Catholicism vs Mormonism

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openmind77 said:
Does this mean Unitarians are not Christians either?
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More-or-less. They (along with Jehovah’s Witnesses) can be thought of as Christians in a sociological sense, but theologically they are not due to their rejection of the Trinity.

Nearly all ecumenical Christian organisations and endeavours require that, as a bare minimum, participants have a Trinitarian theology.
 
Bithynian said:
Not being overly familiar with Mormonism (their community is very small in Australia), I had to google what a Lamamite is. After reading a few paragraphs on Wikipedia, one of Augustine’s pithy observations entered into my mind: quis vel delirus ita sentiat? (who’s that nutty to believe this?).
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It should be noted that the poster in question claiming to be “Lamanite” (which was a term used to designate darker-skinned persons who were often considered less pleasing to God in old Mormon theology) is also using an avatar that is half the Confederate Flag and half the flag of the League of the South, a white supremacist group. Quite a bit seems to be amiss there.
 
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openmind77 said:
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Vico:
The belief in the Holy Trinity is basic to Catholicism and Christianity. Catholic Answers: “Mormonism is polytheistic because it teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate gods.”
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Does this mean Unitarians are not Christians either?
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Unitarian Christians (not to be confused with Unitarian Universalists) do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ nor the divine person of the Holy Spirit. If communities call themselves Christian it could be a latter departure from the definitions of the early councils of the Catholic Orthodox Church or pre-date them.
  • Nicaea 325 A.D. – Affirmed the divinity of the Son.
  • Constantinople I 381 A.D. – Affirmed the divinity of the Holy Spirit.
  • Ephesus 431 A.D. – Affirmed that Jesus Christ’s divinity and humanity are united in one person.
 
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Oh great, now I’m hungry…
Used to be a great Turkish restaurant near my old workplace, they had that and many other specialties. Really miss it although around here we have all kinds of awesome Mexican food that the old neighborhood didn’t have at all.
 
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Vico said:
Matthew 28
18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
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There is nothing in these verses that support the Trinitarian belief that that 1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are consubstantial with each other, 2) three Divine Persons have existed co-eternally and co-equally, 3) the hypostatic union of the human and divine natures of the Son.
Montrose said:
Well my friend Mormons are not Christians.
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This is a false statement.
Alexandria2020 said:
The Church of the East believed in the Trinity.
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Starting when?
Montrose said:
They are not. They reject the Holy Trinity.
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Rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity does not disqualify someone from being Christian. Where does the Bible say that?!?!
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Alexandria2020 said:
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gazelam:
Starting when?
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The Didache from the first century.
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” ( Didache 7:1)

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Charles H. Hoole).
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How do you see this passage as supporting the doctrine of the Trinity? It say pretty much the same thing at the Matthew 28 passages above.
 
gazelam said:
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Vico:
Matthew 28
18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
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There is nothing in these verses that support the Trinitarian belief that that 1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are consubstantial with each other, 2) three Divine Persons have existed co-eternally and co-equally, 3) the hypostatic union of the human and divine natures of the Son.
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I responded only to: “It is NEVER mentioned in the Holy Scriptures.”

The Holy Trinity, is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

So there is mention.
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Vico said:
I responded only to: “It is NEVER mentioned in the Holy Scriptures.”

The Holy Trinity, is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

So there is mention.
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Fair enough. If the term “Trinity” is used as merely shorthand for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (which rarely even Latter-day Saints will do), then yes it is a mention. If you’re using the term to describe the full Orthodox Christian theology of God, such a description is not found in the Bible.
 
gazelam said:
How do you see this passage as supporting the doctrine of the Trinity? It say pretty much the same thing at the Matthew 28 passages above.
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it’s proof of the fact that the concept of the Trinity was there since the 1st century. The Gospel of Matthew is dated to the 1st century as well.

Then later on people such as Arius came along in the 3rd-4th centuries (but I’m sure these ideas existed before) promoting the idea of Arianism - the non-trinitarian doctrine that Jesus is the actual son of God, created by God. Funny thing is Constantine the Great himself was baptized by an Arian bishop ( Eusebius of Nicomedia).

This matter was finally settled in the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. And Arianism was labeled as heretical. While the “Trinity” was accepted as the right doctrine. This council is accepted by the Catholic Church, both Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy, Assyrian Church of the East, and mainstream Protestantism.
 
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Alexandria2020 said:
it’s proof of the fact that the concept of the Trinity was there since the 1st century. The Gospel of Matthew is dated to the 1st century as well.
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Could you please provide examples of the full doctrine of the Trinity being believed in the First Century?

I have quotes from scholars of religion stating that your assertion is not accurate.

“Indeed, until Athanasius began writing, every single theologian, East and West, had postulated some form of Subordinationism. It could, about the year 300, have been described as a fixed part of catholic theology.” (R. P. C. Hansen)

The New Testament itself is far from any doctrine of the Trinity or of a triune God who is three co-equal Persons of One Nature. (William J. Hill, The Three-Personed God (Washington DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1982), 27.)

There is no formal doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament writers, if this means an explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. (Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1972), 44

Maurice Wiles states, “The emergence of the full Trinitarian doctrine was not possible without significant modification of previously accepted ideas.” (Wiles, The Making of Christian Doctrine, 144)
 
gazelam said:
Could you please provide examples of the full doctrine of the Trinity being believed in the First Century?
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Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is One- Deuteronomy 6:4

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God- John 1:1

the full doctrine of the Trinity wasn’t invented by any council out of the blue. but the doctrine was necessarily derived later on through readings of the Scriptures. as various heresies arised. The Trinitarian theology was assumed by early Christians but it later needed to be defined in a precise language and preserved in creedal form.
 
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Montrose said:
Well my friend Mormons are not Christians.
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They are according to their definition of Christianity. Just realize that the Jesus they worship is not the Jesus we worship.

Well, sort of anyway. They actually don’t even worship Jesus. God the Father is the only being whom they worship.
 
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They are not Christians according to the Catholic definition of Christians. They are Christians according to their definition of Christians.

You could compare it to English football and American football. They are totally different but both are football.
 
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RuthAnne said:
They are Christians according to their definition of Christians.
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The fact is even Protestant Christians would disagree with that.

Pastor Jeff is not Catholic. He’s a Protestant Christian.

 
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RuthAnne said:
They are Christians according to their definition of Christians.
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However, that does not make them Christians and they are not Christians.
Christ established the Catholic Church and gave it authority to teach in matters of faith and morals. He did not entrust the Mormons with the deposit of faith. Their religion was founded by a drug addict who was into the occult.
 
gazelam said:
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Fair enough. If the term “Trinity” is used as merely shorthand for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (which rarely even Latter-day Saints will do), then yes it is a mention. If you’re using the term to describe the full Orthodox Christian theology of God, such a description is not found in the Bible.
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See my post on Unitarian Christians: Catholicism vs Mormonism - #109 by Vico

The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes the formation of the Trinitarian dogma.
The formation of the Trinitarian dogma

250 From the beginning, the revealed truth of the Holy Trinity has been at the very root of the Church’s living faith, principally by means of Baptism. It finds its expression in the rule of baptismal faith, formulated in the preaching, catechesis and prayer of the Church. Such formulations are already found in the apostolic writings, such as this salutation taken up in the Eucharistic liturgy: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” 81

251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”. 82

81 2 Cor 13:14; cf. 1 Cor 12:4-6; Eph 4:4-6.
82 Paul VI, CPG § 2 [CPG = Solemn Profession of faith : Credo of the People of God]
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Alexandria2020 said:
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RuthAnne:
They are Christians according to their definition of Christians.
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The fact is even Protestant Christians would disagree with that.
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But the fact remains, they are Christians by their definition. Even their past president Hinckley said that they do not believe in the traditional Christ. They believe in their own version of Christ.

All this arguing back and forth over whether Mormonites are Christians or not is fruitless silliness.
 
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