Can catholics be masons?

[sseason]

Wow, interesting posts–this has been the topic of previous threads, and I always find it interesting to see the thoughts, opinions, and statements of my fellow brother catholics. Below is a post I did previously. I felt obliged to repost–the thread was deleted from where it was posted previously.

**I have been a Roman Catholic for eight years now and am active in my parish. I attend mass every Sunday when achievable, and try to be in communion with the Holy See as much as possible for a sinner.

I have been a Mason for five years (32nd degree Scottish Rite for four years).

For the past two years, I have not been active in my masonic lodge because of my discovery of the Catholic Church’s “ban” on Masonry and have tried to find a valid reasons for the Church’s position. After much searching, I have yet to find such valid reason.

Before becoming a member, my blue lodge was very upfront with the fact that it was not a religious organization and that if religion is what I desired, I should go to church. The lodge knew that I was Catholic as are other members of my lodge—I had no reason to hide it—and it was never held against me or anyone else. I have never seen nor heard any anti-Catholic rhetoric in masonry. Therefore I cannot believe that Freemasonry is anti-Catholic. I am not saying that there are no members who are against the Church, but none that I have ever seen, and the organization itself is not anti-Catholic.

I was told that a belief in God was required to become a Mason. One reason for this was to make the oaths valid. An oath of an atheist would hold no recourse (at least in his mind). The prerequisite of belief in God does not make Freemasonry a religion; there is just simply no room for atheist in the organization.

My blue lodge has at least one Jewish member. Therefore I understand why the prayers are to God. He is a fellow human being and the fraternity wants him to feel welcome. Prayers prior to high school football games here in Texas are prayed in a similar way.

Freemasonry is a benevolent fraternity. It strives to make good men better—not bad men good— or good men bad. Many of the founders of the United States of America were Masons as well as the founders of the Republic of Texas. Freemasonry has provided and does provide for orphans, widows, elderly, sick children and many others. The first public education in Texas was set up with the help of Masons—it was free to everyone (not just Masons’ kids).

If you want to find some “bad” masons, you probably will not have to look very far. However to judge the entire fraternity because of the actions of a few is unjust. I do not judge the Church that way—I hope it would not judge Freemasonry that way. The more and more I study and pray about this issue, the more I feel convinced of the need to become more active again in my local lodge.

The late Archbishop Fulton Sheen was fond of saying that there are no more than a hundred people in the US that hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be (please excuse any misquote as unintentional). I believe something similar could be said of Freemasonry.

I do not doubt that both organizations have been hurt by the other in some form or fashion throughout the course of history. However, just as the Church teaches forgiveness, it is time to forgive. Let’s let bygones be bygones.

I have done a lot of research but have not been able to anser the question of:

“Why is the Roman Catholic Church against Freemasonry?”**

It is in the Catechism that you can not be a Catholic and be a freemason. The choice is yours. But remember that you are excommunicating yourself.

Do you choose to be a member of the Catholic Church, founded by Christ?
Or do you choose to be a member of the Freemasons?

And if you want to be a member for charitable reasons, why choose something that the Church clearly say’s not to. There are thousands of Catholic and even non denominational organizations that do charitable work. Why the defiance? Why risk your own soul?

“Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church; to you I give the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven” Matthew 18;18

 

[DallasTexas]

Part I of II

The below, like the above, is from a previous post.

Quaesitum est et al
Issued by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on November 26, 1983.

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.
This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance is due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.
Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html

In my humble opinion, this fails to explain why the Church is against Freemasonry?

Below are some additional texts.

Church Documents Explicitly Prohibiting Freemasonry:
In Emineti, Pope Clement XII, April 28, 1738
Leo XIII – Humanum Genus 1884
Leo XIII – Dall’alto dell’Apostolico Seggio 1890
Leo XIII –Inimica Vis 1892
Leo XIII – Custodi di quella fede 1892
Quaesitum est, Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI)

Church Documents not Prohibiting Freemasonry:
1917 Code of Canon Law
1983 Code of Canon Law

Reasons I have seen as to why the Church is against Freemasonry:

Freemasons wish to destroy the Church.
I can assure you this is not true. Freemasonry encourages its members to attend the worship service of their choice. It neither supports nor opposes any particular divisions.

Freemasonry is a secret society.
Freemasons would disagree with this. They will tell you that the only thing secret is how one identifies himself to another mason.

Freemasonry has hidden wishes “to bind men like slaves in the very tightest bonds, and without giving any sufficient reason; to make use of men enslaved to the will of another for any arbitrary act; to arm men’s right hands for bloodshed after securing impunity for the crime.” (Leo XIII – Humanum Genus #10).
This is not Freemasonry. The members of my lodge are peaceful, upright citizens; I really don’t think they are going to be seeking impunity for bloodshed any time soon. I have not gone to a meeting in two to maybe even three years—I have not been bond or enslaved to come back to the organization.

Freemasonry is accused of supporting:
Religious Indifferentism-
This is true to the extent that Freemasonry is indifferent to which religion you belong—as long as you believe in God.
I think it is good that Freemasonry requires a belief in God—so many organization now don’t even require that (ie Boy/Girl Scouts along with many other groups/clubs).

Egalitarianism
This is the belief that all people in a society should have equal rights.
The Freemasons probably believe in this one too.

Cultural Pluralism
Having/being a lot of different cultures (I think this would be synonymous with multi-culturalism).
They probably believe in this one also.

Civil Liberty
Freedoms that protect the individual from the government.
Once again, probably so.

Separation between church and state
No religious institution should control the government, nor vice-versa.
Dido (probably).

I had to answer with the caveat of saying “probably” to the majority of the above. The truth of the matter is I am only assuming on their political beliefs based on what I know about their character—Freemasons are asked not to discuss their political beliefs in lodge. From what I saw most lodge meetings were more focused on fund raisers for the related charities, upkeep of the lodge, and helping older members of the community. In all my 32 degrees, I never heard anyone talk neither politics nor religion (other than possibly where they go to church or maybe an office they hold in their church—many are deacons, ushers, etc).

 

[DallasTexas]

Part II of II

However, I do not see anything wrong with any of the ideas the last section. Most are what this great country of ours is based on. I hold true to many of these ideas because I am an American.

In history I am sure we can refer to incidents when a mason disagreed with the Church. I feel sure that we can find times when individuals from the two organizations were not in agreement with each other. There are many organizations which have, at some time in the past, not been in agreement with the Church. Is that a reason for forbidding membership into the organization and calling it a mortal sin?

I don’t mean to be cynical about this, but the charges I continue to hear against Freemasonry are untrue and invalid.

It might very well be that the Church is seeing a different kind of Freemasonry in Europe than what exist here in the US. Some so-called lodges, such as the French Lodges that allows atheists as members or the Italy’s Propaganda Due Lodge in Rome (that was involved in the financial scandal that almost bankrupted the Vatican Bank) are not recognized as lodges (Propaganda Due lost its charter in 1976—the scandal erupted in 1982) and are seen as renegade lodges by many Grand Lodges thus their members are not recognized as Freemasons by many other Freemasons. It might be that this is the example of Freemasonry that the Vatican has seen and therefore developed such opinion of the organization has developed.

In my personal opinion, it would be a disgrace to the Lord God, who granted us the ability to learn and reason, to accept a mandate from the Church without knowing why. As a Christian, I feel the obligation to stand up for what is right. Reading the above listed documents, I have found that many are not filled with what I would consider Christian love.

The more I read the more I become aware that the Roman Catholic Church is mistaking in passing judgment against Freemasonry.

 

[DallasTexas]

sseasons,

Thank you for your post!

It is in the Catechism that you can not be a Catholic and be a freemason. The choice is yours. But remember that you are excommunicating yourself.

Please tell me where in the Catechism. I have an unabridged copy buy am unable to find it. I’ve searched for it before but have come up empty-handed.

Do you choose to be a member of the Catholic Church, founded by Christ?
Or do you choose to be a member of the Freemasons?

I don’t think they should be mutually exclusive.

And if you want to be a member for charitable reasons, why choose something that the Church clearly say’s not to. There are thousands of Catholic and even non denominational organizations that do charitable work. Why the defiance? Why risk your own soul?

I really don’t think my soul is at risk for being a mason.

I appreciate your posting.

 

[mlchance]

I don’t think they should be mutually exclusive.

Doesn’t matter. The Church is clear: One cannot be a Catholic in good standing and be a Freemason at the same time. Rome has spoken; the case is closed.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=13786
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=115585

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[sseason]

sseasons,

Thank you for your post!

Please tell me where in the Catechism. I have an unabridged copy buy am unable to find it. I’ve searched for it before but have come up empty-handed.

I can not tell you all of the reasons “why” the Church says that you can not be a mason. I could give many reasons that are said, speculations, etc. But I am sure there are reasons beyond our understanding. As most things in this world. As humans we are not capable of understanding everything. But we are given free will. Free will to choose wether or not we believe that the Catholic Church is truly the Church of Jesus Christ. As a Catholic, I believe this. And I believe Christ when he said to Peter “what you bind on earth is bound in heaven.”

Sometimes obedience comes before understanding.

FROM THE CATECHISM

On obedience
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PV.HTM

On freedom and responsibility (human reason oand will)
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5N.HTM

On the Magisterium of the Church
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P74.HTM

 

[mystified]

The Church has been very clear about this for a very long time. The answer is “No.”

Except, maybe in a certain West Coast diocese, where a high ranking member of the masonic order is active in his local parish. The pastor and bishop are aware of his leadership role in Freemasonry and have done nothing. He is at Mass most Sundays and receives Communion.

 

[thistle]

Part II of II

However, I do not see anything wrong with any of the ideas the last section. Most are what this great country of ours is based on. I hold true to many of these ideas because I am an American.

In history I am sure we can refer to incidents when a mason disagreed with the Church. I feel sure that we can find times when individuals from the two organizations were not in agreement with each other. There are many organizations which have, at some time in the past, not been in agreement with the Church. Is that a reason for forbidding membership into the organization and calling it a mortal sin?

I don’t mean to be cynical about this, but the charges I continue to hear against Freemasonry are untrue and invalid.

It might very well be that the Church is seeing a different kind of Freemasonry in Europe than what exist here in the US. Some so-called lodges, such as the French Lodges that allows atheists as members or the Italy’s Propaganda Due Lodge in Rome (that was involved in the financial scandal that almost bankrupted the Vatican Bank) are not recognized as lodges (Propaganda Due lost its charter in 1976—the scandal erupted in 1982) and are seen as renegade lodges by many Grand Lodges thus their members are not recognized as Freemasons by many other Freemasons. It might be that this is the example of Freemasonry that the Vatican has seen and therefore developed such opinion of the organization has developed.

In my personal opinion, it would be a disgrace to the Lord God, who granted us the ability to learn and reason, to accept a mandate from the Church without knowing why. As a Christian, I feel the obligation to stand up for what is right. Reading the above listed documents, I have found that many are not filled with what I would consider Christian love.

The more I read the more I become aware that the Roman Catholic Church is mistaking in passing judgment against Freemasonry.

The choice is yours. Obey the Church or not. If not then you put yourself into a state of mortal sin.
Have you read yet the book Masonry Unmasked by John Salza who was a level 32 mason but has come back to the Church. You can find it on EWTN (also at bookstores) which also did a program interview with him talking about the masons.

 

[NoMoreGames]

It is in the Catechism that you can not be a Catholic and be a freemason. The choice is yours. But remember that you are excommunicating yourself.

To me the concept of excommunication goes against fundamental church teachings. The church accepts sinners, that who Jesus came from. Why would a church built by God for sinners shut somebody out for sinning?

 

[DallasTexas]

To me the concept of excommunication goes against fundamental church teachings. The church accepts sinners, that who Jesus came from. Why would a church built by God for sinners shut somebody out for sinning?

Did Jesus excommunicate the women at the well?

Or the thief that died on the cross next to him?

 

[tobinatorstark]

Wow, interesting posts–this has been the topic of previous threads, and I always find it interesting to see the thoughts, opinions, and statements of my fellow brother catholics. Below is a post I did previously. I felt obliged to repost–the thread was deleted from where it was posted previously.

**I have been a Roman Catholic for eight years now and am active in my parish. I attend mass every Sunday when achievable, and try to be in communion with the Holy See as much as possible for a sinner.

I have been a Mason for five years (32nd degree Scottish Rite for four years).

For the past two years, I have not been active in my masonic lodge because of my discovery of the Catholic Church’s “ban” on Masonry and have tried to find a valid reasons for the Church’s position. After much searching, I have yet to find such valid reason.

Before becoming a member, my blue lodge was very upfront with the fact that it was not a religious organization and that if religion is what I desired, I should go to church. The lodge knew that I was Catholic as are other members of my lodge—I had no reason to hide it—and it was never held against me or anyone else. I have never seen nor heard any anti-Catholic rhetoric in masonry. Therefore I cannot believe that Freemasonry is anti-Catholic. I am not saying that there are no members who are against the Church, but none that I have ever seen, and the organization itself is not anti-Catholic.

I was told that a belief in God was required to become a Mason. One reason for this was to make the oaths valid. An oath of an atheist would hold no recourse (at least in his mind). The prerequisite of belief in God does not make Freemasonry a religion; there is just simply no room for atheist in the organization.

My blue lodge has at least one Jewish member. Therefore I understand why the prayers are to God. He is a fellow human being and the fraternity wants him to feel welcome. Prayers prior to high school football games here in Texas are prayed in a similar way.

Freemasonry is a benevolent fraternity. It strives to make good men better—not bad men good— or good men bad. Many of the founders of the United States of America were Masons as well as the founders of the Republic of Texas. Freemasonry has provided and does provide for orphans, widows, elderly, sick children and many others. The first public education in Texas was set up with the help of Masons—it was free to everyone (not just Masons’ kids).

If you want to find some “bad” masons, you probably will not have to look very far. However to judge the entire fraternity because of the actions of a few is unjust. I do not judge the Church that way—I hope it would not judge Freemasonry that way. The more and more I study and pray about this issue, the more I feel convinced of the need to become more active again in my local lodge.

The late Archbishop Fulton Sheen was fond of saying that there are no more than a hundred people in the US that hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be (please excuse any misquote as unintentional). I believe something similar could be said of Freemasonry.

I do not doubt that both organizations have been hurt by the other in some form or fashion throughout the course of history. However, just as the Church teaches forgiveness, it is time to forgive. Let’s let bygones be bygones.

I have done a lot of research but have not been able to anser the question of:

“Why is the Roman Catholic Church against Freemasonry?”**

You know if your priest finds out that you are a Mason you could be excommunicated???

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Did Jesus excommunicate the women at the well?

Or the thief that died on the cross next to him?

Let me see if I have this straight, Dallas.

You are attempting to equate the behavior of Jesus and the behavior of the Church and by extension, saying that “since Jesus did not excommunicate the woman and the well or the thief on the cross --both of whom we note, if you do not, that they were repentant sinners–that is, the woman at the well did not go on to live an adulterous ‘rest of her life’ and the thief on the cross didn’t go back to thieving”, therefore the Catholic Church shouldn’t even THINK of such a thing as excommunication for ‘sinners’.

Perhaps you need to look a little further in your Bible (try Acts) to note what happens to UNrepentant sinners. Look under “Ananias and Saphira”.

Do you understand that the Church has the authority of Jesus?

Do you understand that the ‘binding and loosing’ isn’t just for things you personally agree with? That being a Catholic doesn’t involve ‘picking and choosing’ as though you need only do what you like, and ignore the rest for something ‘better’ (like your ‘masonry’), secure and smug that those who do so are the only true, tolerant, Christ-like people because they will accept ‘anything’ under the **extreme misconception **that JESUS ‘accepted’ anything. (He didn’t. Not by a long shot.)

And excommunication is not ‘damnation’. Excommunication is a very simple cause/effect type of thing. For example, if you drive 70 m.p.h. in a 30 m.p.h. zone, you can argue all you want that you’re a safe, careful driver, that it saves your gas mileage, that you ‘just had to’, but the fact is, there is a law there, and if you disobey, you will suffer consequences from those whose job it is to enforce that law.

The Church, if you break its laws, will not damn you. It will simply ‘abide by your choice’–that is, it says, “You break a law, you remain ‘outside’ the Church and its sacraments until you stop breaking the law, repent, and are then readmitted.”

 

[sseason]

To me the concept of excommunication goes against fundamental church teachings. The church accepts sinners, that who Jesus came from. Why would a church built by God for sinners shut somebody out for sinning?

The Church does not shut them out. We are all sinners. And when we are in the state of mortal sin we separate ourselves from God. Not the other way around. It’s called free will. The will to Love God or the will to say no to His teachings.

Of course the Church accepts sinners. She also gives us a Sacrament to cleanse ourselves of our sins. The Sacrament of Confession. And if a Mason desires to come back to the Church and is truly sorry for rejecting Her teachings, then he is free to do so by receiving confession.

 

[NoMoreGames]

The Church does not shut them out. We are all sinners. And when we are in the state of mortal sin we separate ourselves from God. Not the other way around. It’s called free will. The will to Love God or the will to say no to His teachings.

Of course the Church accepts sinners. She also gives us a Sacrament to cleanse ourselves of our sins. The Sacrament of Confession. And if a Mason desires to come back to the Church and is truly sorry for rejecting Her teachings, then he is free to do so by receiving confession.

Then why excommunicate in the first place? I guess that is my main confusion.

Perhaps it also stems from my education of European history where the Pope dangled the threat of excommunication over the head of kings in order to get them to behave his way to avoid eternal damnation.

 

[Rafaela]

This is reply to the original question. Our Bishop covered it in our RCIA class. The answer is no. You cannot be Catholic and Mason at the same time. You cannot answer yes and no to same question at same time. That would mean (excuse me of example) some sort of ‘‘spiritual-bipolar-disorder’’. :bluelite:

 

[sseason]

Then why excommunicate in the first place? I guess that is my main confusion.

Perhaps it also stems from my education of European history where the Pope dangled the threat of excommunication over the head of kings in order to get them to behave his way to avoid eternal damnation.

Excommunication is usually something that you incurr upon yourself by denying the teachings of the Church. You can’t wear the Catholic badge and reject her teachings. Falling into sin through temptation is one thing. Out right denying her teachings is quite another.

As far as the history of the Church and Popes that may be considered “bad” Popes…I would be going off subject and quiete honestly I don’t have the knowledge. I do know that there were Popes who did things that were not good. That’s as far as I’ll go.
Some quotes from Canon law and the Catechism are below that might be helpful.

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

The phrase “latae sententiae” means a judgment or sentence which has already been brought, in other words, a sentence or judgment which does not need a future additional judgment from someone in authority; it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the future particular judgment of a case by competent authority.

 

[Seatuck]

Scripture is very clear on how we should treat Catholics who refuse to follow church teaching. Both Christ and St Paul describe what is the teaching for what the church knows as Excommunication. Excommunication is a pastoral practice to get someone’s attention that they are putting their soul in grave jeopardy.

Matthew 18

If your brother 12 sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
16 13 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. 18 15 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
St Paul’s 1st Letter to the Corinthians describes excommunication very well.

usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians5.htm#v1

The one who did this deed should be expelled from your midst.

Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough

There are of course references to pruning off the bad vines and such as well.

 

[coda]

I for one am a mason and a catholic. For all of you who posted negative remarks regarding the masons, you should do some research before posting your comments. Masonry dates way back since King Solomon era. Every time we open a lodge we bow our heads and say a prayer. We have an open bible in the middle of the room. I don’t see why this is against the catholic religion. Please do your research.

Because belief in a “grand architecht of the universe” is VASTLY different than what your Catholic faith teaches…It is a slap in the face of your Crucified and Risen Savior. Do your research…

 

[DallasTexas]

Because belief in a “grand architecht of the universe” is VASTLY different than what your Catholic faith teaches…It is a slap in the face of your Crucified and Risen Savior. Do your research…

What is the difference between God, Jesus, Yaweh, Dios, Cristo, Diety and Grand Architect of the Universe?

 

[coda]

What is the difference between God, Jesus, Yaweh, Dios, Cristo, Diety and Grand Architect of the Universe?

SOME of these names “imply” THE GOD {TRIUNE} we understand to be true as Catholics. Diety and g.a.o.t.u most definitely do not define the distinct belief of a Catholic{or a Christian}. To be involved in the masons, one simply has to allow for anyone’s differing view on {Any} Godthereby agreeing implicitly}. A Catholic cannot agree that the TRIUNE GOD is the equivelent of buddha, muhammad, “grand architect” etc…It is a slap in the face of our one true}Triune God. Putting all this aside, the initiation rituals, oaths {and verbiage in them} are/is MOST DEFINITELY NOT compatible with any Catholic teaching.