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D
DallasTexas
Guest
Part I of II
Mr. S,
Thank you for your posting.
Fr. Saunders article is an interesting one and brings up a lot of good questions.
In the words of Abraham Lincoln, “If I were two-faced, do you think that I’d be wearing this one?”
Furthermore, I choose to hide my identity because we are active in our parish community and would probably suffer repercussions is my masonic status was known.
**Altar **- this is were we place the Bible
Moral Code - Many schools and universities have moral code or “codes of conduct” for their students. Does this make them a religion?
**Vestments **- Ditto the above. For example, graduation ceremony cap and gowns…
Feast Days - Ditto the above. Texas v. OU weekend…
Hierarchy of Leadership - ditto the above
Initiation and burial rites - instead of rites think of ceremony… the burial rite is our way of saying goodbye to a brother who is gone and will be missed.
Promises of eternal reward and punishment - Whoa! I remember when I joined being promised that Freemasonry was not a religion. The proof was that there was not plan of salvation. Is Father Saunders saying that I was told wrong? I would love to see a reference on this statement.
Would anybody know where he got his information?
Part I of II
Mr. S,
Thank you for your posting.
Fr. Saunders article is an interesting one and brings up a lot of good questions.
This is a really neat analogy, however if the masons are trying to hide something from the public, it’s a pretty poorly kept secret. The only thing that is kept secret are the ways in which we identify ourselves to fellow masons–everything else can be found on History Channel documentaries.
In the words of Abraham Lincoln, “If I were two-faced, do you think that I’d be wearing this one?”
Furthermore, I choose to hide my identity because we are active in our parish community and would probably suffer repercussions is my masonic status was known.
Just as a side-note: some argue against Freemasonry saying that it is a religion and others say that it is atheisitic… call me a poor East Texas farmboy but aren’t the two mutually exclusive. How can it be a religion and atheistic? My answer is that it’s neither, but I thought that was an interesting point.
**Temples **- the headquarters for the Templar Knights was King Solomon’s temple. Masons continue to use this term as reference to our place of meeting
**Altar **- this is were we place the Bible
Moral Code - Many schools and universities have moral code or “codes of conduct” for their students. Does this make them a religion?
**Vestments **- Ditto the above. For example, graduation ceremony cap and gowns…
Feast Days - Ditto the above. Texas v. OU weekend…
Hierarchy of Leadership - ditto the above
Initiation and burial rites - instead of rites think of ceremony… the burial rite is our way of saying goodbye to a brother who is gone and will be missed.
Promises of eternal reward and punishment - Whoa! I remember when I joined being promised that Freemasonry was not a religion. The proof was that there was not plan of salvation. Is Father Saunders saying that I was told wrong? I would love to see a reference on this statement.
Would anybody know where he got his information?
This is true. Freemasonry does not discriminate on the basis of religion except that one must believe in God. The Grand Orient in France and other masonic Grand Lodges that admit atheists are not recognized by the Grand Lodges in the US.
Part I of II
D
DallasTexas
Guest
Part II of II
Description of the Scottish Rite degrees.
The 30th degree is a reinactment or play about the Knights Templar and their demise. Knowing the history behind the degree is important. This took place in France during the reign of King Philip IV and Pope Clement V. The Grand Master of the Knights Templar, De Molay was burned at the stake for retracting a confession that taken by torture.
I crushed neither a tiara nor a crown. If these items were crushed during the play (which I do not contest), it was neither against the Church nor against the fine country of France, but against Tyranny as the Knights Templar preceived it.
I believe the most important part of the degree and what is emphasized is the warning against seekig vengence and how it is self-destructive.
.
As for the link. Masons come from all walks of life, from many religions, and from both sides of the aisle. Inasmuch as all masons are different, their opinions will be different as well. No one man speaks for all of masonry.
I am not able to defend the words or actions of a brother mason any more than I am able to defend the words or actions of a parish priest–much less the words of a brother masons spouse.
Please let me know if I did not adequately cover any issue in the above.
Thank you for your time and for reading my letters.
Part II of II
Que Dios este contigo!
This is simply not true.
Description of the Scottish Rite degrees.
I am a 32nd degree Scottish Rite mason and sat through the degree.
The 30th degree is a reinactment or play about the Knights Templar and their demise. Knowing the history behind the degree is important. This took place in France during the reign of King Philip IV and Pope Clement V. The Grand Master of the Knights Templar, De Molay was burned at the stake for retracting a confession that taken by torture.
I crushed neither a tiara nor a crown. If these items were crushed during the play (which I do not contest), it was neither against the Church nor against the fine country of France, but against Tyranny as the Knights Templar preceived it.
I believe the most important part of the degree and what is emphasized is the warning against seekig vengence and how it is self-destructive.
I hold to my position that the Church is in error in It’s judgement against Freemasonry.
.
I am searching for the issue on which to respond–please correct me if my assumptions are incorrect. I believe that many Masons do believe that they have friends within the Catholic Church and believe this is not a bad thing.
As for the link. Masons come from all walks of life, from many religions, and from both sides of the aisle. Inasmuch as all masons are different, their opinions will be different as well. No one man speaks for all of masonry.
I am not able to defend the words or actions of a brother mason any more than I am able to defend the words or actions of a parish priest–much less the words of a brother masons spouse.
Please let me know if I did not adequately cover any issue in the above.
Thank you for your time and for reading my letters.
Part II of II
Que Dios este contigo!
R
rinnie
Guest
Just one point. A strong personal religion. That does not mean you are a Christian either. There are many Religions out there. But to be a Christian you have one God to follow Jesus Christ. And according to the Church Masons are against the Catholic Church.Despite what people have said about the Masons being anti-christian, my research has shown me that they actually highly suggest you have a very strong personal religion. Just because they have strange and secret ceremonies does not automatically mean they are against Christianity. It’s nothing more than boy scouts for adults
D
DallasTexas
Guest
N
NoMoreGames
Guest
So if one isn’t Christian, one is automatically against the Catholic Church?
R
rinnie
Guest
I would have to say yes. Because if you are not a Christian that means you do not believe in Jesus Christ, And if you do not believe in Jesus Christ how in the world could you be FOR the Catholic Church? Jesus said you are either with me, or you are against me, Did he not?
N
NoMoreGames
Guest
On a spiritual level, you are right. But that doesn’t mean masons are actively taking steps against the church. There at plenty of groups that are not christian that catholics are allowed to be involved in and the church does not condemn them as being against the church just because they don’t have a Christian affiliation.I would have to say yes. Because if you are not a Christian that means you do not believe in Jesus Christ, And if you do not believe in Jesus Christ how in the world could you be FOR the Catholic Church? Jesus said you are either with me, or you are against me, Did he not?
R
rinnie
Guest
But they do condemn the masons and if you are a mason you are not to receive communion. Is that not the point!
N
NoMoreGames
Guest
The church condemns masonry on the grounds that it is anti-catholic, but if it is not, on what grounds do they condemn it? Looking at the church’s history of quest for earthly power can answer that question.
M
MrS
Guest
Exactly… and that is the point that all Catholics should understand, and all Masons should understand.
A Mason cannot simply say, “I think the Church is wrong”, and continue to receive Communion.
Can a man be sacramentally married, and then say, I think the Church is wrong about adultry. Adultry does not harm the family. It is just an outlet for other needs."
R
rinnie
Guest
What is really the point of this discussion. The point is that it is. If it was not anti-Catholic whos says the Church WOULD forbid it. You either go by the Church or you do not. That is the reason God left us the Church to keep us within the fullness of the Faith.
If you are a Catholic and you want to receive Jesus Christ in the Eucharist you obey the Church. It is really as simple as that. I do not make up the rules of the CHurch, I do not have that authority. I just obey, and try to answer a question the best I can.
If you want to know why they cannot go back earlier on this post and it is shown why the Church says no, If that is not an acceptable answer I am sorry. Again I do not make the rules I obey them.
If you are a Catholic you will obey them too, if not that is your choice.
D
DallasTexas
Guest
Just FYI…
John Salza esquire has a new book out entitled "Boy Scouts infiltrated by the Masons."
I can’t make this stuff up…
scripturecatholic.com/
Under “New Feature.”
If I had not been so sarcastic with my previous comments about the boy scouts, I would almost want to take credit for the idea…
Just for the record I would like to introduce some future book titles for John Salza Esq.:
“Masonic influences in the “Double Secret” Militant Wing of the Salvation Army”
“Masonic influences in High School sports rituals”
“How the Masons control the FFA (Future Farmers of America) and 4-H clubs”
“Masonic infiltration of the National Honor Society”
“Subliminal masonic messages in high school band music”
“The Alliance between UFOs and Freemasons”
Please excuse the sarcastic remarks. All the above were written in jest… just wanted to lighten-up the thread a little.
Hope everyone has a nice evening.
John Salza esquire has a new book out entitled "Boy Scouts infiltrated by the Masons."
I can’t make this stuff up…
scripturecatholic.com/
Under “New Feature.”
If I had not been so sarcastic with my previous comments about the boy scouts, I would almost want to take credit for the idea…
Just for the record I would like to introduce some future book titles for John Salza Esq.:
“Masonic influences in the “Double Secret” Militant Wing of the Salvation Army”
“Masonic influences in High School sports rituals”
“How the Masons control the FFA (Future Farmers of America) and 4-H clubs”
“Masonic infiltration of the National Honor Society”
“Subliminal masonic messages in high school band music”
“The Alliance between UFOs and Freemasons”
Please excuse the sarcastic remarks. All the above were written in jest… just wanted to lighten-up the thread a little.
Hope everyone has a nice evening.
K
KC91
Guest
There is an interesting book discussing the issues of this topic named “Freemasonry and the Vatican a Struggle for Recognition” by Leon de Poncins
S
Shin
Guest
Freemasonry has been condemned by the Church from 1738 to today, which would be 271 years of condemnation.
So one is not just opposing one or two popes who might perhaps be mistaken in a disciplinary decision due to improper information. One is opposing the time tested decision of the Church.
The principles within Masonry are condemned however, not merely for 271 years but are for all time.
If Freemasonry someday reforms it is its job to demonstrate this to the Church before it can be reconciled, and to publicly repent its scandalous history, the damage it has done and its positions.
This history is so troubled and badly rooted, that this seems a completely unreal proposition though it is a simple duty, and truly it should simply dissolve itself and people should seek after other organizations founded on different principles with a clean new history.
But supposing this hypothetical and improbable public repentance, apology and reconciliation:
Until that time here are some of the sins one commits by promoting Freemasonry and Freemasonry as acceptable for a Catholic.
The sin of disobedience.
The sin of sacrilegious reception of Communion.
The sin of sacrilegious Confessions.
The sin of scandal.
The sin of leading others into sin.
These are all grave or mortal.
These are simply the basics, not considering the content of Freemasonry which is opposed to Catholicism. There is each individual sin of denial of doctrine and dogma to consider, as well as whatever secret acts are performed against the Church.
Truly it becomes difficult to count the sins, a great weight for any future penitent!
By the way is it not interesting how many groups, proud and occult (consider the titles and rituals) associate themselves with ‘the Knights Templar’ with junk Dan Brown style mysticism and fetishism when in fact they have no connection with the actual order and the real history? This is exactly the sort of thing typically involved with the demonic – a fascinating false story, full of things that stroke the ego and make a person feel puffed up with ‘secret knowledge’ and position.
Regarding what goes on currently in the masons:
Some of the content we cannot know due to it being a secret society – and from my understanding all secret societies generally are frowned on if not generally forbidden for Catholics and condemned by the Church – because the secrecy leads to immoral activities, being an occasion of sin.
But if anyone wants to recommend an expose book that is totally current besides the ones already mentioned, let’s hear it so we can know more of what we have to work with – though it is unnecessary to a large degree, to delve further.
So one is not just opposing one or two popes who might perhaps be mistaken in a disciplinary decision due to improper information. One is opposing the time tested decision of the Church.
The principles within Masonry are condemned however, not merely for 271 years but are for all time.
If Freemasonry someday reforms it is its job to demonstrate this to the Church before it can be reconciled, and to publicly repent its scandalous history, the damage it has done and its positions.
This history is so troubled and badly rooted, that this seems a completely unreal proposition though it is a simple duty, and truly it should simply dissolve itself and people should seek after other organizations founded on different principles with a clean new history.
But supposing this hypothetical and improbable public repentance, apology and reconciliation:
Until that time here are some of the sins one commits by promoting Freemasonry and Freemasonry as acceptable for a Catholic.
The sin of disobedience.
The sin of sacrilegious reception of Communion.
The sin of sacrilegious Confessions.
The sin of scandal.
The sin of leading others into sin.
These are all grave or mortal.
These are simply the basics, not considering the content of Freemasonry which is opposed to Catholicism. There is each individual sin of denial of doctrine and dogma to consider, as well as whatever secret acts are performed against the Church.
Truly it becomes difficult to count the sins, a great weight for any future penitent!
By the way is it not interesting how many groups, proud and occult (consider the titles and rituals) associate themselves with ‘the Knights Templar’ with junk Dan Brown style mysticism and fetishism when in fact they have no connection with the actual order and the real history? This is exactly the sort of thing typically involved with the demonic – a fascinating false story, full of things that stroke the ego and make a person feel puffed up with ‘secret knowledge’ and position.
Regarding what goes on currently in the masons:
Some of the content we cannot know due to it being a secret society – and from my understanding all secret societies generally are frowned on if not generally forbidden for Catholics and condemned by the Church – because the secrecy leads to immoral activities, being an occasion of sin.
But if anyone wants to recommend an expose book that is totally current besides the ones already mentioned, let’s hear it so we can know more of what we have to work with – though it is unnecessary to a large degree, to delve further.
A
afriendofGod
Guest
posted by Shin
If Freemasonry someday reforms it is its job to demonstrate this to the Church before it can be reconciled, and to publicly repent its scandalous history, the damage it has done and its positions.A. I fully agree with Shin. In its present state, Freemasonry is unredeemable, even if it changes its name! Jesus left no room for compromise: “Either you are for Me, or you are against: either you build, or you destroy.” People who join Freemasonry, do it at a grave peril to their souls and faith! They aren’t “builders”: they unbuild!
If Freemasonry someday reforms it is its job to demonstrate this to the Church before it can be reconciled, and to publicly repent its scandalous history, the damage it has done and its positions.A. I fully agree with Shin. In its present state, Freemasonry is unredeemable, even if it changes its name! Jesus left no room for compromise: “Either you are for Me, or you are against: either you build, or you destroy.” People who join Freemasonry, do it at a grave peril to their souls and faith! They aren’t “builders”: they unbuild!
M
MrS
Guest
A
afriendofGod
Guest
A. It’s precisely on the spiritual level where you are wrong! The Church, for 2,000 years now, has been standing up to evil in all its forms. Since Freemasonry was founded, much of this evil began operating under a hidden Freemasonry umbrella, and all on the hidden, invisible spiritual level! Let’s give a few examples how this might work. They are all examples from my own life. A school principal or even a church pastor is a known mason, and a strange things begin to happen in the school, or parish. First, the crosses disappear from the walls and the Bibles from the pews. Then "the adoration of then Blessed Sacrament is removed, found passe.Then the openly Christian students have the Name of God removed from their papers, and there are pictures of Virgin Mary removed from church walls. The pastor suddenly renounces priesthood, comes out of the closet, and founds his own “gay” church in Florida. But, it’s too late: the damage was done. Another example: an openly Catholic student is denied the right to write a graduate thesis on the meaning of Truth in literature. Subsequently, this same student is denied entrance to the School of Education, destroying his or her dream of being a teacher. The entire society, thousands of children, have been deprived of a chance to learn what is noble, moral, and true! Third example: a man or woman becomes a public official. Suddenly, he or she is surrounded with people pro-abortion, while the pro-lifers are systematically removed from their positions. These things are beginning to happen more and more in our society on the spiritual level. They occur surreptitiously, and it is difficult to prove if the people spreading evil silently are masons, or not. But some of them are, and it is a matter of fact that the few who are, get the highest positions in all areas of social endeavor. These few are enough to destroy the moral fabric of society, to lead the Nation away from Christian faith! But Christians must fight against evil - that’s the commandment they have been given - “have nothing to do with evil-doers”; “remove the evil person from your midst” (1 Jn 3, 8, 1 Jn 4, 1, 1 Cor 5, 13). This is why I and others have always said: the burden of proof is on Freemasonry: Are you one of those who foster “choice of abortion”? Are you the ones who keep removing crosses and God from schools? Do you stand against prayer in schools? Are you for “gay marriages”? Are you against the papacy? If you are, you will always be suspected of masonic allegiances, till the end of time … even if you aren’t a mason! Why? Because historical proofs abound that the masons were like that nei suoi confronti con la Chiesa Cattolica!
D
DallasTexas
Guest
afriendofGod,
Thank you for your posting.
Once again, and as always, thank you for your posting.
Thank you for your posting.
Are you referring to something that really happened or is all this made-up? Above you said that these were examples from your own life. If it really happened was it a school principal or a church pastor who was a known mason? I’m a little confused. This is a difficult to find too credible.
So… are you accusing the masons of doing this?
All the masons who are politician that I know of are pro-lifers not pro-choicers. I am sure there are some masons with opposing views on this subject–I just don’t know any of them. In contrast, many of the Catholics who are politicians that I know of are pro-choicers not pro-lifers.
I prefer to think that Freemasonry is innocent until proven guilty–not guilty until proven innocent. Nevertheless to answer your questions above:
- No.
- No and no. Removing the Crosses in schools… which schools? I hope Catholic schools are not taking down their crosses. I haven’t seen Crosses in public schools?? Take God out of schools? I don’t think you can take God out of schools.
- No. The masons strongly encourage prayer.
- No… I don’t think so. Political issues are not discussed in lodge–they are strongly discouraged.
- No.
Once again, and as always, thank you for your posting.
J
jemfinch
Guest
You’re misstating the quotation. If one knowingly and willingly does what the Church says not to do, you’re in a state of mortal sin and barring some extraordinary application of God’s grace, you will die, be judged, and go to hell.
Jeremy
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