Catholic Charismatic Spiritual Talk and Sharing

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beng- I have read your work before on other threads - you keep repeating yourself over and over with no charity towards those that are sharing -

I never mentioned slain in the spirit

I clearly showed scripture for being baptized in the spirit
 
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gtrenewed:
beng- I have read your work before on other threads - you keep repeating yourself over and over with no charity towards those that are sharing -

I never mentioned slain in the spirit

I clearly showed scripture for being baptized in the spirit
It was not directed at you

And I refer to the baptized in the spirit as believe by Charismatics. which is erroneous.

And is not agreeing with Charismaticism = uncharitable?

But I do like to comment on the danger of Charismaticism. It’s dangeorus. It has the spirit of Protestantism (which is heretical). And it’s inconsistent with the constant teaching of the Church.

But it does consistent with the cultural trend of “warm fuzzy feeling” and “emotional outburst” that’s prevalent in North America especially in young people.
 
beng - it is not in disagreeing where the charity fails but in not acknowledging the points one makes and addressing them. In the past you kept saying the same thing over and over which if in person would be grating and uncharitable.

Since I defined the Baptism in the Holy Spirit by what scripture says in the book of Acts, as promised by Jesus - I am curious how you say we define it since you say our definition is not Christian?

And, how do you define what is presented in scripture as being baptized in the Spirit?
 
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gtrenewed:
beng - it is not in disagreeing where the charity fails but in not acknowledging the points one makes and addressing them. In the past you kept saying the same thing over and over which if in person would be grating and uncharitable.
If I said something repeatedly that owuld be because:
  1. It’s to a different person
  2. The person who was adressed negate/avoid the statement.
Since I defined the Baptism in the Holy Spirit by what scripture says in the book of Acts, as promised by Jesus - I am curious how you say we define it since you say our definition is not Christian?
Who are baptized by the Holy Spirit in the Charismatics? Are these person already baptized by the Holy Spirit?

If somehow a person who is already baptized get baptized by the Holy Spirit then it’s erroneous.
And, how do you define what is presented in scripture as being baptized in the Spirit?
The same baptism as baptism with water and blood. Which can not be repeated. Do look atb the CCC for definition.
 
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beng:
I shall restraint my self… yet…:
  1. Slain in the spirit is unbiblical and a Protestant invention
  2. Baptism of the Holy Spirit as believed by Charismaticist are contrary to the Christian faith.
Beng,
Why are you so uncharitable? Why are you so afraid of God given emotion? And why have you come to this thread?..I certainly hope it’s not to hijack it…cause it’s not gonna happen!!!
Annunciata:mad:
 
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Annunciata:
Beng,
Why are you so uncharitable? Why are you so afraid of God given emotion? And why have you come to this thread?..I certainly hope it’s not to hijack it…cause it’s not gonna happen!!!
Annunciata:mad:
Because I really think that Charismaticism is wrong an an abuse. At least nowadays Charismaticism not the original Charismaticism of St Franciss, St Theresa Avilla.

It’s trying to imbued protestantism element into the holy tradition of the Catholic Church. Element that is characterize by emotion and the theology of warm fuzzy feeling. Those two elements are what attract most people.

I hope Charismatics will be done for and people realize the error.
 
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beng:
Because I really think that Charismaticism is wrong an an abuse. At least nowadays Charismaticism not the original Charismaticism of St Franciss, St Theresa Avilla.

It’s trying to imbued protestantism element into the holy tradition of the Catholic Church. Element that is characterize by emotion and the theology of warm fuzzy feeling. Those two elements are what attract most people.

I hope Charismatics will be done for and people realize the error.
Beng,
did you ever hear the expression “you won’t gather honey by tipping over the beehive?” God Bless and I’ll pray that YOU will see the light someday. Annunciata:gopray:
 
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Annunciata:
Beng,
did you ever hear the expression “you won’t gather honey by tipping over the beehive?” God Bless and I’ll pray that YOU will see the light someday. Annunciata:gopray:
I have been to many Charismatic groups and personally witness these people. I feel sorry for them. If only they realize the richness of tradition in the Church they will never subject themselves to “emotion manipulation”.
 
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beng:
I shall restraint my self… yet…:
  1. Slain in the spirit is unbiblical and a Protestant invention
  2. Baptism of the Holy Spirit as believed by Charismaticist are contrary to the Christian faith.
Beng,

Your errineous claims are refuted by the preached to the Papal household as I quoted in the other thread,

SuZ
 
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Mysty101:
Beng,

Your errineous claims are refuted by the preached to the Papal household as I quoted in the other thread,

SuZ
Read the thread again.

Here’s what I found out about the Papal Household:

beng said:
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!

Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM, CAP has lost any credibility.

Highlights:
  1. He got a ticket for an INTERDENOMINATIONAL gathering in Kansas where he caught his charismaticism fever
  2. He said that SOMEONE (we don’t know whether he’s Catholic or not) spoke prophetic words, which he describe as “authoritative messages spoken in the name of God.” Wow, even private revelation such as the approved Fatima doen’t have any authoritative power whatsoever.
  3. "This is a prophecy for the future of the church. One day the church shall be reunited in one single visible body. This is how it will happen; through all of us repenting, praying and weeping together, under the I,ordship of Christ." But can you imagine, I was still very critical and said to myself: “This is very beautiful. No doubt this comes from the Lord, but I cannot accept it.” I was unprepared to understand the expressions of other Christian denominations, especially Pentecostals." …
After this decision everything went smoothly, even though I resisted with all my strength. You must realize that I did my best. There was a moment during the prayer meeting when we were in the chapel praying, and I remember saying to myself: “I am a son of St. Francis of Assisi. I have a beautiful spirituality. What am I looking for among these lay brothers?” At that moment a lady opened her Bible and started reading. It was the passage where John the Baptist said to the Pharisees: “Don’t say in your hearts, We are sons of Abraham, we are sons of Abraham.”’

I assure you, this is the way the Holy Spirit builds when he is present in a gathering. He speaks in a simple but very, very strong way. So I stood up (speaking Italian because I did not know any English then) and everybody seemed to understand my Italian. I said: “Lord, I don’t want to say any longer that I am a son of St. Francis of Assisi. I ask you to make me a true son of St. Francis of Assisi. Baptize me with your Holy Spirit.” Then they prayed over me. I recall somebody saying: “Choose Jesus as Lord of your life.”

'nuff said.
 
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beng:
I have been to many Charismatic groups and personally witness these people. I feel sorry for them. If only they realize the richness of tradition in the Church they will never subject themselves to “emotion manipulation”.
Yes there have been abuses in some groups, I’ll be the first to admit that…experienced that firsthand…long story. There are however, some very mature groups who monitor their groups carefully. I have said this before and I will say it again, if I could find a mature Charismatic Prayer Group in my area I would probably attend as I do miss that wonderful sharing of prayer and praise. God Bless, Annunciata:)
p.s. and I also love my "Mornings of Recollection at Opus Dei.
 
Will everyone please stop replying to Beng, so we can continue our discussions

SuZ
 
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Mysty101:
Will everyone please stop replying to Beng, so we can continue our discussions

SuZ
I will reply to every charismatic related topic tho.
 
Beng you said: 1.“Who are baptized by the Holy Spirit in the Charismatics? Are these person already baptized by the Holy Spirit?” and 2.“If somehow a person who is already baptized get baptized by the Holy Spirit then it’s erroneous.” and 3.“The same baptism as baptism with water and blood. Which can not be repeated. Do look atb the CCC for definition.”

Jesus said in Acts1:5 “for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” The apostles had already received the Spirit when Jesus blew on them and then He said you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit and we all know that Pentecost was not a water baptism.

Acts 8:15,16 “who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized(in water) in the name of the Lord Jesus”

Acts 11:16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’”

Acts 19:5,6 “When they heard this, they were baptized (in water) in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”

Beng - it is clear that water baptism and being Baptized in the Holy Spirit are two different, separate experiences and the term Baptized in the Holy Spirit is used by Jesus and so is not erroneous. The CCC is expressing water baptism, for in confimation the Holy Spirit is given as well for the completion of water baptism and release of the gifts, ccc1299. Why it was changed from baptism with the Holy Spirit to confirmation I do not know yet but I am researching it; however, I know form scripture that it is real.

Your arguements are selective. What we experience is the release of the scriptural Holy Spirit that was not taught and thus not released during confirmation. That is why it is open to everyone but if you don’t exert your will, in faith, then it will not happen. It happens for us because we see it in scripture, act in faith to receive it, and the Holy Spirit complies. Acts 19:2 “…Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? And they said to him, No we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit” and then they went on to receive after Paul taught them.

So we call it being baptized in the Holy Spirit because that is what Jesus called it and it was separate from water baptism but completed the initiation into discipleship.
 
Beng,

Who died and made you God? Because it sure wasn’t Jesus. I do not identify myself as a Charismatic but it was very nice for once to partake in a thread that didn’t involve flaming of your type.

I’m sorry if you disagree with the movement, but obviously you are acting not as a concerned Christian, but rather by your own will irregardless of the teachings of Christ, the Holy Father, or the Bible.

Please take youself to a Bible study through your parish and engross yourself in that rather than the negativity you are choosing to spread here. Life is too short to spend flaming threads on message boards.

I am pro life. I think you should have one. I just think you should take yours somewhere more positive and in cohesion with the teachings especially referencing the love of Christ.

God bless and don’t let the door hitcha. Come on back if you can get out of the black cloud you’re in. We’d all be happy to meet you in the true spirit of Christ.
 
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beng:
I will reply to every charismatic related topic tho.
In the love of Jesus Christ why are you tearing up the body of Christ. That is what you are doing and that saddens me and my Lord…No one is forcing you to come to this topic.We are here to build up each other not tear down the body of Christ. Even if you think you are right ,you are wrong in the way you are speaking to your brothers and sisters. You need to repent as I do for the way we are treating each other.Are we walking in the Love of Jesus Christ.? That is what we need to ask ourselves.P/s Please forgive me for the times I have been uncharitable towards you. I try but there are times I fail. God Bless you Beng.
 
Beng
As you can see,if you read my first post, this is not a thread for debate. I would request that you stop posting discussions to these folks that are critical of the Charismatic Renewal. There are other threads open to that or you can start your own thread for argument and debate.

Once again, this thread IS NOT for debate but a placed where folks can come and share their experiences or simply ask questions or give out good information.

Thanks for respecting our desires for a peaceful thread.
 
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gtrenewed:
Jesus said in Acts1:5 “for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” The apostles had already received the Spirit when Jesus blew on them and then He said you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit and we all know that Pentecost was not a water baptism.
I acknowledge baptism by the Holy Spirit. The problem lies when a person need TWO baptism. As if the Baptism by water does not confers the grace of baptism like the baptism of the spirit.

When the Apostle was breathed by the Holy Spirit they we’re not baptized. So it would be proper for them to be sacramentally baptized at Pentacost.
Acts 8:15,16 “who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized(in water) in the name of the Lord Jesus”
These people (Samarian) received non sacramental Baptism. Presumably by follower of John the Baptist. Thus it’s necesary for them to have the sacramental baptism.
Acts 11:16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’”
Yes. Even the CCC stated that John Baptism is not the sacramental Baptism.
Acts 19:5,6 “When they heard this, they were baptized (in water) in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”
Look at verse 4. These people only received John the Baptist’s baptism not the sacramental baptism.
Beng - it is clear that water baptism and being Baptized in the Holy Spirit are two different, separate experiences and the term Baptized in the Holy Spirit is used by Jesus and so is not erroneous.
As I have shown, all of the people who received the baptism of the spirit are people who have not received sacramental baptism. Thus, if you have received the sacramental baptism (by water, blood or desire) and you still insist on some Baptism by spirit, then you’re being a heretics by denying the efficacy of the sacraments.
The CCC is expressing water baptism, for in confimation the Holy Spirit is given as well for the completion of water baptism and release of the gifts, ccc1299. Why it was changed from baptism with the Holy Spirit to confirmation I do not know yet but I am researching it; however, I know form scripture that it is real.
Oh dear lord. One can see how erroneous your believe is. There was never a seperation between the water baptism (not the repentance one done by John the Baptist and his follower) and the baptism by fire which happenned at Pentacost. Both confers sacramental grace. That is why when you got either one it’s not necessary to got the other.

Yet some people try to feel special by trying to get some fake baptism by spirit.

cont below
 
Your arguements are selective. What we experience is the release of the scriptural Holy Spirit that was not taught and thus not released during confirmation. That is why it is open to everyone but if you don’t exert your will, in faith, then it will not happen. It happens for us because we see it in scripture, act in faith to receive it, and the Holy Spirit complies. Acts 19:2 “…Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? And they said to him, No we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit” and then they went on to receive after Paul taught them.

So we call it being baptized in the Holy Spirit because that is what Jesus called it and it was separate from water baptism but completed the initiation into discipleship.
Read what Fr William Most said about people who erroneously think that we somehow need to “activate” the Holy Spirit:

From Fr William G. Most’s Errors in Charismatic



In a Catholic Team Manual, Finding New Life in the Spirit, p.25 the** candidate is instructed to say, after some preparation: “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.”

This is contrary to Vatican II. In On the Church §12 the Council distinguishes ordinary and extraordinary charisms: “The extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly asked for, nor should the fruits of apostolic works be presumptuously expected from them; but the judgment of their genuine character and the ordered exercise of them pertains to those who preside in the Church…”**


Some charismatics claim what they have is merely the activation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which does not happen in the usual Catholic. They call this Baptism in the Spirit. This too is a great error. All receive these Gifts along with sanctifying grace, and they have an increase at Confirmation and other times. But normally they do not show clear and overt effects until one is far advanced in the spiritual life - earlier, there may be latent effects. Still further, the effects of these Gifts are not the miraculous phenomena - that would be to confuse the sanctifying and the charismatic categories. Some also tend to be fundamentalistic in understanding Scripture.

Many charismatics today are trying to say all Catholics must be charismatic,** that “baptism in the spirit” was routine in the Patristic age**. We find this clearly in a booklet, Fanning the Flame, by Kilian Mc Donnell (Liturgical Press,1991). He cites a few patristic texts to try to show these phenomena were routine in the patristic age. But the texts given are few, just three are given: Fairly clear are those of Tertullian, St. Hilary, St. Cyril of Jerusalem. But the booklet admits on p.18 that: “Both Basil of Caesarea… and Gregory Nazianzus… situate the prophetic charisms within the Christian initiation, though they are more reserved in their regard than Paul.” No quotes are given. Then we see a remarkable admission on St. John Chrysostom, quoted on the same page, “Chrysostom complained, however ‘the charisms are long gone.’” St. Augustine, in City of God (21.5), has to argue strongly that miracles are possible, against those in his day who denied the possibility. He says that if they want to say the Apostles converted the world without any miracles - that would be a great miracle. If there were miraculous gifts commonly around, Augustine would have merely pointed to them. But he did not.

cont below
 
Still further, historically. The miraculous gifts were common in Paul’s day, but at least by the middle of the next century became scarce in the mainline Church, but common in heretical groups. The present movement started in 1901 among Protestants. By 1925 there were about 38 denominations in the U.S. alone. Some decades later, in 1966. some Catholics, precisely by contact with the Protestants, asked that the Protestants lay hands on them, to receive tongues - for tongues were supposed to be the sign that one had been baptized in the Spirit.
 
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