Catholics and Immigration

[Ituyu]

This is the 21st Century; your history lesson is over 100 years old. A different time when America was fewer than 48 States. How this ties into a deluge of 20-30 million illegal immigrants beats the heck out of me.

As for the Hungarians, Italians (you left out Polish, Slovaks, Croatians, Ukrainians, Russians et al) they were recruited by the American coalmine owners along with the Steel mills by offering them paid passage to America and jobs, These people did the hard, dirty and dangerous work. America was very young then. Every immigrant from Europe had to undergo examinations of many sorts. And they paid taxes from Day One.

The only time that same old worn argument has succeeded was during shameful periods in our history. The internment camps of the Japanese are not a hundred years in the past.

Certainly, there are criminals among all peoples but the facts are that we have more to fear from the “native born” than we do of immigrants that consistently have had lower criminal rates. A statistic that has held for over a hundred years since we began to keep the statistics.

We have only ourselves to blame if the “illegal” have come without being screened. We had complete control of that and all we had to do was to screen and admit the immigrants that our economy required.

And, the “illegal” pay taxes as well. In fact they pay more in taxes than they receive in services. How is that the cause of the downfall of America? Please substantiate as I would be happy to see any evidence that you have to offer.

 

[Ituyu]

Most Americans are not against immigration, since almost all Americans are either immigrants, or the descendants of immigrants. That said, let’s talk about illiegal immigrants.

And most Americans favor Immigration Reform that allows for a path to citizenship too.

“Undocumented workers” is the politically correct term for illegal aliens. Illegal means that they are here illegally. They are breaking the law.

 

[Ituyu]

Amen to all of that. During the refugees from Cuba (boat people) there were literally thousands that Castro sent over to America as he emptied his prisons of felons.

Can we keep things in perspective?

“For one thing, crime rates in Miami had already been rising well before Mariel, she points out. In fact, only 350 felons and 1,306 accused of lesser crimes were among those who crossed the Straits of Florida - about 1.4 percent of the arrivals. Ojito and her family are shining examples of the quality of Cubans who chose to escape. Her father was a hard-working and law-abiding truck driver, her mother a seamstress. She was only 16 when she landed seasick and bewildered on May 11, 1980, at Key West aboard an old towing boat named Manana.”

mirtaojito.com/review6.htm

 

[kbharbert]

Most Americans are not against immigration, since almost all Americans are either immigrants, or the descendants of immigrants. That said, let’s talk about illiegal immigrants.

“Undocumented workers” is the politically correct term for illegal aliens. Illegal means that they are here illegally. They are breaking the law.

Now the question is, do you have a lock on the door to your house? Why do you feel that you need to lock the door? Are you opressing strangers by controlling who can come into your home?

Well, it’s the same with nations. We take in more immigrants than the rest of the world combined. But we can only accept them as fast as they can be assimilated. Secondly, we need to make sure that we are not accepting people who are bringing in contageous diseases, or criminals, or terrorists.

The real problem is our politicians. We have an administration that refuses to enforce the immigration laws. We have millions of illegals in this country. This same administration which claims to be so concerned about protecting us from terrorists, doesn’t seem interested in who walks across the border. American citizens are harrassed by the USA PATRIOT Act, and other laws that would seem more appropriate in Nazi Germany, but illegal alliens are not being deported, nor prevented from just walking across the border.

At the same time, our politicians are offering benefits and social programs to the illegals, and encouraging them NOT to assimilate. Why do you think our government has put up signs in Spanish?

People are welcome to come here from every country, but they need to come here legally. And when they do come here, they need to assimilate. If you don’t want to learn our common language (English) and become an American, go back where you came from.

ابو كمون

**AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!
when i was growing up we had italian and greek people in our neighborhood. while they wanted to preserve their language and ways (and they did and were willing to teach us who wanted to learn them as well) they also INSISTED their children speak english and learn the ways of our country. they came here for a BETTER life and were PROUD to show off their certificates when they became citizens. those little pieces of paper were hung in places of honor in their homes. AMERICA meant FREEDOM and a better education…a better LIFE. BEING an american was an HONOR.
they brought THEIR culture to MY neighborhood and we ALL learned from each other.
BUT…
they did not expect or even WANT my neighborhood to become where they came from. the ‘old country’ was a place usually beloved and remembered with fondness but THIS was a NEW life.
the same should be true for those coming here NOW>
do it legally.
i don’t cry and moan that someone is deported without their children (who were born here and are citizens because of it) because they CHOSE to break the law. it doesn’t matter WHY they did, they did.
yes…i feel badly for the kids…it isn’t their FAULT…but at some point, the line MUSTbe drawn and the dirty work must be done.
‘i’ have to obey the laws of this country and i was never anything BUT an american citizen. why should these people be treated differently?
as for the argument that the economy NEEDS them…bull.
what the economy NEEDS is to teach the people of generation whiner that they have to work to eat.

**

 

[ChristianVet]

One of the big reasons that middle class Americans are so offended by Bush’s characterization of the issue as*…“jobs that Americans won’t do”* is because he is completely wrong!

These are not jobs that Americans *“won’t do”, *but are not allowed *“to do.” *

First of all, the offending employers will not even consider American kids (teens and college age) because they don’t want to pay a decent wage. They want to pay a slave wage.

Secondly, most of this delemma lays at the foot of our broken educational system in America.

Besides having the issue of really not teaching current events and classical American history, ***most public schools ***do not even include training for manual labor jobs or careers in their curriculum.

Let’s face it, not everyone is an Einstein, or a John Kennedy, or a Bill Gates. Some kids are just not motivated to want to attend 4 to 8 years of college before they earn a dollar.

These kids wouldn’t mind, in fact, some would love to have a job in the fields, or being an apprentice at a construction site, or learning professional landscaping with on the job training.

Sadly, they will never get the chance because illegal immigration is out of control and wealthy elitists such as Bush, are completely out of touch with the large majority middle class in America. Worse yet, it seems he doesn’t really care.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I agree.

We need to fully discuss and debate the immigration reform proposals. For example, there are 800 sections to the proposed law. They all need to be read and fully understood as to their implications. The table of contents alone is 13 pages.

If illegal immigrants decide NOT to pursue citizenship, for example, they would become FULLY legal immediately after the bill was signed into law by the President. FULLY legal, jumping the line on legal applicants who have been waiting for years in their home countries and undergoing medical exams and criminal and terrorist background checks.

FULLY legal and able to get in-state tuition and welfare benefits, for example.

A person applying under a false name (such as an actual terrorist sleeper) would become LEGAL instantly. [Oh, yes, there is 24-hour background check, but our bureaucracy has a two-year backlog already for legal applicants. The bureaucracy can do not much of anything in 24-hours.]

By all means let us debate all aspects of the proposed legislation. There is no need to rush into this.

Already we are not enforcing existing immigration law.

Why jump into this new law in haste?

It’s staggering how something so impacting on America’s culture and economy also its heath system can be so “poo-pooed” and downplayed. THAT is insane ! Reality is soberness of mind and seeing things as they really are.

When civil strife begets a nation everything is challenged even religion.

__
Pray for America

 

[Ituyu]

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!

when i was growing up we had italian and greek people in our neighborhood. while they wanted to preserve their language and ways (and they did and were willing to teach us who wanted to learn them as well) they also INSISTED their children speak english and learn the ways of our country. they came here for a BETTER life and were PROUD to show off their certificates when they became citizens. those little pieces of paper were hung in places of honor in their homes. AMERICA meant FREEDOM and a better education…a better LIFE. BEING an american was an HONOR.

This is simply an old argument that has been used against most of our immigrants throughout our history. The Italians that you speak of so respectfully were also victims of these same arguments in the past. Hopefully, we will speak of all those currently here “illegally” with the same respect in the future:

"
Organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan became much more prevalent during the 1920s, growing as large as 10 million members across the country. These groups exploited racist and xenophobic tendencies in Americans to induce people to join. They used such phrases in their propaganda like “America for Americans” that caught on quickly with a vast number of people (Byrne). Racism was one of the main causes of animosity towards Italians in America during the 1920s. Italians typically had darker skin that “old stock” Americans such as the English, German, and Dutch, so they were subject to much of the same discrimination faced in African-American, Asian- American, and Latino-American communities (Levinson 475)."

http://www.msu.edu/course/mc/112/1920s/Immigration/Jamiespage.html

**

they did not expect or even WANT my neighborhood to become where they came from. the ‘old country’ was a place usually beloved and remembered with fondness but THIS was a NEW life.

 

[mary_bobo]

One of the big reasons that middle class Americans are so offended by Bush’s characterization of the issue as*…“jobs that Americans won’t do”* is because he is completely wrong!

These are not jobs that Americans *“won’t do”, *but are not allowed *“to do.” *

First of all, the offending employers will not even consider American kids (teens and college age) because they don’t want to pay a decent wage. They want to pay a slave wage.

Secondly, most of this delemma lays at the foot of our broken educational system in America.

Besides having the issue of really not teaching current events and classical American history, ***most public schools ***do not even include training for manual labor jobs or careers in their curriculum.

Let’s face it, not everyone is an Einstein, or a John Kennedy, or a Bill Gates. Some kids are just not motivated to want to attend 4 to 8 years of college before they earn a dollar.

These kids wouldn’t mind, in fact, some would love to have a job in the fields, or being an apprentice at a construction site, or learning professional landscaping with on the job training.

Sadly, they will never get the chance because illegal immigration is out of control and wealthy elitists such as Bush, are completely out of touch with the large majority middle class in America. Worse yet, it seems he doesn’t really care.

I agree with much of what you say. The immigration bill that they are proposing is a mish-mash of things and one section contradicts another section. Before we can do anything remotely fair for all we need to first close the border. Our “good” politicians seem unwilling or unable to do this. Then we can determine who is here, why they are here, if not legal, why not. And this song and dance about separating families is just a ploy to try to make those of us who believe in laws feel quilty about our opinions and feelings. Yes, we may need more laborers. But first, why not get to the crux of the problem, the companies, large and small, that hire illegals. If wages were what they should be, many more Americans would take the jobs. Many of them are entry level jobs and perhaps prepare one for advancement or make it easier for a person to get more education. This, with enforcing the laws that are already on the books, would help the situation tremendously.

 

[Ituyu]

Why jump into this new law in haste?

An inaccurate historical view indeed! Many of these people have been working in the shadows even before 1982. That’s more than a quarter century. Had they not had the courage and conviction to risk their safety for the good of their families we all would have suffered because we all benefit from their presence here. Inflation has been kept in check, they pay taxes, Social Security benefits has funds that the “illegal” pay into but cannot receive, something like 500 billion dollars. They support our infrastructure all the way down to the costs of our food supply. We didn’t have the foresight or the fortitude to allow those that are currently standing in line in to fill these jobs. The people we want working the jobs at the bottom are those that need it most and that to me happens to be the “illegal” as they worked hardest to get those jobs. The only pragmatic way we have of resolving the issue is to “legalize” those who have had to live in the shadows and have fostered our economic growth. However, they will not qualify for citizenship ahead of anyone else.

 

[Ituyu]

But first, why not get to the crux of the problem, the companies, large and small, that hire illegals. If wages were what they should be, many more Americans would take the jobs. This, with enforcing the laws that are already on the books, would help the situation tremendously.

The crux of the problem is not the “illegal” or the “companies”, they are part of the solution rendered through the natural laws of Supply and Demand. EVEN if wages were higher, we DO NOT have the people to fill those jobs. Remember our unemployment rate has been very low though we integrated millions of the “illegal” into our workforce. Unemployment rates would have skyrocketed had we had the bodies with which to fill those jobs. And guess what? WE WILL NEED STILL MORE IMMIGRANTS TO MEET OUR DEMAND FOR LABOR. Hopefully, we will make changes that will allow us to meet that demand legally. Thus, ENFORCEMENT under your scenario WOULD SOLVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

 

[Ituyu]

Why does so much of the Anti-Immigrant argument rely on our INSECURITIES, half-truths, exaggeration, distortion, unsubstantiated “feelings” and a zeal for solutions that we know are not possible?

 

[kbharbert]

 

[Ituyu]

****i RESENT those who come here for a supposed better life and do nothing but clammer like two year olds for ‘rights’ that they are NOT entitled too. ****

****I don’t doubt that there are **some ****in the workforce that experience competition from uneducated and unskilled workers who cannot speak a word or English. I think that we can do more to train our citizens to do other jobs that will pay them more as it doesn’t make sense to use over-qualified people to push brooms and mop floors or even dig ditches. The jobs that the “illegal” do are basically entry-level jobs that anybody can do. They are at the bottom rung of the employment ladder. Educated citizens, even those that have dropped out of high school are better used in other jobs that pay more if they have a responsible work ethic. There is no reason that they can’t move up the ladder of success. They have had the benefit of three squares a day, better health care, a free education and the infrastructure to get ahead. There should be no problem in preparing them for better employment opportunities. Job security in this day and age is a thing of the past and virtually all of us have to adjust to the job market. But, in our economy that means that they have an opportunity to fill jobs in the middle because in the future we will be seeking immigrants to fill those jobs and that’s only because we won’t have the people to fill them. But, they have to be prepared to move up and the initiative is theirs.

Those that think that the “illegal” don’t deserve the opportunity to “legalize” even though they often times work harder are difficult to understand. The “illegal”, aside from the fact that they crossed a border, have been productive, law abiding people making an honest living. The vast majority occupy jobs that would have gone unfilled and they pay for services that they can’t get. And, virtually all the complaints against them can be resolved through “legalization” since they will have all the responsibilities of the rest of us.
**

 

[mary_bobo]

The crux of the problem is not the “illegal” or the “companies”, they are part of the solution rendered through the natural laws of Supply and Demand. EVEN if wages were higher, we DO NOT have the people to fill those jobs. Remember our unemployment rate has been very low though we integrated millions of the “illegal” into our workforce. Unemployment rates would have skyrocketed had we had the bodies with which to fill those jobs. And guess what? WE WILL NEED STILL MORE IMMIGRANTS TO MEET OUR DEMAND FOR LABOR. Hopefully, we will make changes that will allow us to meet that demand legally. Thus, ENFORCEMENT under your scenario WOULD SOLVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

I can’t recall saying we did not need immigrants. I am only stating facts as they are. Companies do hire illegals because they will work for less money. I do not think this is right. If they do a day’s work they should be paid what they should be paid. We do, indeed, need immigrants and as I have said several times before, as far as I am concerned, they are welcome, IF THEY COME LEGALLY. Our government has not deigned to enforce the laws that are already on the books, I cannot believe that they will enforce any new ones they might pass. And as far as meeting the demand legally, I thought that is what I have been saying all along.

 

[Ituyu]

I can’t recall saying we did not need immigrants. I am only stating facts as they are. Companies do hire illegals because they will work for less money. I do not think this is right. If they do a day’s work they should be paid what they should be paid.

Because the “illegal” are in a vulnerable position and feel that to make waves at work will expose them to deportation. The way around that is to “legalize” them. That will level the playing field so that they cannot be exploited and in turn cannot be used against a competing American worker.

We do, indeed, need immigrants and as I have said several times before, as far as I am concerned, they are welcome, IF THEY COME LEGALLY. Our government has not deigned to enforce the laws that are already on the books, I cannot believe that they will enforce any new ones they might pass.

 

[Al_Masetti]

The ONLY reason for tolerating ILLEGAL immigrants in the United States is that the bureaucracy of the U.S. Government cannot or will not process the requests for LEGAL immigrants fast enough.

Story after story is emerging about the abuse of LEGAL immigrant applications. People are waiting and jumping through hoops for years in order to get here while respecting the law.

Why is that?

 

[kbharbert]

The ONLY reason for tolerating ILLEGAL immigrants in the United States is that the bureaucracy of the U.S. Government cannot or will not process the requests for LEGAL immigrants fast enough.

Story after story is emerging about the abuse of LEGAL immigrant applications. People are waiting and jumping through hoops for years in order to get here while respecting the law.

Why is that?

**because american citizens do not feel those jobs pay enough, they don’t want them and the agency is shorthanded. i am being sarcastic **

 

[Ituyu]

The ONLY reason for tolerating ILLEGAL immigrants in the United States is that the bureaucracy of the U.S. Government cannot or will not process the requests for LEGAL immigrants fast enough.

Story after story is emerging about the abuse of LEGAL immigrant applications. People are waiting and jumping through hoops for years in order to get here while respecting the law.

Why is that?

That’s half right. We don’t process the needed legal applications because we don’t want THEM. Politicians want the option to exploit them politically, economically and when we feel it’s to our benefit we want the ability to bully them and deport them. But guess what? Our little plan has blown up in our face. We can’t deport these people because WE NEED THEM and fortunately for our economy, it’s not possible. Whose fault is it that they our here “illegally”? Look in the mirror. America is in denial WE NEED these people and WE WANT their services and ALL the benefits accrued, some of us just don’t want THEM. Well we can’t have our cake and eat it too!

 

[johnstown_johnn]

America will soon implode. The War and the Immigrant problems are the nukes.

__

Pray for Peace; pray for America

 

[kbharbert]

America will soon implode. The War and the Immigrant problems are the nukes.

__

Pray for Peace; pray for America

**i don’t think we’ll sink just yet…though…america WILL no longer BE america as we know it.
**