Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

[philipl]

The general point is when someone has been hurt by Christians in the name of Christianity you don’t save their souls by berating them, you have to get them to trust you, to establish rapport before they will care what you have to say. If you start the conversation by talking like the people who hurt them, they will disregard what you have to say at best.

There is no overlap there, it’s like accusing anarchocommunists of being the real Nazis.

But very few Christians or Catholics hurt in the name of Christianity.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

The issue isn’t the beliefs, it is how they express them as many express it poorly at best. Prioritizing expressing how immoral gay sex is at the expense of everything else just repels people from the Church because gay people have heard it all before, sometimes right before being out on the street. What many haven’t seen is Christians who genuinely care about their welfare.

Correct. I’m actually in favor of evangelizing gay people, I just prefer to do it right and so their souls are actually saved instead of them being driven farther from God.

As Pope Francis said so eloquently, we are to accompany them pastorally. From all my years as a priest…that is just the perfect expression, actually. For so many situations.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

But very few Christians or Catholics hurt in the name of Christianity.

That is not what I have witnessed across the years. And well beyond the issue His Eminence was addressing.

 

[JosieN]

The issue isn’t the beliefs, it is how they express them as many express it poorly at best. Prioritizing expressing how immoral gay sex is at the expense of everything else just repels people from the Church because gay people have heard it all before, sometimes right before being out on the street. What many haven’t seen is Christians who genuinely care about their welfare.

Correct. I’m actually in favor of evangelizing gay people, I just prefer to do it right and so their souls are actually saved instead of them being driven farther from God.

You appear to be accusing Christians once again for bad behavior towards gays. This time it is for Christians expressing themselves badly to gay people. You say Christians express to them how immoral gay sex is and repel them away, sometimes right before they go into the streets, as though this was the cause and the reason for them to go to the streets. Where do you get this stuff from? The Christians I know would never do anything like that.

The way some people do not support Catholic teachings, morals and values on this forum is puzzling to me, I didn’t expect these types of negative comments to come from people I thought would share my beliefs.

 

[Brendan]

Correct. I’m actually in favor of evangelizing gay people, I just prefer to do it right and so their souls are actually saved instead of them being driven farther from God.

So what is the right way?

 

[OraLabora]

So what is the right way?

“Hi, welcome to our parish. Are you new in the area? Please stay after Mass, we have tea, coffee and biscuits, we’d love to get to know both of you. Have you met Father yet? Lovely priest, great teacher, do take the time to get to know him.”

Or something like that.

Or it could be, if a gay acquaintance is in distress: “why don’t you go talk to one of the monks at the abbey? They are great listeners and won’t judge you but will give you great and gentle guidance and insights and are always extremely hospitable”.

Or it could simply be: listening and being available to listen. Without moralizing. Just acknowledge that you heard. And if the moment seems right, direct them to a resource in the Church that can help, such as an abbey. We have gay oblates. If we do, it is because the monks are very kind and willing to accompany them gently on their spiritual journey. Moreover they accept that not everyone will be at the same point of understanding at the same time. As monastics, they accept that growth in holiness is a life-long process. It is after all one of the important elements of monastic life and expressed through their vow of conversatio morum.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

But very few Christians or Catholics hurt in the name of Christianity.

Not many deliberately try to hurt people in the name of Christianity, but then again, Pat Robertson and the WBC seem to genuinely believe they are doing the right things.

As Pope Francis said so eloquently, we are to accompany them pastorally. From all my years as a priest…that is just the perfect expression, actually. For so many situations.

Perfect indeed, now, how do the laity follow it?

You appear to be accusing Christians once again for bad behavior towards gays. This time it is for Christians expressing themselves badly to gay people. You say Christians express to them how immoral gay sex is and repel them away, sometimes right before they go into the streets, as though this was the cause and the reason for them to go to the streets. Where do you get this stuff from? The Christians I know would never do anything like that.

The way some people do not support Catholic teachings, morals and values on this forum is puzzling to me, I didn’t expect these types of negative comments to come from people I thought would share my beliefs.

I have known plenty of LGBT people who were kicked out or disowned by Christian parents, some Catholic. How many gay people do you know well?

I do support everything the Church requires me to believe, I just don’t believe we should keep trying tactics that fail, fail, and fail again at converting people.

So what is the right way?

Often the right way is to befriend them, provide a good example and show them that not all Christians or Catholics are hatemongerers. After you have establish a rapport with them then it becomes possible to evangelize them.

 

[Brendan]

Often the right way is to befriend them, provide a good example and show them that not all Christians or Catholics are hatemongerers. After you have establish a rapport with them then it becomes possible to evangelize them.

What if their definition of ‘hatemonger’ includes those who think that homosexuality is a moral disorder, one that requires celibacy?

By their definition, the whole doctrine of the Church is hate.

 

[MaryT777]

“Hi, welcome to our parish. Are you new in the area? Please stay after Mass, we have tea, coffee and biscuits, we’d love to get to know both of you. Have you met Father yet? Lovely priest, great teacher, do take the time to get to know him.”

Or something like that.

Or it could be, if a gay acquaintance is in distress: “why don’t you go talk to one of the monks at the abbey? They are great listeners and won’t judge you but will give you great and gentle guidance and insights and are always extremely hospitable”.

Or it could simply be: listening and being available to listen. Without moralizing. Just acknowledge that you heard. And if the moment seems right, direct them to a resource in the Church that can help, such as an abbey. We have gay oblates. If we do, it is because the monks are very kind and willing to accompany them gently on their spiritual journey. Moreover they accept that not everyone will be at the same point of understanding at the same time. As monastics, they accept that growth in holiness is a life-long process. It is after all one of the important elements of monastic life and expressed through their vow of conversatio morum.

What a well said and eloquent post.

 

[OraLabora]

What if their definition of ‘hatemonger’ includes those who think that homosexuality is a moral disorder, one that requires celibacy?

By their definition, the whole doctrine of the Church is hate.

So how would you go about attracting to the Church a homosexual seeking God, and how would you impart the teaching of the Church on the subject? And how would you deal with the homosexual that strives to chastity and fails beyond recommending frequent confession?

I would also note that the Church doesn’t use the term “moral disorder” but “intrinsically disordered” and goes on to note that “Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.” Thus the Church leaves the door open, scientifically, on whether it is or not a moral disorder; saying it is a moral disorder implies a person has a choice on whether or not to have these attractions and so far the empirical evidence is that they do not. The moral choice is not the attractions, but what to do with them.

I don’t think that treating them as modern-day lepers however, will result in too many conversions.

 

[graciew]

What if their definition of ‘hatemonger’ includes those who think that homosexuality is a moral disorder, one that requires celibacy?

By their definition, the whole doctrine of the Church is hate.

Dialogue,Brendan.
When the time comes and is appropriate, sit down and talk.
And it is no cliché. It is partly what Francis refers to as a culture of encounter. And I do believe in it heartfeltedly.
We have so many interesting and joyful things to talk about too!
One persón,one conflict at a time. Building trust,in good faith.

 

[OraLabora]

Dialogue

Bingo! The word that sums it up best.

 

[JosieN]

Dialogue,Brendan.
When the time comes and is appropriate, sit down and talk.
And it is no cliché. It is partly what Francis refers to as a culture of encounter. And I do believe in it heartfeltedly.
We have so many interesting and joyful things to talk about too!
One persón,one conflict at a time. Building trust,in good faith.

I would suggest a good way to do this would be to have a group meeting in the Parish Hall and invite gay people. Tell them you just want to talk to them, advertise it as what you called a “sit down and talk”. See who comes. Then have a priest speak with them, and those willing to give up their lifestyle would be welcomed back into the Church. They would go to confession, give up their gay relationships, be able to receive the Holy Eucharist, attend Church etc. The whole community could get involved with the welcoming. You could sing songs, pray with them, become friends etc. What do you think?

I believe it would be best this way, as there would be less confusion as to whether their lifestyle has now become acceptable by the Church. With the Pope’s recent comments being interpreted incorrectly, many in the media, and elsewhere are under the impression the Church has changed its views on homosexuality. I would like to hear him say they are welcomed in the Church, but they must give up their lifestyle, as it goes against Church teaching.

After your encounters with them, will they give up their lifestyle and live chaste lives? Will they go to confession before receiving the Holy Eucharist? Will they stop having sex with their gay partners? With God’s help it is possible. If your idea is successful, I hope it becomes acceptable in other parishes so that more conversions will happen. What do you think?

 

[graciew]

I would suggest a good way to do this would be to have a group meeting in the Parish Hall and invite gay people. Tell them you just want to talk to them, advertise it as what you called a “sit down and talk”. See who comes. Then have a priest speak with them, and those willing to give up their lifestyle would be welcomed back into the Church. They would go to confession, give up their gay relationships, be able to receive the Holy Eucharist, attend Church etc. The whole community could get involved with the welcoming. You could sing songs, pray with them, become friends etc. What do you think?

I believe it would be best this way, as there would be less confusion as to whether their lifestyle has now become acceptable by the Church. With the Pope’s recent comments being interpreted incorrectly, many in the media, and elsewhere are under the impression the Church has changed its views on homosexuality. I would like to hear him say they are welcomed in the Church, but they must give up their lifestyle, as it goes against Church teaching.

After your encounters with them, will they give up their lifestyle and live chaste lives? Will they go to confession before receiving the Holy Eucharist? Will they stop having sex with their gay partners? Maybe your idea would catch on and many conversions will happen.

I am in the car right now and typing on cobble stone is …commmpliicatedddddd …but I would be more than glad to share later.

 

[JosieN]

I am in the car right now and typing on cobble stone is …commmpliicatedddddd …but I would be more than glad to share later.

If gay people are hurting and are looking for healing, Jesus Christ is the answer. No one wants their pain to continue. If their souls are lost, they need Christ and His forgiveness as we all do. This is the Christian way. We do not wish to see them on the streets. But they must give up their sinful lifestyle and sin no more, as this is what Jesus Christ taught.

 

[OraLabora]

If gay people are hurting and are looking for healing, Jesus Christ is the answer. No one wants their pain to continue. If their souls are lost, they need Christ and His forgiveness as we all do. This is the Christian way. We do not wish to see them on the streets. But they must give up their sinful lifestyle and sin no more, as this is what Jesus Christ taught.

Do you “sin no more”? If not, then why are you still in the Church?

 

[JosieN]

Do you “sin no more”? If not, then why are you still in the Church?

I try my best not too. I think that is what Jesus wants us to do. I am am still in the Church because I accept the Churches teachings and abide by them. Do you?

 

[J_Peterson]

I would suggest treating gay people exactly like you would anybody else. One of the problems is that gay people are treated as outsiders and “the other”. I’m not sure if people realize but there are practicing gay Catholics that don’t need to be evangelized. Some are celibate and some aren’t, it’s really none of our business. They are still Catholics just like me and you with absolutely no difference.

This focus on sin management is a faith and hope killer.

 

[JosieN]

I would suggest treating gay people exactly like you would anybody else. One of the problems is that gay people are treated as outsiders and “the other”. I’m not sure if people realize but there are practicing gay Catholics that don’t need to be evangelized. Some are celibate and some aren’t, it’s really none of our business. They are still Catholics just like me and you with absolutely no difference.

This focus on sin management is a faith and hope killer.

A poster suggested we talk to them and offer them help. Some are committing suicide and go into the streets for sex she said. So I replied to her. What is your definition of a practicing Catholic? Can you be a practicing Catholic and live in mortal sin and receive the Holy Eucharist at Mass? They would be in mortal sin if they were not celibate. I guess it depends on your definition of a practicing Catholic.

 

[OraLabora]

Do you?

I accept what the Church teaches. I try my best to live by that. As do many gays including some who are oblates of our monastery and with whom I am very good friends and who have their own struggles with sin.

As I’m sure you’re well aware we all fall and sin sometimes. Which is why I agree with:

I would suggest treating gay people exactly like you would anybody else. One of the problems is that gay people are treated as outsiders and “the other”. I’m not sure if people realize but there are practicing gay Catholics that don’t need to be evangelized. Some are celibate and some aren’t, it’s really none of our business. They are still Catholics just like me and you with absolutely no difference.

This focus on sin management is a faith and hope killer.

That is, we should treat gays, both those inside and outside the Church, just as we would like to be treated ourselves.