Catholics; tell me the wrongs in my protestant church!

[Thorwald]

I was raised LDS thorwald. That particular religion started from Joseph Smith and his claimed visions of God. Sound familiar?

I know religious BS when I see it. You got it. I don’t need it. Or course, you can choose to believe what you like.

I was approached by two Mormon ‘missionaries’. I attended a couple of their ‘church’ services, to see what they ‘were all about’. I was told by them, that they believed that we all were in heaven, before coming to earth (ie. to be born). It was while I was ‘debating’ the truth of this, while sitting on my couch at home, that I experienced my first vision. In the vision, I actually ‘relived my birth’. The Mormons are wrong! Have a nice day.

 

[Thorwald]

Yeah I meant prophet… sorry for the spelling… Now are you a profit like Benny Hinn?

I have no idea who Benny Hinn is.

 

[Thorwald]

Uhm… your name in a prior life didn’t happen to be Joseph Smith now, would it?

You ridicule and you scorn. I suppose that you would prefer also to “kill His prophets” and assume that you have done God a great favour.

 

[Thorwald]

[bolded emphasis is mine]

Oh the IRONY of such a statement.

Sweetie, forum rules: no personal revelations and no proselytizing.

I don’t serve the forum. I serve God.

 

[Liraco]

Speaking of truth, what do you say to Jesus’ promise? “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” - Matthew 16:18

Certainly you don’t mean that He screwed up in His election or that the enemy is actually more powerful so as to prevail. Even if there have been bad people in the Church, one doesn’t leave Jesus because of Judas. So then what? I’m just honestly trying to understand your point on being “thrown out” of the Church. Is there no Church then for which to have His promise apply to (and if so, why despite this promise)?
"Thorwald:

The Trinity & The Godhead, consists of 4 figures, not 3.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Who’s the 4th? Of course in this case it’s not a trinity anymore.

---

I am a Mormon. I see lots of hate on this Catholic forum towards those who do not believe like a Catholic. I thought I would learn a lot. I seem to be learning that there is complete intolerance for ALL non-Catholics.

A real shame to see all of this bashing and mockery. A real lack of charity with some of these people… As I once read, “you don’t judge the medicine by those who refuse to take it”.

I agree that you should stick around, there’s a lot to be learned even if some of our brothers and sisters here have the worst manners when dealing with “strangers”. That’s the problem with forums, but I hope you can see past it and see the good that’s in here.

 

[Thorwald]

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Who’s the 4th? Of course in this case it’s not a trinity anymore.

I answered this in my posting #111.

 

[firstmode]

I’m not sure which “branch” of Methodist you are, but I will assume that you’re in one of the non-OSAS (once saved, always saved). That’s one thing that you won’t have to “relearn” (as I did as a former Presbyterian). I know what you mean about the plastic “shot glasses” with Welch’s and the Hawaiian bread (that’s what my former church used). Just as an aside, do you know how Welch’s grape juice came to be? This Wiki on Thomas Welch is an interesting read.

I definately agree with the other posters about looking forward to the positives and what you’re gaining by converting to Catholicism and not back to what your former “didn’t have”. Truth be told, no matter how much a protestant denomination retained from Catholicism, it still would be missing at least one (very important) thing (the Real Presence in the Eucharist).

And about Eucharistic Adoration, that is something you can do before you’re confirmed. Sometimes it is a simple as going to an Adoration Chapel with the Blessed Sacrament exposed in a monstrance and praying in the presence of Our Lord. Sometimes, with a priest present, there is what is called Benediction, which is a whole liturgy on its own. Some hymns are sang (such as “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” or other Eucharistic hymns), usually the Divine Praises are prayed. There is a period of time for quiet prayer, and then, before the Blessed Sacrament is placed back in the tabernacle, the priest blesses the people with it (he makes a sign of the cross over the people while it is in the monstrance while wearing what is called a humeral veil). This is a very lovely liturgy and I hope you get to attend one soon.

One last thing… I hope you like learning! You are about to embark on a life-long journey of learning, and reading, and studying, and praying, and… Personally, I am a history, music and theology “buff”, so I have encountered the “trifecta” of all three interests. There is 2000 years of history with the Church, so I will have much to learn and study for the rest of my life! I would like to give a bit of a warning… don’t feel like you have to know everything about Catholicism before you convert… again, learning everything you can about 2000 years of history is impossible in one (or several) lifetimes. Make sure you have a good foundation of knowledge to support a whole lifetime.

E

When did Eucharist Adoration begin in history? What is the first recorded date of people being in a room with the elements exposed and saying they are now in God’s presence?

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Trinity & The Godhead, consists of 4 figures, not 3. Both the Lord God Almighty, and His only begotten son Jesus Christ were manifested to me. The presence of The Father and The Holy Ghost (who proceedeth from the Father) were made known unto me, but I could not see them. The Lord God Almighty is The Father’s Son. Jesus Christ, is His Son. The angels are ‘created’ sons of the Lord God Almighty. We, if found worthy until the end, will become sons/daughters of the Lord God Almighty. THIS IS THE TRUTH!

I have been told, that even now, my name is written in heaven. No man can take this treasure from me.

The belief of the Trinity is not 4 figures or 3. It is three Persons, God, the Father, God, the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three Divine Persons but One God. I find your analysis on the Trinity completely erroneous, especially when you said, “Both the Lord God Almighty, and his Only begotten Son…” They are one not separate…

The Trinity can be sum up in the Athanasian Creed which states the following:

**Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. **

As for your own private revelation, I raise some doubt about your visions.

 

[Mannyfit75]

When did Eucharist Adoration begin in history? What is the first recorded date of people being in a room with the elements exposed and saying they are now in God’s presence?

ANSWER:

The practice of adoration traces its roots to the fact that in monasteries and convents the Blessed Sacrament was an integral part of the structure of cloistered life. From the beginning of community life the unconsecrated bread and wine were originally kept in a special room, just off the sanctuary but separated from the church where the Divine Liturgy or Mass was offered, stemming from the standard practice of having a skeuophylakion which was found in cathedral and parish churches, an architecturally separate building or room where the deacons prepared the bread and wine before the liturgy in a service developed in the East called the proskomedia.

One of the first possible references to reserving the Blessed Sacrament for adoration is found in a life of St. Basil (who died in 379). Basil is said to have divided the Eucharistic Bread into three parts when he celebrated the Divine Liturgy in the monastery. One part he consumed, the second part he gave to the monks, and the third he placed in a golden dove suspended over the altar. It is more likely, however, that this separate portion was simply for the purpose of reserving the sacrament for distribution in contexts in which a communicant could not attend the Divine Liturgy, which is a standard practice throughout the ancient churches, even those who do not practice extra-liturgical Eucharistic adoration. In Eastern Christianity, the sort of extra-liturgical adoration which developed in the West has never been part of the Eastern liturgy which St. Basil celebrated, but a liturgy for adoration does exist, involving psalms and placing a covered diskos with the Sacred Species on the altar. This is befitting the Eastern custom of veiling those things deemed sacred from human eyes.

The Franciscan archives credit Saint Francis of Assisi (who died in 1226) for starting Eucharistic Adoration in Italy. The lay practice of adoration formally began in Avignon, France on September 11, 1226. To celebrate and give thanks for the victory over the Albigensians in the later battles of the Albigensian Crusade, King Louis VII asked that the sacrament be placed on display at the Chapel of the Holy Cross. The overwhelming number of adorers brought the local bishop, Pierre de Corbie, to suggest that the exposition be continued indefinitely. With the permission of Pope Honorius III, the idea was ratified and the adoration continued there practically uninterrupted until the chaos of the French Revolution halted it from 1792 until the efforts of the Confraternity of Penitents-Gris brought it back in 1829.[4] Twenty years later, the Venerable Leo Dupont initiated the nightly adoration of the Blessed Sacrament in Tours in 1849, from where it spread within France.

The adoration of the Eucharist within France grew in this period and there were interactions between Catholic figures who were enthusiastic about spreading the Eucharist e.g. Leo Dupont and Saint Peter Julian Eymard, who formed the Congregation of the Blessed Sacrament in 1858.[6] The same year, Eyemard (also known as the Apostle of the Eucharist) and sister Marguerite Guillot formed the Servants of the Blessed Sacrament which now maintains houses on several continents where continuous Eucharistic adoration takes place. Interestingly, this time period in France saw the growth of a parallel Catholic devotion, namely the Devotion to the Holy Face of Jesus which was started in 1844 in Tours by Sister Marie of St Peter, was promoted by Leo Dupont and was approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885.

Mother Mechtilde of the Blessed Sacrament pioneered perpetual adoration of the Eucharist on request of Père Picotte. The Benedictine convent, founded for this purpose, opened in France on March 25, 1654.

Another common early practice of adoration is Quarantore an exercise of devotion in which continuous prayer is made for forty hours before the exposed Blessed Sacrament. This is said to have started in Milan in May 1537.

At 131 years and counting, the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration have been praying nonstop longer than anyone in the United States. The practice began on August 1, 1878, at 11 a.m. and continues to this date.

The World’s largest Monstrance can be found in Chicago where an adoration chapel is under construction which will be the focus of 24-hour Eucharistic Adoration where there will be no liturgies or vocal prayers, either by individuals or groups as the space will be strictly meant for private meditation and contemplation. This Sanctuary devoted to the The Divine Mercy is being constructed adjacent to Church of St. Stanislaus Kostka, one of the city’s famed Polish Cathedrals

Summary: Eucharist Adoration have its origins in the Monasteries.

 

[firstmode]

ANSWER:

The practice of adoration traces its roots to the fact that in monasteries and convents the Blessed Sacrament was an integral part of the structure of cloistered life. From the beginning of community life the unconsecrated bread and wine were originally kept in a special room, just off the sanctuary but separated from the church where the Divine Liturgy or Mass was offered, stemming from the standard practice of having a skeuophylakion which was found in cathedral and parish churches, an architecturally separate building or room where the deacons prepared the bread and wine before the liturgy in a service developed in the East called the proskomedia.

One of the first possible references to reserving the Blessed Sacrament for adoration is found in a life of St. Basil (who died in 379). Basil is said to have divided the Eucharistic Bread into three parts when he celebrated the Divine Liturgy in the monastery. One part he consumed, the second part he gave to the monks, and the third he placed in a golden dove suspended over the altar. It is more likely, however, that this separate portion was simply for the purpose of reserving the sacrament for distribution in contexts in which a communicant could not attend the Divine Liturgy, which is a standard practice throughout the ancient churches, even those who do not practice extra-liturgical Eucharistic adoration. In Eastern Christianity, the sort of extra-liturgical adoration which developed in the West has never been part of the Eastern liturgy which St. Basil celebrated, but a liturgy for adoration does exist, involving psalms and placing a covered diskos with the Sacred Species on the altar. This is befitting the Eastern custom of veiling those things deemed sacred from human eyes.

The Franciscan archives credit Saint Francis of Assisi (who died in 1226) for starting Eucharistic Adoration in Italy. The lay practice of adoration formally began in Avignon, France on September 11, 1226. To celebrate and give thanks for the victory over the Albigensians in the later battles of the Albigensian Crusade, King Louis VII asked that the sacrament be placed on display at the Chapel of the Holy Cross. The overwhelming number of adorers brought the local bishop, Pierre de Corbie, to suggest that the exposition be continued indefinitely. With the permission of Pope Honorius III, the idea was ratified and the adoration continued there practically uninterrupted until the chaos of the French Revolution halted it from 1792 until the efforts of the Confraternity of Penitents-Gris brought it back in 1829.[4] Twenty years later, the Venerable Leo Dupont initiated the nightly adoration of the Blessed Sacrament in Tours in 1849, from where it spread within France.

The adoration of the Eucharist within France grew in this period and there were interactions between Catholic figures who were enthusiastic about spreading the Eucharist e.g. Leo Dupont and Saint Peter Julian Eymard, who formed the Congregation of the Blessed Sacrament in 1858.[6] The same year, Eyemard (also known as the Apostle of the Eucharist) and sister Marguerite Guillot formed the Servants of the Blessed Sacrament which now maintains houses on several continents where continuous Eucharistic adoration takes place. Interestingly, this time period in France saw the growth of a parallel Catholic devotion, namely the Devotion to the Holy Face of Jesus which was started in 1844 in Tours by Sister Marie of St Peter, was promoted by Leo Dupont and was approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885.

Mother Mechtilde of the Blessed Sacrament pioneered perpetual adoration of the Eucharist on request of Père Picotte. The Benedictine convent, founded for this purpose, opened in France on March 25, 1654.

Another common early practice of adoration is Quarantore an exercise of devotion in which continuous prayer is made for forty hours before the exposed Blessed Sacrament. This is said to have started in Milan in May 1537.

At 131 years and counting, the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration have been praying nonstop longer than anyone in the United States. The practice began on August 1, 1878, at 11 a.m. and continues to this date.

The World’s largest Monstrance can be found in Chicago where an adoration chapel is under construction which will be the focus of 24-hour Eucharistic Adoration where there will be no liturgies or vocal prayers, either by individuals or groups as the space will be strictly meant for private meditation and contemplation. This Sanctuary devoted to the The Divine Mercy is being constructed adjacent to Church of St. Stanislaus Kostka, one of the city’s famed Polish Cathedrals

Summary: Eucharist Adoration have its origins in the Monasteries.

Oh ok, so Eucharist Adoration started in 1226 A.D… Thanks for the info.

 

[Zundrah]

:console:

Well, I am really tolerant. And, I think there is a lot to learn here. Don’t worry about people not agreeing with your theology. Just remember that people do differ strongly on religion and that will create heated topics. I sometimes just log off and do something else for a while and then come back on when I clear my mind from the more heated topics.

Strawberryjam, I was thinking abiout you yesterday! I have missed you! Do you remember me?

 

[Thorwald]

The belief of the Trinity is not 4 figures or 3. It is three Persons, God, the Father, God, the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three Divine Persons but One God. I find your analysis on the Trinity completely erroneous, especially when you said, “Both the Lord God Almighty, and his Only begotten Son…” They are one not separate…

As for your own private revelation, I raise some doubt about your visions.

Before I had the two visions and the dream, my understanding of The Trinity and The Godhead was the same as yours. This understanding, is held by Christianity, in general. Unfortunately, no one has prayed to God in sincerity enough, to receive the proper understanding.

Isaiah 44:6 defines The Godhead. The first figure, is The Father’s Son (The Lord God Almighty). The second figure, is Jesus Christ (The Lord of Hosts and The Lamb of God…The Redeemer). Isaiah chpt 43 refers to the first figure. The Lord God Almighty is the creator. He is our Father in heaven. He ‘begot’ Jesus, before He created anything. He provided for the redemption of His creation, before creating anything. Rev chpt 4 refers to the Lord God Almighty. Rev chpt 5 has The Lamb (Jesus Christ) taking the sealed book from the right hand of The Lord God Almighty. Both are on the throne at the end of Revelation. It is after the reconciliation of The Lord God Almighty’s kingdom, that The Lord God Almighty has to submit Himself and His Kingdom, unto The Father.

The Trinity consists of The Father, The Son (The Lord God Almighty) and The Holy Ghost (which proceedeth from The Father). When the Son begot Jesus, He created the name ‘GOD’ to cover the combination of Himself and His Son Jesus Christ. We now end up with The Father, God (The Son and His Son) and The Holy Ghost. This is the meaning of Christ being referred to in Revelation, as, “the beginning of the creation of God.”

The Word of God, refers to both The Lord God Almighty and Jesus Christ. Both are part of ‘God’. Even Christ says, “and the Word which ye hear, is not mine, but The Father’s which sent me.” He is referring to His Father (Our Father in heaven), The Lord God Almighty.

One of the main purposes of my second vision, was to ‘unveil’ the above understanding to me. I saw both Christ, and His Father (They are identical in all ways). The Father and The Holy Ghost were present, but I was not allowed to see them. The Father controlled the vision, not God.

I know that the above sounds totally unbelievable. After receiving the vision, I was in great fear. My whole beliefs were being turned upside down. God had a hard time convincing me that what I had just witnessed, was in fact true. I thought that satan was trying to make me a false prophet. God then made me realize, that satan cannot make The Lord God Almighty or Jesus Christ appear. If He could, then much of the scriptures would be useless.

God Bless.

 

[Liraco]

I know that the above sounds totally unbelievable. After receiving the vision, I was in great fear. My whole beliefs were being turned upside down. God had a hard time convincing me that what I had just witnessed, was in fact true. I thought that satan was trying to make me a false prophet. God then made me realize, that satan cannot make The Lord God Almighty or Jesus Christ appear. If He could, then much of the scriptures would be useless.

You haven’t answered my questions as your thoughts lead me to believe that you think Jesus’ promise of upholding His Church from the devil has failed. You speak as if there were no valid Church anymore, contradicting what He said. Could you please read Jesus’ promise about the Church again and tell me what your answer to that is?

As for your explanation on 4 figures, it makes no sense to me. You say there’s Jesus and “His” Father, along with the Holy Spirit and THE Father? In other words, 2 Fathers?

I await your answers and continue praying for you. God bless.

 

[Brooke]

In my methodist church we only did communion like maybe one or twice every six months! We didn’t even use wine, instead it was grape juice or pomegramate juice. We didn’t even have a special cup, instead we used many plastic disposible cups. There was not even the unleavened, instead it was normal bread…

No confession, no prayer room for you to go in alone… nothing. It was very social but just not enough.

Roman Catholic Church is so much better for you, confession, prayer room; one for christ, one for mary. A place to light a candle in memory of a decese, an eternal prayer or a plea to God, Christ of for a miracle during alot of suffering.

…I have missed out out on all this for so long (I never knew the Catholic faith) I feel sad for those who will not turn to our church for their spiritruality to grow and be nuertured.

Please tell me the other bad things about my denomination to keep me from ever being so stupid as to go back there… or how about other stuff about catholicism that I don’t know about yet?

P.S. I am currently taking RICA classes. :yeah_me: (yay me!)

xXX zundrah XXx

you are so lucky that the holy spirit guided you… to find the way. the truth thea real life. i wish you the best. pray for my friend. so that he may also find his way with the help pf the holy spirit

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Before I had the two visions and the dream, my understanding of The Trinity and The Godhead was the same as yours. This understanding, is held by Christianity, in general. Unfortunately, no one has prayed to God in sincerity enough, to receive the proper understanding.

Isaiah 44:6 defines The Godhead. The first figure, is The Father’s Son (The Lord God Almighty). The second figure, is Jesus Christ (The Lord of Hosts and The Lamb of God…The Redeemer). Isaiah chpt 43 refers to the first figure. The Lord God Almighty is the creator. He is our Father in heaven. He ‘begot’ Jesus, before He created anything. He provided for the redemption of His creation, before creating anything. Rev chpt 4 refers to the Lord God Almighty. Rev chpt 5 has The Lamb (Jesus Christ) taking the sealed book from the right hand of The Lord God Almighty. Both are on the throne at the end of Revelation. It is after the reconciliation of The Lord God Almighty’s kingdom, that The Lord God Almighty has to submit Himself and His Kingdom, unto The Father.

The Trinity consists of The Father, The Son (The Lord God Almighty) and The Holy Ghost (which proceedeth from The Father). When the Son begot Jesus, He created the name ‘GOD’ to cover the combination of Himself and His Son Jesus Christ. We now end up with The Father, God (The Son and His Son) and The Holy Ghost. This is the meaning of Christ being referred to in Revelation, as, “the beginning of the creation of God.”

The Word of God, refers to both The Lord God Almighty and Jesus Christ. Both are part of ‘God’. Even Christ says, “and the Word which ye hear, is not mine, but The Father’s which sent me.” He is referring to His Father (Our Father in heaven), The Lord God Almighty.

Greetings Thorald; From Gabriel of 12; here are a few items from God’s Word that discredits any new revelations or prophecies after Jesus Christ. Why I find it incredible to accept your personal new teaching that conflicts with the already Gospels of Jesus Christ.

2 John 7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh; such is the deceitful one and the antichrist. 5
9 Anyone who is so “progressive” 7 as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son.
.

**1 Timothy 6; 3 Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching
4 is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions,
5 and mutual friction among people with corrupted minds, who are deprived of the truth, supposing religion to be a means of gain.
6 Indeed, religion with contentment is a great gain.
**

**2 Peter 2: 1 There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their licentious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
3 In their greed they will exploit you with fabrications, but from of old their condemnation has not been idle and their destruction does not sleep. **

1John 2: 18 Children, it is the last hour; 9 and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.
20 But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, 11 and you all have knowledge.
22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.
24 Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 13
25 And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life.
26 I write you these things about those who would deceive you.

**1 John 4: 1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,
3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. **4 You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5 They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them.
6We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

**Galatians 1: 6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! **
9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! 11 Now I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not of human origin.
12 For I did not receive it from a human being, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;
B]From your interpretations from Revelations, you have confused the writings. When the Catholic church put the book together, it came to us transcribed from Aramaic, to bad Greek. I can see when you confuse the earlier manuscripts coming from the early Hebrew mindset when John the Baptist was proclaiming the Messiah coming, from this earlier time of Revelations Jesus had not revealed the Trinity yet. You have mixed the translation from the bad Greek to Vulgate (common language) after the Christians came to the knowledge of the blessed Trinity.

Thus your interpretation is trying to justify writings that may appear conflicting but do not, they actually compliment each other in different phases of understanding from an earlier Hebrew community about the Trinity, with the same community after Revelations of Jesus comes to the fuller understanding of the Trinity, (Thus the book of Revelations) from which you recieved at once but changed it for another one;

If one is not careful to this study, Revelations can bring curses instead of blessings from God, if one adds or subtracts from the Book of Revelations.

Peace be with you

 

[Thorwald]

You haven’t answered my questions as your thoughts lead me to believe that you think Jesus’ promise of upholding His Church from the devil has failed. You speak as if there were no valid Church anymore, contradicting what He said. Could you please read Jesus’ promise about the Church again and tell me what your answer to that is?

As for your explanation on 4 figures, it makes no sense to me. You say there’s Jesus and “His” Father, along with the Holy Spirit and THE Father? In other words, 2 Fathers?

I await your answers and continue praying for you. God bless.

If you notice in the scriptures, it was the SON that created all things, and it was for His enjoyment/pleasure that all things were created. He must also reconcile His kingdom, before submitting Himself and His kingdom unto the Father. We know by The Lord’s Prayer, that it is our Father in heaven’s kingdom that is coming. We also know by Isaiah 44:6 (and chpt 43), that The Lord God Almighty created all things. We are told this again in Rev chpt 4.

We are told in John, that no man has ever seen ‘The Father’ (or the Holy Ghost…as He really is). There is an error in the scriptures. It also states that no man has ever seen God. Many have seen God. Numbers 12:6 refers to God. We have been told in the Psalms, and in the N/T, that Jesus was seen sitting on the right hand of God. The only way to ‘see this’, is if the person also saw God. In Rev chpt 4 & 5, and later chapters, both are seen by John.

 

[Thorwald]

You haven’t answered my questions as your thoughts lead me to believe that you think Jesus’ promise of upholding His Church from the devil has failed. You speak as if there were no valid Church anymore, contradicting what He said. Could you please read Jesus’ promise about the Church again and tell me what your answer to that is?

Jesus’ true Church is made up of ‘true Christians’. These Christians do not create and print doctrines and Bibles that are different than His teachings. These Christians do not create their own saints/idols/rosaries/etc., etc. They follow the Word of God that was witnessed as being the truth, by Jesus Christ, Himself. Anyone that ‘adds to or deletes from’ the witnessed truth, is guilty of the same crime as Aaron’s two sons.

Do you know the ‘hearts’ of all these man-made saints that the Catholic Church has created? Are you certain that God has also ‘elevated’ these people to the level of Saint? Are you certain that any or all are not guilty of rape, deceit, lies, false prophesy, murder, homosexualism, etc., etc. It is understood by your posting(s) and those of others, that you believe this to be so. How do you really know? Has God put His ‘stamp’ on your selections?

We also see, that the Catholic Church has accumulated great wealth. Many ‘junk items’ have been purchased. Is it not written, that all these things are going to be destroyed by God in the future. Why are these funds/tithes not instead, being used to help the poor? Is this not what they were given to the Church for? Is their purpose not to ‘feed His sheep’? Should they not be used for better ‘Godly’ spiritual and carnal purposes?

Is it not written, that the apostles and disciples were to go forward, and not worry about how they were to be clothed, fed or lodged? Were the Israelites not told to ‘not store’ the manna from heaven, because it would spoil? I hope that you understand what I am getting at. The world is in dire straights. There are people starving, and going to their deaths without salvation, while the Catholic Church plays around with their accumulated riches, false doctines, self-annointments and proclamations of ‘how Godly they are’.

I guess that you know my opinion.

 

[happyconvert]

Jesus’ true Church is made up of ‘true Christians’. These Christians do not create and print doctrines and Bibles that are different than His teachings. These Christians do not create their own saints/idols/rosaries/etc., etc. They follow the Word of God that was witnessed as being the truth, by Jesus Christ, Himself. Anyone that ‘adds to or deletes from’ the witnessed truth, is guilty of the same crime as Aaron’s two sons.

Do you know the ‘hearts’ of all these man-made saints that the Catholic Church has created? Are you certain that God has also ‘elevated’ these people to the level of Saint? Are you certain that any or all are not guilty of rape, deceit, lies, false prophesy, murder, homosexualism, etc., etc. It is understood by your posting(s) and those of others, that you believe this to be so. How do you really know? Has God put His ‘stamp’ on your selections?

We also see, that the Catholic Church has accumulated great wealth. Many ‘junk items’ have been purchased. Is it not written, that all these things are going to be destroyed by God in the future. Why are these funds/tithes not instead, being used to help the poor? Is this not what they were given to the Church for? Is their purpose not to ‘feed His sheep’? Should they not be used for better ‘Godly’ spiritual and carnal purposes?

Is it not written, that the apostles and disciples were to go forward, and not worry about how they were to be clothed, fed or lodged? Were the Israelites not told to ‘not store’ the manna from heaven, because it would spoil? I hope that you understand what I am getting at. The world is in dire straights. There are people starving, and going to their deaths without salvation, while the Catholic Church plays around with their accumulated riches, false doctines, self-annointments and proclamations of ‘how Godly they are’.

I guess that you know my opinion.

It is obvious from all of the questions you pose that you are not really asking questions to get answers, but you are simply trying to make your point. Yes, we can “know your opinion” from what you have written. I would hope that you would go back to each of your questions and try to find the answers - the real answers - not just your opinions. I hope that you are seeking the truth. It is easy to criticize and point out the errors that you see in what men have done. That is something that the devil does with glee. The important thing for you, dear Thorwald, is to seek the Truth in all things. Jesus is The Truth, and He will show you the Way.

 

[Thorwald]

It is obvious from all of the questions you pose that you are not really asking questions to get answers, but you are simply trying to make your point. Yes, we can “know your opinion” from what you have written. I would hope that you would go back to each of your questions and try to find the answers - the real answers - not just your opinions. I hope that you are seeking the truth. It is easy to criticize and point out the errors that you see in what men have done. That is something that the devil does with glee. The important thing for you, dear Thorwald, is to seek the Truth in all things. Jesus is The Truth, and He will show you the Way.

I love the way in which you avoid the material that I present. It has all of the earmarks of, “How dare you question my faith?” I am sure that the scribes and Pharisees thought the same way. We all know what Christ thought of this.

Look around you. Evaluate what I have written. The Protestant faith contains all kinds of Bibles, doctrines and beliefs. Everyone proclaims, that their faith is the right one, and all others are in ‘darkness’. I have attended many churches (including the Catholic faith). I have discussed many topics/scriptures with many different ‘teachers’ of many one-God faiths. You have no idea, how much ‘teaching/Bible studies’ are mere ‘jangling’. The majority do not really understand the scriptures, nor do they care. They simply follow their crowd (whatever this entails). We are dealing with spiritual life and death. We are going to be judged against what Christ has witnessed. We are without excuses. We will not be going before God as a ‘congregation’, but rather, as an individual.

You find exception to what I write, and yet, are these things not written in the scriptures? If you deny what I write, are you not denying the Word of God…and God is The Word?