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dmelosi
Guest
Who disagrees that life begins at conception? No one.
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estesbob
Guest
Not as far as the Church is concerned. The consensus ends only with those Catholics who put their politics ahead of their faith. The Church could not be clearer in its teachings about this political issue
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Richardols
Guest
You must have missed my posts. I am a Democrat For Life, and I’ve posted on several occasions affirming that I do not support the Dem’s leadership position on abortion.
There are Democrats who are anti-abortion, including the Minority Leader in the Senate.
In this election, however, I found the Administration’s conduct of the war so repulsive that I could not vote for the GOP. It had to take a solid whipping to get the President to can Rumsfeld. I hope we all learn from this.
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system
Guest
No, that’s what you have been fooled into believing.
I believe the issue that matters is number of lives saved.
All those pro life judges, and no change, that’s clear.
Is English your first language?
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dmelosi
Guest
Let’s cut to the bottom line…you are trying to tell me that the pro life cause is better served by the Democrats. Am I reading you right?No, that’s what you have been fooled into believing.
I believe the issue that matters is number of lives saved.
All those pro life judges, and no change, that’s clear.
Is English your first language?
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Thekla
Guest
You’re right. Catholics don’t disagree.
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system
Guest
Despite the personal insult in your previous post, and the degrading tone of voice in this one, I’ll give you answer.
IF you believe the holy grail of the pro-life movement is to overturn Roe v Wade in the Supreme Court, with all the constitutional ramifications to that, then you will probably follow any party or politician who promises you that. And while the fight moves on from year to year to year, you console yourself on the number of pro-life judges that get apointed here and there thinking that it will happen any day now.
But while you’re in that fight you don’t get a free pass. You do not get to ridicule what you may call “a Party of Death” when they are the only party since RvW to actually LOWER the numbers of abortions. (look it up) For some twisted reason, republican pro-lifers cannot stomach the idea that the democratic party actually did some good. Again, what are your goals? Less deaths, or the dream of being proved legally right and therefore righteous?
You must open your mind to the notion that some people believe that lowering the number of abortions is also a pro-life thing to do.
I don’t trust human life to be in the hands of either of those two parties. Although it seems there are a lot of folks here who believe in the infallibility of the Republican party, I don’t and the election result show that most people don’t (anymore)
There is a disrespect for life that runs really deep in society. Some 5-4 vote by some men and women in their chambers next year or the year after, is not the answer to abortion. How many American women will go to Canada? Or wherever? How many Irish women will take the boat to the UK? How many in the stricter countries of the EU will hop the train over to the old eastern block countries where it’s all legal, all the time?
The answer for this problem is not in a party, and it’s not in the US Supreme Court, it’s in changing hearts and minds.
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estesbob
Guest
The old “heart and minds " dodge. Ive been hearng that one for 30 some years-almost always by people who support pro-abortion canidates and use that as a rationlaization for doing so. It is of course a self fullfilling prophecy.” Laws against abortion wont be passed until we change hearts and minds therefore we will vote for people who not only dont want to change hearts and minds but also dont want to pass laws against abortion!" What utter, utter nonsense.
It is interesting that abortion appears to be the only abject evil in our society that those who alegedly oppose it claim can not be stopped until we change “heats and minds’” You dont , for instance, see people claiming we cant pass laws agianst molesting children until we have changed the hearts and minds of all the people.Or that we dare not outlaw rape until everyone is convinced it is wrong. But boy do they set the standards high for abortion! We musnt let a few million dead children stand in the way of our politics.
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Bella3502
Guest
Say what you will. But YOUR way will clearly never work. I’m going with changing hearts and minds.
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system
Guest
You’re unbelievable, bob. I write a seven paragraph explanation, and you find the single phrase you can ridicule, while ignoring the entire point.
Tell you what bob - drop the last sentence entirely and then answer the real content.
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MJE
Guest
max37, I did not pick up any tone of disrespect in demelosi’s question. The tone was incredulous, maybe. You wrote:
“a Party of Death” when they are the only party since RvW to actually LOWER the numbers of abortions. (look it up) For some twisted reason, republican pro-lifers cannot stomach the idea that the democratic party actually did some good." Whoa! There was a drop in abortions during the 1990’s and it was not due to the Democrats. My gosh, Pres. Clinton compromised on everything except abortion. He approved the RU486 pill! The research shows there were less fertile women during that time, for starters. The Pro lifers, not the pro abortion party, took some credit for education and outreach. Remember, the partial birth abortion debate was loud and explicit. Photos of what such an abortion is were everywhere and the public was shocked at such cruelty. You obviously get your data from the pro abortion democrats and media. Those on the front lines of this pro life struggle w/ all the accompanying literature find no justification in supporting the Dem. party. The likes of Father Frank Pavone, Judy Brown, Dr and Mrs. Wilke, Father Marx (founder HLI), Nellie Grey, state chapters of Right to Life, et al disagree with you that legislation and appointments to the US Supreme Court is not important! You that continue to support the Democrats, whose very platform is full of pro abortion demands and receive millions of dollars from that industry leave many of us baffled. if you can justify a party and candidates that support all that a partial birth abortion entails leaves many of us double baffled!
“a Party of Death” when they are the only party since RvW to actually LOWER the numbers of abortions. (look it up) For some twisted reason, republican pro-lifers cannot stomach the idea that the democratic party actually did some good." Whoa! There was a drop in abortions during the 1990’s and it was not due to the Democrats. My gosh, Pres. Clinton compromised on everything except abortion. He approved the RU486 pill! The research shows there were less fertile women during that time, for starters. The Pro lifers, not the pro abortion party, took some credit for education and outreach. Remember, the partial birth abortion debate was loud and explicit. Photos of what such an abortion is were everywhere and the public was shocked at such cruelty. You obviously get your data from the pro abortion democrats and media. Those on the front lines of this pro life struggle w/ all the accompanying literature find no justification in supporting the Dem. party. The likes of Father Frank Pavone, Judy Brown, Dr and Mrs. Wilke, Father Marx (founder HLI), Nellie Grey, state chapters of Right to Life, et al disagree with you that legislation and appointments to the US Supreme Court is not important! You that continue to support the Democrats, whose very platform is full of pro abortion demands and receive millions of dollars from that industry leave many of us baffled. if you can justify a party and candidates that support all that a partial birth abortion entails leaves many of us double baffled!
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dmelosi
Guest
Of course the answer is to change hearts and minds. The bottom line is that you cannot change anyone’s hearts or minds by accepting that abortion is anything but what it is…taking of a life. The democratic party has changed “taking of a life” to mean “a womans right to choose”. I have said before that I think most politicians will sell their soul to stay in power. BUT the republican part as a platform is pro life and the democratic plaform is (so as not to offend you) pro choice. The democrats will not even bend on the partial birth abortion.Despite the personal insult in your previous post, and the degrading tone of voice in this one, I’ll give you answer.
IF you believe the holy grail of the pro-life movement is to overturn Roe v Wade in the Supreme Court, with all the constitutional ramifications to that, then you will probably follow any party or politician who promises you that. And while the fight moves on from year to year to year, you console yourself on the number of pro-life judges that get apointed here and there thinking that it will happen any day now.
But while you’re in that fight you don’t get a free pass. You do not get to ridicule what you may call “a Party of Death” when they are the only party since RvW to actually LOWER the numbers of abortions. (look it up) For some twisted reason, republican pro-lifers cannot stomach the idea that the democratic party actually did some good. Again, what are your goals? Less deaths, or the dream of being proved legally right and therefore righteous?
You must open your mind to the notion that some people believe that lowering the number of abortions is also a pro-life thing to do.
I don’t trust human life to be in the hands of either of those two parties. Although it seems there are a lot of folks here who believe in the infallibility of the Republican party, I don’t and the election result show that most people don’t (anymore)
There is a disrespect for life that runs really deep in society. Some 5-4 vote by some men and women in their chambers next year or the year after, is not the answer to abortion. How many American women will go to Canada? Or wherever? How many Irish women will take the boat to the UK? How many in the stricter countries of the EU will hop the train over to the old eastern block countries where it’s all legal, all the time?
The answer for this problem is not in a party, and it’s not in the US Supreme Court, it’s in changing hearts and minds.
And if you wish to continue to fool yourself that the democrats intentionally are lowering the number of abortions, I believe that cloud will lift from you one day. In this issue it is simply not political, republicans are MOSTLY pro life and democrats are MOSTLY pro choice (or whatever you wish to call it). In today’s mostly liberal press, how do you know what and who to believe, you have to get to the very basic.
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OriginalJS
Guest
This exchange regarding abortion has been rehearsed many times. Those adamantly opposed to any opinion other than their own simply refuse to discuss the issue, and treat any attempt at reasoning with the utmost disdain - in short for them, there is nothing to discuss because the issue is so clear.
Often they come across as enraged by the facts and lash out at anyone seeking to have a civilized discussion. But, it is indisputable that Roe v. Wade has been on the books for as long as anyone under 40 can remember; the same is true of legalized birth control. (Who can really remember now when it was against the law in Massachusetts to sell birth control devices?) The “morning after” pill is being sold by drug retailers. Many Catholics are using birth control, as many others lament.
All of this has come about because the “hearts and minds” of the public have changed in the last century or so.
If pro-lifers are going to make headway against this current, they are going to have to do so with convincing reasoned arguments, not with outrage and scorn. Some progress has been made as I understand the rate of abortions has dropped over the past few years.
Finally, the wide acceptance of birth control and abortion took decades and came incrementally. Turning the tide will have to be done the same way.
There are pro-life Democrats. And, a solid argument can be made that Democrats give more priority to the interests of the middle class and poor than Republicans do. Perhaps there would be fewer abortions if people were a bit better off economically.
Often they come across as enraged by the facts and lash out at anyone seeking to have a civilized discussion. But, it is indisputable that Roe v. Wade has been on the books for as long as anyone under 40 can remember; the same is true of legalized birth control. (Who can really remember now when it was against the law in Massachusetts to sell birth control devices?) The “morning after” pill is being sold by drug retailers. Many Catholics are using birth control, as many others lament.
All of this has come about because the “hearts and minds” of the public have changed in the last century or so.
If pro-lifers are going to make headway against this current, they are going to have to do so with convincing reasoned arguments, not with outrage and scorn. Some progress has been made as I understand the rate of abortions has dropped over the past few years.
Finally, the wide acceptance of birth control and abortion took decades and came incrementally. Turning the tide will have to be done the same way.
There are pro-life Democrats. And, a solid argument can be made that Democrats give more priority to the interests of the middle class and poor than Republicans do. Perhaps there would be fewer abortions if people were a bit better off economically.
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Thekla
Guest
You know, I think that there are two main arguments on criminalized behavior. There is the side that believes the reason to have criminal laws is to prevent chaos in society. But there’s another side that wants things criminalized in order to force them to do the right thing. I read a really interesting article about Christian fundamentalists who believe that that is the true role for government; to help or even force them to moral conduct.
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dmelosi
Guest
What is undisputable is that Democrats as a party are pro choice, I cannot see that changing, Republicans as a party are pro life, BUT i see some erosion there. Continue to make excuses for the Democratic party on much less important issues, that will never change. Abortions will continue to become “accepted” or “ok” as long as it is someone else. Let the Republicans continue to erode on their pro life views, and there is not turning back.
The govenor in my state is a democrat as pro choice as any. The republican candidate was also pro choice. I worked to try to make sure that as many as my friends and family that would listen, would not vote for the Republican because of her pro choice stance. That message has to be sent to stop the Republican erosion.
Arguments like the “obvious hard core never change democrats” make, only escalate the erosion. There will be no turning back. I am embarrased that so many Catholics think that there are more important issues than the 43 million babies snuffed.
Arguments like you are making “dumb” down the fact that killing is killing. You do not realize that you are closing the ears to many other Catholics by this type of argument.
These are the facts that cannot be disputed;
The democratic platform is pro choice (hard and firm)
The republican platform is pro life (although eroding)
Abortion is murder
There are over 43 million babies killed so far.
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dmelosi
Guest
Regarding your outrage and scorn comments…
Abortion is murder, you either believe that or not. I have to believe that is the root of how people may fool themselves.
If you believe that abortion is murder, how can you support any candidate that is pro murder, Republican or Democrat. That leads to the question of how to stop the erosion among the party that is pro life.
Church teachings say that it is taking a life, what is so hard to understand about that? What issue is more important?
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estesbob
Guest
Not as long as supposedly pro-life supporters continue to put pro-abortion politicans in office, Like I said its a slef fullfilling prophecy that people use to rationalize voting for those who enable the killing of our children.
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estesbob
Guest
Pro-abortion myth #2 “Those who support killing our children help reduce abortions ,those who oppose abortion cause abortion to increase”
In the wonderful world of abortion land up is down, down is up and the best way to stop killing our children is support killing our children.
I, like millions of other commited to the cause spent the last 35 years working my butt off in CPCs , supporting pro-life canidates and funding pro-life oragnizations. The only thing I can recall getting from the Democrat Party were attempts to try and shut our CPCs down… Abortions have been dropping since 1980 becuase of the hard work and dedication iof people who will not rationalize away the killing of 47 million people. Abortion would have ened in this country long ago if not for those who allege to be pro-life who vote to support killing out children.
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Richardols
Guest
Many Catholics believe that the War, the economy, government expansion, and to some, government erosion of civil liberties, are important enough not to give the Republicans a pass on the way they’ve handled these issues.
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Richardols
Guest
Absolutely so.
I don’t doubt this at all.
With you on the two first sentences! The last sentence is probably unprovable.
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