Catholic Position on the Masonic Lodge

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jamesclaude:
Maybe Kof C Supreme doesn’t really care if they are Masons.
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Yes, they actually do. I just checked with Supreme Membership Dept. Official word is that membership in freemasonry is grounds for dismissal from the order. No exceptions.
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jamesclaude:
Bigotry and fear are poor masters, Sir Knight.
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That is the same argument put forth by pro-abortionists. Because those of us right wing, conservative, Catholic, Christian, pro-life extremists have a viewpoint based on values that don’t change with popular opinon, we are bigots, closeminded, etc. I say, “sticks and stones…”

However, James I do wish to thank you for the courtesy of addressing me as “Sir Knight.” As a Fourth Degree Knight, it is the appropriate protocol. Peace.

What is the correct title for your level of masonry?
 
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flameburns623:
Lo these many years hence–oh somewhere between 1994 and 1996–the Bethalto, Illinois Knights of Columbus Hall loaned out their facilities to the Bethalto Masonic Lodge. And posted on the K of C signboard, these fearsome words:

WELCOME BROTHER MASONS!

I also know of members of the Knights who are simultaneously Freemasons. I do not think this happens mainly because most of these folks are encouraging defiance or acting defiantly–I think that, despite the best efforts of the more conservative elements within the ranks of Catholicism, most people living in the real world think that whatever differences might once have existed between Freemaonry and Catholicism have been put behind both bodies, (…
I am not denying that the Church does in fact officially forbid such membership, and I am NOT recommending that people join the Lodge as some sort of protest against what I believe is the stubborn wrong-headedness of the Catholic church to lift this interdict against the Lodge. What I am saying is that most folks who join have done so in in good faith and in the sincere belief that it is NOT contradictory to their faith. Often based upon the trusted word of people they think knowlegeable of the facts. In other cases it is because reputable Catholic organizations such as the K of C OFTEN co-sponsor events with the Lodge and/or share facilities
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There is a fundamental principle being ignored here, and that is that EVERY knight takes an oath to uphold and DEFEND the Church AND ALL of it’s teachings.

As a member of the KC, ANYONE who flaunts or ignores official Church teaching is disgraced and forfeits his membership. (not to mention as my brother knight points out, excommunicated from the Church)

It’s not a matter of bigotry or being unaware of the facts. These
‘reputable’ Catholic organizations, by their refusal to abide by Church rules are in fact not reputable at all.

IF these airheads persist in their associations, they do so out of pure ignorance. IF they do so knowing the Church’s stand on FM then, as far as the rest of KofC is concerned they are no longer members.

wc
 
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flameburns623:
Lo these many years hence–oh somewhere between 1994 and 1996–the Bethalto, Illinois Knights of Columbus Hall loaned out their facilities to the Bethalto Masonic Lodge. And posted on the K of C signboard, these fearsome words:

WELCOME BROTHER MASONS!

I also know of members of the Knights who are simultaneously Freemasons.
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Council 4688 - BETHALTO
BETHALTO, IL 62010 is this the council that you are talking about? I sent an e-mail with your post included to the Il. State Deputy.

What council do the Knights that you know belong that allows them to be freemasons as well?
 
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friendofgod:
wow forbidden, think again since Vatican II…the Knights of Columbus allow Masons to join…hmmm what is going on here…oh by the way , yes Vatican II wiped Catholic history of the masons away and ushered them in…so if someone reads you any Papal decree prior to Vatican II then just silence them with authority…were all the same now, there is room at the table for everyone…
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This is total misinformation perhaps this is the one of the reasons the person is banned.
 
This is still going on? It is very simple. Catholics cannot join the Masons. If they do they are outside full communion of the Church and cannot receive the sacraments. End of story.
 
GoodKnight1443 said:
Council 4688 - BETHALTO
BETHALTO, IL 62010 is this the council that you are talking about? I sent an e-mail with your post included to the Il. State Deputy.
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The same–at least I assume so. You have the Bethalto ZIP code correct, anyhow. I lived in apartments next to (or behind, however you would perceive it) the K of C hall and passed it several times while the message I noted earlier was displayed. I was in the process of being raised within Freemasonry at the time so the sign caught my eye. Don’t know what the function was, been way too long. Incidentally–this K of C hall rents itself out rather regularly for various events, and it is as appropriate to address Freemasons collectively as ‘Brother Masons’ (they are brothers one to another, not necessarily brothers of the K of C) as it is to address individual Knights of Columbus as ‘Sir Knight’. Despite my mock melodramatic tone in the previous post, there really is nothing ominous in the message that appeared on the sign. I do think that local Masons perceived this as one sign of lessening tensions between the Catholic Church and the Lodge.
What council do the Knights that you know belong that allows them to be freemasons as well?
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I haven’t the foggiest. I don’t know that the ‘council’ of the K of C officially allows them to belong at all–they may simply be lax and uninterested, as in ‘don’t ask/don’t tell’. I know only that Brother Masons who self-identify themselves as being simulataneously Roman Catholic indicate that their priest told them he felt the Church had nothing to say on the subject and that they were free to do as they pleased. That’s a close paraphrase of one Catholic’s comments to me–it is poor form to get into great detail with one another during Lodge functions and I deemed it not my concern to correct someone else on their own religion. One of the Freemasons I know to also be a K of C member happens to be in a supervisory capacity over me. He saw my ring, mentioned that he is also a Mason and enumerated several other orgs he belonged to, including the K of C. A couple of Brother Masons in the Lodge to which I was raised were reputedly Knights ( as well as Optimists, Elks and Moose Lodge members). Whether any of these folks were lapsed Knights, inactive Catholics or whatever I don’t know–we don’t discuss religion in-Lodge, nor is it something I chat casually about with my superiors at work. It came up as small talk and was dropped almost as quickly.
 
The official word from K of C Supreme Council via the IL. State Deputy is:

“Can a Mason be a member of the Knights of Columbus?” the answer is No. As a Knight of Columbus you take a pledge to support the teaching of the Catholic Church and to be loyal to the Pope. This is contradictory to pledges taken by Masons.

ANY State Deputy would give that answer as should any District Deputy, Grand Knight or any K of C officer for that matter.
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flameburns623:
I know to also be a K of C member happens to be in a supervisory capacity over me. He saw my ring, mentioned that he is also a Mason and enumerated several other orgs he belonged to, including the K of C. A couple of Brother Masons in the Lodge to which I was raised were reputedly Knights ( as well as Optimists, Elks and Moose Lodge members).
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You friend/supervisor that you mention above can no longer be a Knight inactive or otherwise if he is pledged to the masons.

FYI
“Sir Knight” is for 4th degree Knights only. All others are "Brother Knights.

Peace.
 
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GoodKnight1443:
. . . . . . You friend/supervisor that you mention above can no longer be a Knight inactive or otherwise if he is pledged to the masons.
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It is not my job to inform Brother Masons of their religious obligations, and since I have demitted I would seldom have opportunity to do so. In any case my supervisor would likely belong to Lodges and Chapters in Missouri. (I should mention that I live in an Illinois suburb of St. Louis Missouri, and work in Missouri–I’ve mentioned this before elsewhere but didn’t think it germaine to the topic at hand). I of course do not question that there is, somewhere, a formal policy forbidding Knights to belong to the Lodge. In practice, I suspect, in the real world where people work and strive to muddle through as best they can and get along with as many folk as they can within their personal spheres–this stuff gets ignored, obscured, and just simply doesn’t get communicated. Folks who are consumed by theology, church activities, apologetics, and so forth are usually utterly puzzled and/or frustrated by this fact. But real people, living inside of reality, blow a lot of this stuff off. The same way that most Internet geeks blow off learning about automotive mechanics, excercise, diet, or Boolean Algebra (or is is ‘Boolean Geometry’?). Real priests, serving such real people, tend not to sweat a lot of the small stuff: why bug folks about joining a club, when you listen every week to folks who beat their spouses or cheat on them; do drugs; are drinking themselves dead as quickly as it is in their power so to do; or otherwise commit various high crimes and misdemeanors, just generally spending life on the razor’s edge of Hades?

It is perfectly good and proper to cite the rules that Catholics ought to live by on a forum intended to give accurate information about the Catholic Church. I hope I have made it clear–I only say it about every other time that I post to this thread–I am not recommending that Catholics disregard their Church teachings on this subject, willfully or because they simply lack the personal resources to stay abreast of “what’s changed, what hasn’t changed” since Vatican II. I have simply responded, in my past several posts, to what I have actually observed. You are wanting to beat into the ground the rules about what actually ought to happen. I think the issue, like the Wicked Witch of the Oz movie, is really very truly dead. We aren’t really disagreeing, just boring one another with superfluous clarifications.
FYI
“Sir Knight” is for 4th degree Knights only. All others are "Brother Knights.

Peace.
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Thanks! I would want to be polite enough to use the appropriate title, even if you lack the courtesy to capitalize the word ‘Mason’. Perhaps you simply committed a typo . . . . . .
 
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flameburns623:
It is not my job to inform Brother Masons of their religious obligations,
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Did not expect you to do so. Just stating fact. Sadly the men in question are misinformed.
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flameburns623:
I suspect, in the real world where people work and strive to muddle through as best they can and get along with as many folk as they can within their personal spheres–this stuff gets ignored, obscured, and just simply doesn’t get communicated.
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Not exactly. It is not uncommon for The Knights to dissmiss members who demonstrate that they have broken their oath to uphold the law of the church. e.g. politicians who are publicly pro-abortion. The process is conducted with tact and dignity and it is not sensationalized.

Approximately 18 months ago, a man was participating in a 1st degree ceremony at the Council where I belong. The officers became aware that he was a Mason, (he was asked and admitted the fact) he was then asked to leave and denied membership. He was also told that if he chose to demit his membership in freemasonry he could reapply. He wasn’t happy but understood that it was not personal. There are active investigations into those who are attempting to maintain dual membership.
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flameburns623:
Real priests, serving such real people, tend not to sweat a lot of the small stuff: why bug folks about joining a club, when you listen every week to folks who beat their spouses or cheat on them; do drugs; are drinking themselves dead as quickly as it is in their power so to do; or otherwise commit various high crimes and misdemeanors, just generally spending life on the razor’s edge of Hades?
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I understand your perspective but I wouldn’t include an act that warrants excommunication as “small stuff.” The Vatican doesn’t excommunicate members of the Church for small stuff. Joining that “club” is like joining a pro-abortion group.
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flameburns623:
We aren’t really disagreeing, just boring one another with superfluous clarifications.
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You are correct sir. :whacky:
 
I guess the only part of your last post I would want to respond to is:
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GoodKnight1443:
I understand your perspective but I wouldn’t include an act that warrants excommunication as “small stuff.” The Vatican doesn’t excommunicate members of the Church for small stuff. Joining that “club” is like joining a pro-abortion group.
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Abortion being inately wicked of itself, joining an advocacy group for abortion would be sinful as well. There is nothing inately wicked in joining a fraternal organization or else Moose Lodge members, Elks, Eagles, American Legioners, and Knights of Columbus would all face interdict together with the Freemasons. Much of what is attributed to Freemasonry–such as anti-clericalism and anti-Catholicism–is present only in the renegade Grand Orient variant of Masonry. Other than that-- one papal document complained about Freemasonry because the good pope felt it promoted ideas of freedom of conscience, egalitarianism, and democracy. These days, most folks, even most Catholic folks, would not think it bad of Freemasonry that it might somehow lend comfort and support to such ideas, but the goodly pope was writing at a time when absolutist royalism was still an extant ideology.

Catholics who become Freemasons are puzzled about why the interdiction remains intact, largely because the only ‘binding’ documents of Freemasonry are the Old Charges and the ‘Standard Works’ issued by the Grand Lodge of each state, which contain the text of the Masonic Ritual authorized for use within that jurisdiction. The Old Charges are already a public document–I posted a link to it some time ago. It would be far easier to dialogue about Freemasonry if the Lodges and their appendant bodies dropped the rule against discussing the actual Ritual itself. The Ritual DOES need to be understood as an historical document, written in stilted and rather subtle language but it can be sorted out. The mystique of Freemasonry was once upon a time it’s biggest draw, but I tend to think it has now become a liability. Just as the Lodge at one time left attacks against it unanswered–on the premise that the best response was it’s own good works–only to have it’s silence used against it in these days. Getting past such rules and strictures would at least allow dialogue where it would count the most. I have seen portions of retual from Moose and Eagles lodges and the resemblance to Masonic ritual is striking–a lot of cross-fertilization has taken place somewhere. Making the fact clear that Freemasonry is not in any wise different from other fraternal bodies, only rather older, would defuse most of the objections raised as bars to membership.
 
I am amazed by the incorrect the anti-Masonic arguments are…I could quote from dozens of books from over 100 years ago (Hello, Albert Pike) that say the Pope is the anti-Christ, but does that make it so? These are the same type of arguments used against catholics by protestants. Albert Pike does not speak for me…
 
patricia said:
Can anyone tell me what the Catholic Church teaches about the Masonic Lodge? My Dad is very involved in Freemasonry and has been for 60 years. I’m concerned about him as it seems like it is his religion. I’m not even sure what it is all about except that it is a secret society. He won’t speak about it to the family. Can anyone help me? :confused:
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spitt2000 said:
I am amazed by the incorrect the anti-Masonic arguments are…I could quote from dozens of books from over 100 years ago (Hello, Albert Pike) that say the Pope is the anti-Christ, but does that make it so? These are the same type of arguments used against catholics by protestants. Albert Pike does not speak for me…
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Let’s get back to the original question above. The arguments referenced above by spitt2000 are actually ALL irrelevant. The Church, via doctrine, states membership in a Masonic organization incompatable with the Theology of the Church. There really is no discussion. One does not have to like it. it is what it is. Patricia has her answer.
 
patricia said:
Thank you everyone for your replies.

I would like to add that my Dad is also a staunch Anglican and has been all his life … he is now 78 yrs old.

How could he not know that Freemasonry is a ‘bad boys’ club and not compatible with Christianity? Also, I think I read in one of your web referrals that even the Church of England did not allow members to be Freemasons. Isn’t the Anglican church the same as the Church of England? I’m wondering how my Dad could call himself an Anglican or Christian and also a Freemason? :confused:

Any more thoughts on this?
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As far as I’m concerned, protestants are not so strict about banning mambership in freemasonry. There is one thing common for both anglicanism and freemasonry - it’s anticatholicism. I don’t know how to answer your other questions, simply ask your dad.
 
Maggie said:
Patricia - the following is a response I got from a friend when I asked the same question. DomninvsVobiscvm’s answer is essentially the same:

"The Masons (or Freemasons) are a secret society that on the surface resembles a normal, “lodge” (like the ones that Howard Cunningham and Fred Flintstone belong to). As a whole, they are definitely ‘bad guys’. One of the central goals of the Masonic society is to overthrow Christianity in general and the Catholic Church in particular. The lower levels of the order seem innocent enough, or too subtle in their message to be alarming, but the higher levels are reputed to be much more overtly sinister. Catholics are not permitted to be masons. I found this site that seems to sum what I know about it fairly well:

secondexodus.com/html/evangelization/evangelizingfreemasons.htm"
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I’m afraid that you have some bad information. The Freemasons do not claim to be a secret society. Anything you want to know about the Masons is in print or on the internet. It is also not true that they are conspiring to tear down Christianity. The founders of the Order were very devout believers. Any Mason will tell you that they would leave the Lodge if they thought that there was a conspiracy against the Church. There is a lot being promoted on the internet that just isn’t true. Read their official websites and find out what they are really promoting.
 
friendofgod said:
wow forbidden, think again since Vatican II…the Knights of Columbus allow Masons to join…hmmm what is going on here…oh by the way , yes Vatican II wiped Catholic history of the masons away and ushered them in…so if someone reads you any Papal decree prior to Vatican II then just silence them with authority…were all the same now, there is room at the table for everyone…
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Why is the Church condemning Freemasonry when a couple of the Popes were Freemasons. In Italy some of the priests are joining the Lodge.

What is the problem? Too much false information. Where did it start? Look up the Leo Taxil hoax on the internet and it will clear up a lot of confusion.
 
Well let me tell you how I see the Church’s teaching on this point.

We Americans (in particular) can sometimes forget that the Church is universal, and applies its law universally, although not without regard to local circumstances. It is also an institution of about 2000 years of history and long memory.

It’s painful but true that, particularly in Europe, the Masonic orders did indeed interfere to some extent in the life of the Church and attempt to undermine it. I cannot think of an American Freemason who would do such a thing, but the Church is not thinking only of America.

Next, there are two problems Masonic organizations present for the faithful Catholic as I see it (by the way, as a woman I can only speak to what I experienced in Job’s Daughters, Rainbow, and Eastern Star; I don’t know how men’s experiences with the Masonic Orders themselves may be different:
  1. We do indeed undergo an initiation, and swear an oath not to disclose what is done or said during certain ceremonies. This may not make these groups secret societies in the truest sense, but surely it is enough to cause scandal.
  2. While I never learned anything that undermined my Christian faith, (I was Protestant when I joined these Orders), an objective reading of the ritual books of the Orders shows that they teach (or could be seen to teach) indifferentism – the idea that it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you believe in God (a monotheistic, Judaeo-Christian-y God, I agree). So again, it AT LEAST is an area of scandal.
The Masonic orders do many practical good works, and as almsgiving covers a multitude of sins, I have much hope that my Masonic friends and relatives will find themselves in the friendship of God at their hour of death.

It may well be that an appearance of scandal is the gravest sin membership in Masonic groups might bring about, in the United States. But in the final analysis, the law of the Church is the law of the Church. I must submit to it. Failing to do so is a grave sin in and of itself. Surrendering my membership in the Masonic groups to which I belonged was very painful and has cost me much… but what is it worth next to the limitless value of the Eucharist?
 
Explanation from a Mason:
Never has any Masonic code said you must believe in a deity, but rather a “higher power” or a “supreme being”. For that reason, there can also be masons who have pagan or other earthly-spiritual beliefs. I would even go as far a stretch as to say humanism (believing in the dignity and worth of every being) and it’s inherent properties of rationalism, morality, and ethics are higher powers that a person can grow by. To believe in a higher power is to believe in something greater than yourself, and it is not unheard of for a humanist mason to believe that the “supreme being” is humankind and it’s potential.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Agentmoose

The problem I see is the idea of Catholics making these people his “brothers”. He also must keep his own personal faith to himself and not bring it into the lodge or share with his “brothers”. The Masons seem to be an organization, with pagan rituals, who get people (believers in a higher power) to become secular humanists. It a direct product of the “Enlightenment”. The fruits of the Masons are all around us. It is our secular humanist society. One religion is as good as another, Don’t talk about your faith and keep it to yourself and be a “free thinker”. The Mason I have quoted above is not that rare. His idea that the “supreme being” is humankind and it’s potential, is the idea behind Freemasonry. This is the path that one is led down as the Mason sets his personal faith and beliefs aside as he enters the lodge. This is contrary to our Catholic faith.

An interesting book to read is Freemasonry and the Vatican:A Struggle for Recognition Vicomte Leon De Poncins
 
Amethyst,

Thanks for the link…I really enjoyed listening. It was really good information. I was able to subscribe to the podcast so I can listen in the future. Good Stuff.
 
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