Catholics worship Mary, crosses, cards, and bread?

[Little_Mary]

Regarding statues, crucifixes and the like, don’t forget that 2,000 years ago and specifically here in the first several centuries after Christ’s death, few people could read and write. Crucifixes and statues were used as visuals to help the illiterate understand and remember, when being taught about Jesus.

Today, 2000 years later, they are still around. Tradition? Yes. A beautiful thing? Yes. I can tell you that I, personally, pray more often throughout the day because I pass a crucifix on the wall because it is a constant reminder of my faith, and it helps me stay focused on the important things. How could anyone say that is a bad thing?

 

[Sherlock]

Wormwood,

You wrote: “As I have mentioned in other threads, Jesus’ church was " not in a building of wood and stone” it was outside in God’s majesty."

Then why did Jesus drive the money changers out of what He called “My Father’s house”? Why did the Jews of the Old Covenant build a temple in the first place? Why weren’t they out in the great outdoors instead?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

QUOTE=theresepio I transferred by necessity from my Parochial School to a public junior high. Upon hearing I was Catholic, one of my classmates asked, in all seriousness, “Why do Catholics pray to statues?” Apparently he believed it because some Reverend-Jim-Bob-Whatsisname told him so

I think this is it in a nutshell. People learn these misconceptions from people they know and trust who learned them from people they knew and trusted who learned them from people they knew and trusted and so on back about 500 years. Is there any way the cycle can be broken?

 

[Little_Mary]

I think this is it in a nutshell. People learn these misconceptions from people they know and trust who learned them from people they knew and trusted who learned them from people they knew and trusted and so on back about 500 years. Is there any way the cycle can be broken?

:clapping:

I’m so glad you described this cycle. It is all too true (in my opinion). I wish, if nothing else, there was some way to ‘regulate’ what is taught about the Catholic faith in every theology/religion/church history/you-name-it classroom. But then, I’ve been called an idealist more than once

Several weeks ago I started a thread that touched on this question - in the Non-Catholic Religions forum entitled Protestant Ministers. In that thread I was criticized for being too general regarding what protestants teach/believe, and I apologize for that, but I still think that at least some protestants have been given erroneous information over the years. Oh that it would end!!

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Wormwood:

Such ornate religious structures are a product of Roman influence and not of Jesus. As I have mentioned in other threads, Jesus’ church was " not in a building of wood and stone" it was outside in God’s majesty. Statues and art are products of man and symbols of wealth, not objects of piety. You can call it what you want, but if you utter a prayer to anyone other than God, that is polytheism.

You hold a common misunderstanding, that being the word “pray” can be used in one and only one way and the is in reference to talking to God.

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That IS a definition of “pray” but not the only one. As has been explained here “pray” can mean simply “a humble request”:

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**Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: **'prA
**Function: **verb
**Etymology: **Middle English, from Old French preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frAgEn to ask, Sanskrit prcchati he asks
**Date: **13th century
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Notice that definition #2 is DIFFERENT from definition #1. The word “pray” can correctly be applied the way that Catholics used it, simply asking one in heaven to pray FOR them. They do NOT pray TO them as one prays to God.

You aren’t praying to Mary or St. Peter that a judge have relief, when you pray to these people you are asking for some kind of intervention in your life or the life of someone close to you (indirectly your life). This is polytheism. If i had a statue of apollo in my house, and everytime something bad happened I asked apollo to please intervene or talk to God for me, is that not polytheism? BTW I am not a protestant either, as I believe them to also be too materialistic and earthly to truley impart divine wisdom. So protestants aren’t the only ones who feel this way…I have nothing to gain by condemning your practices, as I do not intend to convert your followers, I just wanted to offer an outside perspective

Asking someone in heaven to pray for you is no more polytheism than if you were to ask me to pray for you.

 

[Luke24]

You see how wrong you are! Don’t you read your Bible? How can you claim you gave us the Bible when in fact the Bible plainly says it is from God? I will admit that because it was copied into Latin certain of the believers saw in it that we were to have it in our own language and possession; for that I am greatful to the Lord and William Tyndale as well as others. I believe the Guttenburg press was the best man made invention. Martin Luther’s 95 Thesis still stands true to this day and God has richly blessed those who read His Word. God preserved His Word.
Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
2 Timothy 3:16-17 ** All scripture is given by inspiration of God**, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Peter 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
All. 2Sa 23:2; Mt 21:42; 22:31-32; 26:54,56; Mr 12:24,36; Joh 10:35; Ac 1:16; 28:25; Ro 3:2; 15:4; Ga 3:8; Heb 3:7; 4:12; 2Pe 1:19-21; and is. Ps 19:7-11; 119:97-104,130; Mic 2:7; Ac 20:20,27; 1Co 12:7; Eph 4:11-16; for doctrine. 2Ti 3:10
for reproof. 2Ti 4:2; Pr 6:23; 15:10,31; Joh 3:20; Eph 5:11-13; Heb 11:1; for instruction. 2Ti 2:25; De 4:36; Ne 9:20; Ps 119:9,11; Mt 13:52; Ac 18:25; Ro 2:20
Actually all of Psalm 119 is about the Word of God.
1 Peter 1:13-25 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

May The Almighty Father bless you from His Word,
Luke 24

 

[Theodora]

Mike C:

What was VATII about? Ecumenism. What happened? Many non-Catholics are still ignorant about the Catholic faith as they were 100 years ago. I can understand 100 years ago, but with TV and the internet, I don’t understand. But people will continue to be ignorant.

It is a shame that, because of Ecumenism, many Catholics have become less Catholic and more Protestant in their way of thinking.

Theodora

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Luke24:

You see how wrong you are! Don’t you read your Bible? How can you claim you gave us the Bible when in fact the Bible plainly says it is from God?

May The Almighty Father bless you from His Word,
Luke 24

I’m quite sure that no one has claimed that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible INSTEAD of God but rather that God gave us the Bible THROUGH the Catholic Church.

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If not the Catholic Church, through whom do you believe God has given us the Bible? Thanks!

 

[Luke24]

You hold a common misunderstanding, that being the word “pray” can be used in one and only one way and the is in reference to talking to God.

That IS a definition of “pray” but not the only one. As has been explained here “pray” can mean simply “a humble request”:

Main Entry: pray
**Pronunciation: **'prA
**Function: **verb
**Etymology: **Middle English, from Old French preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frAgEn to ask, Sanskrit prcchati he asks
**Date: **13th century
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Notice that definition #2 is DIFFERENT from definition #1. The word “pray” can correctly be applied the way that Catholics used it, simply asking one in heaven to pray FOR them. They do NOT pray TO them as one prays to God.

Asking someone in heaven to pray for you is no more polytheism than if you were to ask me to pray for you.

The Bible instructs to pray to the Father through Jesus Christ.
Matthew 6:9-13 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Where does it say to pray to Mary or any other person who may or may not be in heaven?

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Necromancy is the practice of calling on dead people’s spirits which amounts to the same thing you parctice when you call on these departed ones.

We have an intercessor and He is Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 7:22-28 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: **But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. **Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Heb 7:25
he is. Heb 2:18; 5:7; Isa 45:22; 63:1; Da 3:15,17; 6:20; Joh 5:37-40; 10:29,30; Eph 3:20; Php 3:21; 2Ti 1:12; Jude 1:24
to the uttermost. or, evermore. come. Heb 13:25; 11:6; Job 22:17; 23:3; Ps 68:31-32; Isa 45:24; Jer 3:22
by him. Heb 13:15; Joh 14:6; Ro 5:2; Eph 2:18; 3:12; 1Jo 2:1-2
ever. Heb 7:8,16,24
to make. Heb 9:24; Isa 53:12; 59:16; Da 9:16; Joh 14:13; 16:23; 17:9-26; Ro 8:34; 1Ti 2:5; 1Jo 2:1-2; Re 8:3-4

 

[Shoshana]

Wormwood,

I see you are arguing about the same thing on two different threads. Well, I thought I would also double my answer

So we meet again! Wormwood, how would you deal with the Hebrews and the Jews of today who pray at the tomb of Rachel, Davil, Abraham? Are they praying to other gods ???..you better not tell that to a Jew! I have seen their fervour and piety as I have been in Israel twice. What about the Wailing Wall???..how stupid it must look to stand at a wall, rocking back and forth with a prayer book in your hand. I guess they must be adoring stone also …How about, while in the desert, the pole with a serpent on it built by Moses that the people had to look upon to be saved from snake bites? God must be directing Moses to adore a pole with a snake coiled around it…I guess, in His wisdom, He must want us to have many other little gods other than Himself!. It would be wise to know your OT, my friend. :tsktsk:

Your arguments make no sense other than in the light of **protest-**ism. As someone said, steep yourself in history, and praise God, you just may see the Light! Your arguments are superficial…please put some depth into it.

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Luke24:

The Bible instructs to pray to the Father through Jesus Christ.
Matthew 6:9-13 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father

which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Where does it say to pray to Mary or any other person who may or may not be in heaven?

Keep in mind, to “pray to” Mary is NOT the same as to “pray to” God. Again, in English there are several meanings of the word “pray”. Here’s the definition of the “pray to God” kind of prayer:

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**Main Entry: pray
**2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Here’s the definition of the “pray to Mary” kind of prayer:

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**Main Entry: pray
**1 : to make a request in a humble manner

See? This perfectly valid use of the word “pray” means that praying to Mary is NOT the same as praying to God but, simply put, a prayer request. It’s exactly the same as you asking me to pray for you. Gotta be careful not to impose your church’s limited use of the word “pray” on everyone. Other definitions do exist and are perfectly valid.

Necromancy is the practice of calling on dead people’s spirits which amounts to the same thing you parctice when you call on these departed ones.

You’re definition of “necromancy” isn’t quite complete:

**Main Entry: nec·ro·man·cy
Pronunciation: **'ne-kr&-"man(t)-sE
**Function: **noun
**Etymology: **alteration of Middle English nigromancie, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin nigromantia, by folk etymology from Late Latin necromantia, from Late Greek nekromanteia, from Greek nekr- + -manteia -mancy
**Date: **1522
1 : conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

Those Catholics who so choose are simply asking the person in heaven to pray FOR them. They are NOT asking them to magically reveal the future or influence the course of events. It’s not necromancy no matter how you slice it.

 

[MaryChelan]

Hi, I used to live in the U District, friend, and attended Blessed Sacrament. You, too? Anyway, I find this issue curious, mainly because it is so often misunderstood. We are surrounded by so many images in Western culture, images that are often quite disturbing, so I have always found it odd that members of other religions find our use of images strange, especially because our use of the images of Jesus on the Cross, Mary, etc are so beautiful. Seeing Our Lord on the Cross and meditating on this is very powerful for this Catholic Christian. All of our Catholic Christian images speak powerfully to our hearts, and this is how I explain our tradition to those who have difficulty understanding. It is not that we are worshipping statues or inanimate objects; rather we are worshipping the images’ actual existence, their lives, their hearts in our Catholicism. The statues and crosses and cards and bread are the *reminders *of their existence and power in our lives as Catholic Christians. To be surrounded by so many beautiful images moves me deeply during prayer and during Mass. I cannot imagine praying without them! God bless!
Mary

 

[mrS4ntA]

Luke24:

The Bible instructs to pray to the Father through Jesus Christ.
Matthew 6:9-13 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
…

Oh and you suppose those in heaven, those beatified with eternal union with the Father, would will anything contrary to His will? who’s making the absurd statement here…?

note too that the doxology (for thine is…) is only there in the King James version, it was not on the original manuscript.

 

[ralphinal]

Ok Luke24,

First, have you ever asked someone to pray for you, as St Paul instructed us to pray for each other?

Second, when was the Cannon of the Bible Fixed? 5th century. From the Death of Jesus until that point, what did the Faitful have?

 

[Luke24]

2 Peter 3:1-18 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
2Pe 1:19-21; Lu 1:70; 24:27,44; Ac 3:18,24-26; 10:43; 28:23; 1Pe 1:10-12; Re 19:10; 2Pe 3:18; 2:21; Eph 2:20; 1Jo 4:6; Jude 1:17; 2Pe 3:18; Ro 2:4; 1Ti 1:16; 1Pe 3:20; Ac 15:25; Ex 31:3; 35:31,35; 1Ki 3:12; 4:29; Ezr 7:25; Pr 2:6-7; Ec 2:26; Da 2:20-21; Lu 21:15; Ac 7:10; 1Co 2:13; 12:8; Jas 1:5; 3:17
Notice it does not say and the traditions of men? This also proves that whatever Scripture the prophets and apostles had already written at the time Peter wrote his epistles were esteemed as canon long before the catholic chruch came to be.

 

[Luke24]

And in answer to your first question yes I do ask fellow believers to pray for me but they are living people not dead. There is a difference you know and we are to ask God not dead people.

James 1:5-8 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. **A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. **

 

[mrS4ntA]

Luke24:

And in answer to your first question yes I do ask fellow believers to pray for me but they are living people not dead. There is a difference you know and we are to ask God not dead people.

the saints in heaven are more alive than you or me… they are alive in Christ, united with God…

 

[mrS4ntA]

our God is God of the living, not of the dead

 

[Little_Mary]

2Notice it does not say and the traditions of men? This also proves that whatever Scripture the prophets and apostles had already written at the time Peter wrote his epistles were esteemed as canon long before the catholic chruch came to be.

Huh? Methinks you need to review your history here, friend. The Catholic church “came to be” as you choose to put it, very shortly after Christ’s death - on the Pentecost.

“The bible came out of the church, not the church out of the bible” (Thanks, Katholikos)

 

[ralphinal]

Luke24:

This also proves that whatever Scripture the prophets and apostles had already written at the time Peter wrote his epistles were esteemed as canon long before the catholic chruch came to be.

Not possible, as Peter was the first pope and Jesus established the Catholic Church