelons and I’ll still open the tasteless one
The value of spirituality is important in recognition. I am surprised that you placed so much emphasis on the value of the lovers embrace. For Baha’is spiritual love, spiritual embrace, TRUMPS physical love, physical embrace by a country mile!
Spirituality trumps the physical by a country mile. God is spirit.
So for those that have sufficient detachment from physical things and have turned their hearts towards the grace of the Father, NOT defiled by worldly, physical, attachments will easily recognize the Prophet/Manifestation of God.
Why did the apostles recognize Jesus yet the Pharisees did not?
What were some of the reasons for this?
P
PRmerger
Guest
PR it all depends on the capacities of the tester.
Give a water melon to a grower that has lived and adored water melons for all their lives, then they will know a good water melon the moment they see it.
Give a watermelon to me, on the other hand, and I can spend a month with 2 watermelons and I’ll still open the tasteless one
Well, it’s the marital embrace that we are talking about. Which is, of course, a euphemism for the marital act. Which is, of course, a euphemism for…
And I don’t know about you, but anyone who has truly experienced a sublime marital embrace, would never deny or dismiss its supreme value.
I would only have to assume that you’ve never experienced what I am talking about? What Pope JPII discussed in his Theology of the Body.
This, is, sadly, an old heresy of gnosticism which you have been duped into believing.
- Status