Bible

[Malachi4U]

To be factual, all the books of the Bible were added and put there by Catholics. So to be honest, the Catholics did add the deutero’s to Sacred Scripture, but then they also added all the other books too.

The first book added to Scripture was first and the last book had to be last. So the Deutero’s would have been deutero’s wheteher the Bible had 20 books or 400 books.

The question you need to ask is why the “re”-formed theologians deleted books from Scripture? The deutero’s were in Scripture for 1,000 years before martin and his minions, etc. began abridging Scripture and adding or deleting books and words to every whim and fancy. Nowhwere did Romans ever say we were saved by ‘Faith alone’ untill martin added the word alone.

So, why and when did protestants delete books from Sacred Scripture and change words or delete and add them? Why have Catholics remaind loyal to the Faith as handed down to them? Why has the Catholic Church preserved for us the Scripture we enjoy today? Why are Catholics loyal to the Faith of their forefathers? Etc…

Is the cannon of Scripture closed? Can King James or President Clinton or Furher Hitler or President Bush write a Bible whenever they feel like it and force it upon us? Uhm??? Food for thought?

 

[Gene_C]

Yaqubos,

What do you mean by “conversion from Christianism to Christianism”? What exactly is “Christianism”?

So the Word of God told you that, 1) divine revelation has ended and 2) that Montanism is a heresy. Please tell me where in the Word of God you were told these things.

You say that the Word of God teaches you. Please explain exactly how this happens.

Gene C.

 

[mayra_hart]

If “Christianity is a religion built around a Book-the Bible,” what was the religion of the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians and Thessalonians “built around,” to whom St. Paul addressed his Epistles which were not part of a Bible until three centuries after they were written? Are you not aware of the fact, Mr. Minister, that eleven of the Apostles had gone to their eternal reward 35 and more years before St. John wrote the last Book that is in the Bible? That millions of persons were brought to Christ, many of them at the cost of their lives; that the Roman Empire was Christianized before there was a Christian Bible? Christianity came to humanity from Christ through His Church; the Church Christ commanded to be heard; the Church that began to function in the first, and not the 16th, 17th, 13th, 19th century, when manmade churches came into existence as a protest against that Church, the Catholic Church.**Christianity is a religion built around a Book-the Bible." **If this be so, pray tell us Mr. Protestant , from whence came first century Christianity assuming that there was such a thing? Surely it could not have come from a Christian Bible, as no Book of that nature existed during the days when St. Peter brought 3,000 Jews to Christ

 

[mayra_hart]

**Lack of A.B.C. historic knowledge **must be the cause of failure to know that the Church came first, and then came the Bible as the product of the Church. History records the fact that there was no agreement in Christendom as to which religious writings used in the churches were inspired, until the selection was made by the Catholic Church bishops in the Council of Laodicea (367 A.D.), which writings were finally adopted as the Canon of Sacred Scripture in the Catholic Church of Carthage (397 A.D.), after it was confirmed by the pope. That was 1347 years before the Methodist sect came into existence. The Catholic Church made the Bible: It was the Catholic Church that named the inspired writings The **Bible: **And it is only by the infallible declaration of the Catholic Church that man has any surety whatsoever for believing that the writings in the Bible are inspired writings; hence that the Bible is the Word of God. **Christianity is a religion built around the Church Christ established. The Bible evidences the fact that Church is the Catholic Church **

 

[Church_Militant]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

NO! Of course not! Christian tradition doesn’t contradict the Scripture, because it is based on the Word of God, and it is always in accordance with the written Word of God.

But there are many human traditions ( example: many traditions of the Roman Church ) that contradict the Scripture. I don’t need to talk about all of them here, because I am talking about them in the topics related to each of them.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

You split a hair there…to support your Sola Scriptura belief. The fact is that scripture is better interpretted by the traditions that came down to us by the apostles. As for that CRACK about our so-called “human traditions”…c’mon…name them here & now…they can ALL be substantiated IF we are given a chance…but please…DON’T sit there and make allegations & not give us the courtesy of a reasonable chance to answer them.

Have you even read the tracts & articles on this site’s main page? I suspect that most of your problems would be clearly answered there. It seems to me that all you are doing is “sniping” at our Catholic faith as opposed to attempting to actually dialog w/us and get good answers. If one of us did that on any of the non-Catholic sites we would readily be “cooled” or banned.
I spent more of my life as a Protestant than as a Catholic, so I already know what you believe…I have checked it against what the early church.(The REAL NT church, if you will) really taught & believed & it is nothing at all like Protestantism. I think that John Cardinal Newman said it best: “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”.
I’m home… I love it…& all the Prots on this planet have no honest clue what they are missing. Check it out for yourself…the doors open…and the light is still on.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Gene C.:

Yaqubos,

So the Word of God told you that, 1) divine revelation has ended and 2) that Montanism is a heresy. Please tell me where in the Word of God you were told these things.

You say that the Word of God teaches you. Please explain exactly how this happens.

Gene C.

Psalm45:9, do you see how there are yet people who will make us return to that basic question: what is the Word of God? What is the Revelation?

Dear Gene, when we talk about the Revelation, people usually think in terms of words and letters written in a book. Although those letters and words in the Scripture are in fact what God wants to tell us as Revelation, but the main thing is that Revelation that we could not know unless God has revealed it.

Those of the Roman Church always talk to me as if I am a protestant ( in the way THEY understand the word “protestant” ). So they use tactics used with what they suppose to be protestants… They suppose that when I talk about the Word of God, I am just talking about letters. Maybe they forget that “the word of God is living and active” ( Hebrews 4:12 ).Thus they prove to be unable to talk to a first century Christian… The sum of their human philosophies in theology has blinded their eyes so that they may not see the simple truth of the Word of God. “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” ( Colossians 2:8 )

And I tried to explain this by asking some important questions about the Word of God. But they didn’t understand me in this also, so they accused me of not having answers… Yes, I don’t have answers out of this Word of God. When God talks, we can just listen and obey. We can’t add anything.

Whatever… I’ll suppose you believe that the Scripture is the written Word of God ( and I suppose that you understand what this actually means ) So I answer here FROM THE SCRIPTURE your question about the Revelation.

( In the next reply, if the Lord permits )

In Love,

Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Continuing by His Grace.

Gene, this Revelation of faith was ONCE FOR ALL handed down to the saints who were sanctified by Jesus Christ. The Scripture says it clearly:

“I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.” ( Jude 3 )

So no one can add to that Revelation. And more: no one can teach anything other than this faith which was ONCE FOR ALL handed down to the saints. For the Word says:

"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" ( Galatians 1:8-9 )

Does Montanism enter in this category of “any man” who are preaching to us something contrary to what we have ONCE FOR ALL received? Are they to be accursed as heresy? Well, Montanism teaches that the Revelation has not ended. Montanism says that the Holy Spirit is still revealing things just as He was revealing to those who were writing down the Revelation!!! So Montanism actually is in the category of “any man” who is preaching to us a gospel contrary to what we have ONCE FOR ALL received!

The Scripture says:

"Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar." ( Proverbs 30:5-6 )

All those who add to this ONCE FOR ALL revealed WORD OF GOD will be proved LIAR ( HERESY ).

In Love,

Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
mayra hart:

If “Christianity is a religion built around a Book-the Bible,” what was the religion of the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians and Thessalonians “built around,” to whom St. Paul addressed his Epistles which were not part of a Bible until three centuries after they were written?

Around the Word of God. Do you know what’s this Word of God?

**Christianity is a religion built around a Book-the Bible." **If this be so, pray tell us Mr. Protestant , from whence came first century Christianity assuming that there was such a thing? Surely it could not have come from a Christian Bible, as no Book of that nature existed during the days when St. Peter brought 3,000 Jews to Christ

Why do you just think in terms of BOOK?

And why can’t you see that I am not protestant?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!

YAQUBOS:

What is the Revelation?

Revelation:

1. 
   *]
   1. 
      *]The act of revealing or disclosing.
      *]Something revealed, especially a dramatic disclosure of something not previously known or realized.
      
      ]Theology.* A manifestation of divine will or truth. **
      ]Revelation Abbr. *Rev. or Rv. Bible. See table at Bible.
      
      http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Revelation
      
      What does the Bible say? “The household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15)
      
      
      YAQUBOS:
      

      Dear Gene, when we talk about the Revelation, people usually think in terms of words and letters written in a book. Although those letters and words in the Scripture are in fact what God wants to tell us as Revelation, but the main thing is that Revelation that we could not know unless God has revealed it.

      Agreed! I read the writings of the Church Fathers, who were taught by the apostles, and then I understand what the Revelation is!

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Those of the Roman Church always talk to me as if I am a protestant ( in the way THEY understand the word “protestant” ). So they use tactics used with what they suppose to be protestants… They suppose that when I talk about the Word of God, I am just talking about letters. Maybe they forget that

“the word of God is living and active” ( Hebrews 4:12 ).Thus they prove to be unable to talk to a first century Christian…

We still have the writings of the Church Fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries. This shows the history of the EarlyChurch and what the Apostles taught them.

YAQUBOS:

The sum of their human philosophies in theology has blinded their eyes so that they may not see the simple truth of the Word of God.

“See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” ( Colossians 2:8 )

That’s where you’re wrong; there are no human philosophies in the Church. All doctrines come from Apostolic Tradition, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit; that leads us to all truth. Try all you want, nothing the church teaches contradicts Scripture, Sola Scriptura contradicts scripture.

YAQUBOS:

And I tried to explain this by asking some important questions about the Word of God. But they didn’t understand me in this also, so they accused me of not having answers… Yes, I don’t have answers out of this Word of God. When God talks, we can just listen and obey. We can’t add anything.

We are not adding anything, for God’s word is beyond scripture. However, nothing the church teaches contradicts scripture.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!

YAQUBOS:

Gene, this Revelation of faith was ONCE FOR ALL

handed down to the saints who were sanctified by Jesus Christ. The Scripture says it clearly:

“I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.” ( Jude 3 )

So no one can add to that Revelation. And more: no one can teach anything other than this faith which was ONCE FOR ALL handed down to the saints. For the Word says:

"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" ( Galatians 1:8-9 )

Agreed! The church is still preaching the same Gospel that the Apostles did.

YAQUBOS:

Does Montanism enter in this category of “any man” who are preaching to us something contrary to what we have ONCE FOR ALL received? Are they to be accursed as heresy? Well, Montanism teaches that the Revelation has not ended. Montanism says that the Holy Spirit is still revealing things just as He was revealing to those who were writing down the Revelation!!! So Montanism actually is in the category of “any man” who is preaching to us a gospel contrary to what we have ONCE FOR ALL received!

The Scripture says:

"Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar." ( Proverbs 30:5-6 )

All those who add to this ONCE FOR ALL revealed WORD OF GOD will be proved LIAR ( HERESY ).

At the time of Christ, the canon was still not determined; The Church determined what the Written Word of God is. However there is still the oral word of God, the Traditions of the Apostles, that was passed onto the Church Fathers. God’s word is not just the Bible. Now you have to provide a passage that states that divine revelation has ended. Proverbs does not state this, it only states that we cannot add to God’s word. The first Christians had no Bible.

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Around the Word of God. Do you know what’s this Word of God?

The word of God is the manifestation of God’s truth. There was no New Testament when the Apostles began their ministry. The Traditions of the Apostles is also the word of God, and this word has been passed onto the Bishops.

Why do you just think in terms of BOOK?

Because the early Christians did not have a Bible.

YAQUBOS:

And why can’t you see that I am not protestant?

Protestant::

1. 
   *]**A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers. **
   *]A member of a Western Christian church adhering to the theologies of Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli.
   *]One of the German princes and cities that supported the doctrines of Luther and protested against the decision of the second Diet of Speyer (1529) to enforce the Edict of Worms (1521) and deny toleration to Lutherans.
   *]protestant (also pr -t s t nt) One who makes a declaration or avowal.
   
   
   PROTESTANT Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Revelation:

1. 1. 
      *]The act of revealing or disclosing.
      *]Something revealed, especially a dramatic disclosure of something not previously known or realized.
      
      ]Theology.* A manifestation of divine will or truth. **
      ]Revelation Abbr. *Rev. or Rv. Bible. See table at Bible.
      
      http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Revelation

1. 1. 
      Going to human authorities ALWAYS…
      Psalm45:9:
      

      What

      does the Bible say? “The household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15)
      
      NO. The Word of God doesn’t say this. We read:
      
      “I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.” ( 1 Timothy 3:15 )
      
      Why is he writing the Word of God?
      
      The real Church of Christ is the support of what? Human teachings or God’s Word that is TRUTH?
      
      The Lord said in His prayer:
      
      “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.” ( John 17:17 )
      Psalm45:9:
      

      Agreed! I read the writings of the Church Fathers, who were taught by the apostles, and then I understand what the Revelation is!

      As those fathers were not writing the Revelation, so they may have done mistakes. I read the writings of God through the inspired writers, and then I understand what the Revelation is and what the wrong teachings of the fathers’ traditions were.
      
      In Love,
      Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Sola Scriptura contradicts scripture.

Yes, Sola Scriptura AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT, contradicts Scripture.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

At the time of Christ, the canon was still not determined; The Church determined what the Written Word of God is.

What authority does Jesus have? Did He have authority to determine what is Scripture?
Psalm45:9:

The first Christians had no Bible.

Really?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Protestant::

1. 
   *]**A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers. **
   *]A member of a Western Christian church adhering to the theologies of Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli.
   *]One of the German princes and cities that supported the doctrines of Luther and protested against the decision of the second Diet of Speyer (1529) to enforce the Edict of Worms (1521) and deny toleration to Lutherans.
   *]protestant (also pr -t s t nt) One who makes a declaration or avowal.
   
   dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Protestant

1. 
   Going to HUMAN dictionary again and again…
   
   Dear friend:
   1. **A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers. **
   I am not a member of a WESTERN Church.
   My faith and practice is founded on the Word of God, and this is NOT a new principle that the Reformation has found out. Many real Chritians were living according to this divine truth long before the Reformation, since the days of Jesus Christ.
   
   Don’t you believe that all Christians are priests and kings?
   1. A member of a Western Christian church adhering to the theologies of Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli.
   I am not a member of a WESTERN Church. I don’t adhere to any human theology, but to Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior.
   1. One of the German princes and cities that supported the doctrines of Luther and protested against the decision of the second Diet of Speyer (1529) to enforce the Edict of Worms (1521) and deny toleration to Lutherans.
   I am not a German prince nor a German city.
   1. protestant (also pr -t s t nt) One who makes a declaration or avowal.
   Is this what you think I am???..
   
   Many wrong things were said about true Christians all along history, so…
   
   In Love,
   Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!

YAQUBOS:

Going to human authorities ALWAYS…

LOL! You asked me what Revelation was, I looked it up. Take it or leave it. St. Paul quoted Greek Poetry a few times, to help get a point across.

YAQUBOS:

NO. The Word of God doesn’t say this. We read:

“I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.” ( 1 Timothy 3:15 )

What else does St. Paul Timothy?

“But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it.” (2 Timothy 3:14)

He then speaks of scripture, which only can refer to the Old Testament, since the New Testament did not exist yet. He does say scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and for training in righteousness, but he does not say that it is all that we need.

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thesolonians 2:15)

St. Paul believes that the Oral Word of God is just as good as the Written Word of God.

“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” (2 Peter 20-21)

“You should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles.” (2 Peter 3:2)

“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which **the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of **God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.” (Acts 20:28)

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Why is he writing the Word of God?

First, the only way we know that we know that what I am quoting is scripture, is because the Church Fathers have determined that. Second, when St. Paul wrote his Epistle to St. Timothy, St. Luke’s Gospel had not been written yet, which throws out that crutch. Third, there are at least Two Epistles of St. Paul that are not in the New Testament, why? Because the Church Fathers determined what is scripture and what is not.

YAQUBOS:

The real

Church of Christ is the support of what? Human teachings or God’s Word that is TRUTH?

They are not human teachings, these are the Teachings of the Holy Spirit.

The Lord said in His prayer:

“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.” ( John 17:17 )

And Saint Paul said the Church is the pillar of Truth, truth rests in the teachings of the Church, just like Christ said it would.

YAQUBOS:

As those fathers were not writing the Revelation, so they may have done mistakes. I read the writings of God through the inspired writers, and then I understand what the Revelation is and what the wrong teachings of the fathers’ traditions were.

However, it is only through the Church Fathers that we know what Revelation is. Of course the Fathers individually taught some things differently. But doctrines can only be declared by an approval of the majority. The Majority had the same interpretation of John 6 and so, that is the interpretation, as preached by the Apostles.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!

YAQUBOS:
Yes, Sola Scriptura AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT, contradicts Scripture.

It does not say anywhere in the Bible, that the Bible is the Sole Source of Revelation. The Bible does even say what the Bible is.

YAQUBOS:
What authority does Jesus have? Did He have authority to determine what is Scripture?

Jesus saw Scripture in the same light that St. Paul did, good for the Faith and a source of Revelation, but not the only source.

What does Christ say?

‘Then he said to them, “These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.”’ (Luke 24:44)

This is the closet “list” of scripture you will find within scripture.
Jesus saw the Torah as scripture. He saw the Prophets as scripture, but wait, The Book of Daniel is considered a writing by the Jews, not a prophet. Jesus saw Psalms as scripture, but he did not say which ones. He makes no claim about the authenticity of what the European Jews today consider the writings. Christ never quoted from: the Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum. He let his church determine what scripture is. But quoting things does not matter, because St. Paul quotes Pagan Greek Poetry. Christ never said what he considered was the complete canon.

What else does Christ say?

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.” (Matthew 23:2-3)
There is no mention of the Chair of Moses in the Bible; this is solely a tradition of the Jews. Christ tells his disciples to follow the teachings of the Chair of Moses, but not to follow the poor example of the Pharisees.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!

(continuing solely by his grace!)

YAQUBOS:

Going to HUMAN dictionary again and again…

Well then, next my professor tells me to do a research project, I will tell him I cannot go to the Library, because the books there are fallible human traditions.

YAQUBOS:

Dear friend:

1. **A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers. **

I am not a member of a WESTERN Church.

My faith and practice is founded on the Word of God, and this is NOT a new principle that the Reformation has found out. Many real Chritians were living according to this divine truth long before the Reformation, since the days of Jesus Christ.

Sorry. “Some Western, non-Catholic, groups are labeled as Protestant, even if the sect acknowledges no historical connection to Luther, Calvin, or the Anabaptists. These sundry groupings, i.e. Lutherans, Calvinists, Anabaptists, and other sectarians, are characterized in part by a lack of apostolic succession, in the sense that their founders are not anointed successors of St. Peter.
Protestants are often considered to be another people ‘of the book’, in that they adhere to the text of the Bible, that they grew out of the enlightenment and universities, that they attracted learned intellectuals, professionals, and skilled tradesmen and silversmiths, that their belief is more abstracted than ritualized, and that the great dissemination of protestant beliefs occurred with the translation by Protestants into native tongues from Latin (Greek and Hebrew) with the new technology of the printing press. Protestants are also less fond of hierarchy, having relentlessly attacked the priestly cast and the Holy See’s authority, and thus are closely associated with the local control and political democratization during the 16th and 17th century.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant

The reason why it is labled Western, is because the Heresy of Sola Scriptura originated in the West.