Biden picks Kamala Harris as running mate

[meltzerboy2]

But KH is a woman, so she is not permitted to be ambitious or unprincipled.

 

[Jeanne_S]

seems Hillary Clinton was allowed to be ambitious and unprincipled ,KH is much better looking than HC however.

 

[upant]

That’s a false judgement.

it is not,

he said

In the end, it is the candidate who is on the ballot, not a specific issue.

there is even a nice little “tweet this” link for just this line.

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I listed the issues in Catholic social teaching that Catholics are called to consider.

you did not address the DNC policies that are against church teaching, they support abortion, the entire LGBT agenda, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, transgenderism, identity politics, the destruction of the family, contraception, socialism, breaking the seal of the confession, forced abortions in Catholic hospitals, and selecting liberal judges who will uphold these policies, etc

a vote for a democrat supports these policies.

The popes and bishops have prioritized issues, not candidates.

another bishop, another point of view, Bishop Michael J. Sheridan of Colorado Springs (bold mine)

On May 14, 2004, Bishop Michael J. Sheridan of Colorado Springs said that “any Catholic politicians who advocate for abortion, for illicit stem cell research or for any form of euthanasia ipso facto place themselves outside full communion with the Church and so jeopardize their salvation, and that any Catholics who vote for candidates who stand for abortion, illicit stem cell research or euthanasia suffer the same fateful consequences. It is for this reason that these Catholics, whether candidates for office or those who would vote for them, may not receive Holy Communion until they have recanted their positions and been reconciled with God and the Church in the Sacrament of Penance. ” The Bishop noted that while there may be many issues to consider when voting, the right to life trumps all other issues

Biden was denied communion for his abortion agenda.

 

[Dobby]

It’s not nonsense to people of color.

 

[upant]

suggesting that Archbishop McElroy has an agenda to support a particular candidate

read his writings, it isn’t hard to discern who and which party he supports.

Yes, you will find a diversity of opinion among the bishops, but you will not find a universal teaching by the Church, so let’s not pretend one exists.

the teaching doesn’t say what you want it to say because it can’t. it would force people not to vote. the bishops and two popes prioritized abortion as the main issue facing the states, let’s not pretend they didn’t.

Rene Henry Gracida, Bishop Emeritus of Corpus Christi, Texas (2004) explains it clearly.

What Is Proportionate Reason?

as does Jimmy Akin

Many suggested Cardinal Ratzinger was giving his blessing to voting for pro-aborts if there were enough other good things about them. But having a number of good points is not enough. As the Cardinal indicated, there must be counterbalancing reasons proportional to abortion.

Such reasons are not easy to come up with, particularly for candidates seeking offices that have the ability to impact abortion law significantly. These include the presidents who nominate Supreme Court justices and the senators who confirm them. One wants to weed out pro-abort candidates on the lowest level possible so that they can’t use their political track record to get elected to higher office. But the more impact the office has on abortion policy, the more weighty a reason must be to allow a vote for them.

What kind of reason would be needed to vote for a pro-abort candidate for president? Something unimaginably huge.

Jobs? The economy? Taxes? Education? The environment? Immigration? Forget it. We do not have nine million people dying in a typical president’s term of office due to bad job programs, bad economic policies, bad taxes, bad education, bad environmental law, bad immigration rules—or even all of these combined. All of them together cannot provide a reason proportionate to the need to end abortion.

Make no mistake: Abortion is the preeminent moral issue of our time. It is the black hole that out-masses every other issue. Presenting any other issues as if they were proportionate to it is nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Explaining Ratzinger's "Proportionate Reasons" | Catholic Answers Magazine

And some of these policies are particularly mentioned in the list of issues that Catholics should consider when voting by Archbishop McElroy.

which still doesn’t address how a catholic could support these policies. all of the issues are against church teaching not just a few on his list.

 

[upant]

After all, Catholics are called to NOT be single issue voters. So, you can’t say that the pre-eminence of abortion overrides all other issues without saying that you are now a single issue voter.

I didn’t say it, the popes and bishops said it. the bishops took a vote. the popes put out teachings on it.

it is the priority issue but not the only issue, I presented a list of democratic policies that go against Catholic teaching but you want to limit it to one, it isn’t one issue anymore.

I’ve read his writings. They seem quite balanced. Maybe you can point me to something in particular.

define balanced? read his stance on the Paris accord

has he defined proportionate reasons?

No it wouldn’t. It would call on their prudential judgement to make a decision on who to vote for.

people could not vote for most candidates if the church said you can’t vote for a person who supports abortion. in the real world, very few politicians are 100% against abortion. you have to go with who will do the least damage and it isn’t Joe Biden

I would point out that Bishop Gracida wrote this quite a while ago, so he does not bring up climate change,

climate change isn’t the pre-eminent issue now, is it?

climate change isn’t killing 600,000 Americans each year. how many more will die when Biden has the feds pay for abortions?

it boggles my mind that people can try and justify supporting politicians who push laws that kill 600,000 babies a year. 60 million since RvW, wow

as we have grown to understand the science behind it better.

the science is paid for on both sides, they got what they paid for. it isn’t settled. both have defectors claiming it is fixed. if climate change is a priority issue why will China and India open new coal plants for the next ten years, how much of an emergency can it be? why not have them build green energy plants?

Thank you, but I don’t consider lay person’s opinions on Catholic teaching when forming mine.

not all canon lawyers and apologists wear collars. it was a clear explanation of proportionate reasoning.

I focus on the teachings put forth by the Church and the Church’s Popes and Bishops.

they prioritized abortion as the pre-eminent issue, do you agree with that

Yes, there are many issues that a Catholic needs to consider when choosing who to vote for and I don’t think Archbishop McElroy intended that list to be everything, but a list of the most important issues.

I didn’t say consider I said justify voting for these issues. a vote for a Democrat is a vote for these policies,

 

[meltzerboy2]

I’m not so sure HC was allowed this luxury. I think it counted against her.

 

[upant]

If you read what he said, Archbishop McElroy pointed out that climate change could end all human life on earth. I think that would count as proportional.

really? so could a meteor.

the bible is clear, life will be here when Jesus returns. life won’t end.

a maybe is not proportionate to 600,000+ real deaths.

They said it was the pre-eminent issue which means it is the most important, not more important so that it overrides all others.

yes they did

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia…

is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.

Many feel quite strongly that the US leaving the Paris accord was a grave matter.

and many saw it for the wealth redistribution game it was, no mandates and new coal plants till 2030. real emergency

Okay, so why are we talking about abortion then?

because it is the pre-eminent issue

This is making abortion the only issue and reducing Catholics to single issue voters.

again you ignore the other issues that go against church teaching

I choose to listen to Church teachings directly as well as the words of the Pope and the bishops without having a lay person tell me their view on what it means.

how do you define proportionate reasoning?

We should consider the root causes of abortion

look at the list of democratic policies that go against church teachings and you see the root cause, it is the hedonistic lifestyle being pushed by the democratic party.

What?

by voting in a Democrat, you enable the entire LGBT agenda, euthanasia, embryonic
stem cell research, transgenderism, identity politics, the destruction of the family, contraception, socialism, breaking the seal of the confession, federal funds to pay for abortions, forced abortions in Catholic hospitals, the selection of liberal judges who will uphold these policies, etc

 

[meltzerboy2]

From a different albeit non-Catholic cultural perspective, however, by voting for a Democrat, this enables tolerance for other lifestyles such as LGBT, as well as fairness in employment, housing, the legal system, and so on; the legal right and personal dignity to die if in pain and suffering; the use of non-sentient embryos that would have been discarded to help sentient people who are in constant pain and suffering from chronic illnesses; tolerance for people who are in emotional pain because they were born in the wrong body; tolerance for alternative family lifestyles in addition to the traditional nuclear family, which no administration is abandoning; allowing women the choice and dignity to plan for their family; entitlement programs that help people at least survive, such as Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, and Social Security; seal of confession (this one, I agree, should remain sacrosanct, and will remain sacrosanct under any administration); federal funds, which are also used to pay for war, whether just or unjust; I agree Catholic hospitals should not be forced to perform abortions, but will any administration do this?; should not the SCOTUS and other courts be balanced? And, in general, while Catholics might not be permitted to vote for Democrats (although I question this as well), our nation is not made up of Catholics alone and, hopefully, will never be a theocracy of any religious belief or practice, but will remain a mosaic of diverse beliefs, both religious and political. I hope and pray that both major parties understand this.

 

[PaulinVA]

by voting in a Democrat, you enable the entire LGBT agenda, euthanasia, embryonic
stem cell research, transgenderism, identity politics, the destruction of the family, contraception, socialism, breaking the seal of the confession, federal funds to pay for abortions, forced abortions in Catholic hospitals, the selection of liberal judges who will uphold these policies, etc

We need to get the Republic back on track and get rid of the people who are trying to create a totalitarian state. Then we can deal with electing people who respect life.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Then how can one possibly consider the Dem party.They Re the ones taking away our personal freedoms,little by little…

 

[PaulinVA]

Then how can one possibly consider the Dem party.They Re the ones taking away our personal freedoms,little by little

That’s not true. The Democrats are trying to fund the USPS so we can have a free and fair election. The President is trying to cripple the USPS so they can’t delver the mail, including mail-in ballots. He said that. He also said that mail-in voting allows Democratic candidates to do better, and he wants to stop it.

He’s saying it and tweeting it. That’s the immediate threat.

 

[PaulinVA]

And, just to be clear, the President, while trying to make mail-in voting unworkable, and arguing that it’s ripe for fraud, is voting my mail in Tuesday’s Florida Republican Party statewide primary.

He’s registered at his Mar-a-lago address, after he told Palm Beach County in a zoning agreement that he would never live at Mar-a-lago.

Voter fraud.

 

[SetYouFree]

Republicans are doing the same thing.

 

[RidgeSprinter]

You are making up your own definition of “most affected”, likely to rationalize a deceptive graph.

No not at all.
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If it is deceptive, than by all means contact John Hopkins and confront them about it.
All I did was provide a plausible reasoning for not including San Marino, Belgium, United Kingdom,
Andorra, Spain, and Sweden

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vs
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San Marino and Andorra are excluded due to deaths that are small. 42 & 53 respectively. Not most affected.

Belgium has a flat death curve:
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United Kingdom has nearly flattened out the death curve and daily deaths are very very low
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Spain has a flat death curve:
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Sweden the death curve is nearly flattened out:
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[RidgeSprinter]

Whether you look at Cases/Mill pop or Deaths/Mill Pop, you a very different set of top countries.
UK isn’t even in the top 50

Really?

Case Fatality, UK is 2nd
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Deaths/100K POP, UK is 4th
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[upant]

From a different albeit non-Catholic cultural perspective,

unfortunately, we see these sins as a potential threat to salvation, tolerance is good but it comes with eternal consequences if people engage in the sin. we want all to go to heaven.

We need to get the Republic back on track

on track is an opinion, the list of democratic policies can be an eternal decision for those engaging in the sins of some of the policies.

The Democrats are trying to fund the USPS so we can have a free and fair election.

no, they are trying to stop the improvements needed to make the USPS profitable. the plants closed long ago. the standard changed long ago. continuing to deliver like you had more plants and more mail is a fool’s quest. they won’t reopen plants.

The President is trying to cripple the USPS so they can’t delver the mail, including mail-in ballots.

the USPS is crippling itself with mismanagement. the only delayed mail is junk mail which isn’t being paid for at overnight pricing. it is supposed to have a date range for delivery.

 

[PaulinVA]

no, they are trying to stop the improvements needed to make the USPS profitable. the plants closed long ago. the standard changed long ago. continuing to deliver like you had more plants and more mail is a fool’s quest. they won’t reopen plants.

No, right now the Democrats are trying to fund the Post Office to support the election and the Republicans are blocking it.

the USPS is crippling itself with mismanagement. the only delayed mail is junk mail which isn’t being paid for at overnight pricing. it is supposed to have a date range for delivery.

This is absolutely false. Drugs and first class mail are now taking weeks. It’s on purpose.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Why do you imagine it is so important to the Dems,that we have mail in voting!?:face_with_raised_eyebrow:Rhetorical question,BTW

 

[upant]

The death toll from abortion is more immediate, but the long-term death toll from unchecked climate change is larger and threatens the very future of humanity.

at this point, it is all speculation. I believe in the bible and not paid for science predictions.

do you think people will be here when Jesus returns?

This does not mean that all other issues are to be ignored when choosing a candidate to vote for.

they take a backseat to the priorities, these may put people’s salvation in jeopardy if they engage in these sins.

Canon 1398 states: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

No, I am considering all the issues. You seem to have your own list that is different from those listed in Forming Consciences.

you can’t ignore these sins because they aren’t written in a letter.

using St Paul’s message, will engaging in these sins get a person into heaven?

we are talking about eternal consequences, not just a dem/gop divide.

Does God want abortion to be legal or illegal?

How many will die in sin following the hedonistic lifestyle being pushed by the democrats?

yet, there you go again making it just about abortion. so to quote StJohn Paul II again

Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights-for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture- is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.

we are going circles and hogging the thread so you can have the last word if you respond

I will pray for people to see the damage the hedonistic lifestyle causes to souls and its potential to keep people from heaven.

we can’t allow people to live in sin or vote for sinful policies without speak up about it. Salvation is at stake.

from another thread or forum (sorry to the first poster of this, I forget who gets this credit)

I want us to consider the following quote from the self-proclaimed atheist Penn Jillette. He states:

“I’ve always said that I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. I don’t respect that at all. If you believe that there’s a heaven and a hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life, and you think that it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward—and atheists who think people shouldn’t proselytize and who say just leave me along and keep your religion to yourself—how much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?
“I mean, if I believed, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that a truck was coming at you, and you didn’t believe that truck was bearing down on you, there is a certain point where I tackle you. And this is more important than that.”