Catholics worship Mary, crosses, cards, and bread?

[Les_Richardson]

stephenthomas:

i thought that after vatican ii we had gotten rid of most of that idolatry stufff and limited ourselves to worshipping plants and banners.

lol!

 

[Les_Richardson]

MargaretCortona:

I had a college student staying at my house for a while this summer - Pentecostal background, no knowledge of the Catholic faith. When the subject of my being Catholic came up (when I had to explain why I would be up making noise at 2am, getting ready to go to my hour of perpetual adoration), I commented that I was a convert, and knew that there were a lot of thing about the faith that protestants have misconceptions about, and offered to answer any questions she might have. The first, of course, was about Catholics worshipping Mary. When I explained that Catholics don’t worship Mary, we honor her, the next question was, “then Catholics don’t pray to Mary?”

I had to go into the definition of prayer - didn’t use the Shakespeare quote given earlier in this thread, but did mention the old usage of “I pray thee”, or “prithee” in early colonial writings, or the common Southernism “pray tell”. I got a laugh when I commented that when I used to practice law and draft complaints, each complaint ended with a “prayer for relief” to the judge - and no attorney in the world thinks the judge is God! Anyway, she accepted the idea that while prayer is often directed to God as part of worship, the concept of prayer is broader than that, and that her asking her parents or a family friend to pray for her is in a sense a prayer - a petition - and that is the sense in which we pray to Mary and the saints. Further, if you are going to ask someone to pray for you, you ask someone you know will do so, not the neighborhood atheist - you ask the “prayingest” person you know, and who better than those who are already with God for all eternity?

So to make a long story short, question followed question, I did my best to answer (drawing on Catholic Answers material, books by Karl Keating, books and tapes by Scott Hahn and others, watching EWTN, etc.) and my student friend now attends mass every week, went to our diocesan Eucharistic Congress, spends time in our adoration chapel, prays the rosary, and is set to start OCIA in September, with me as her sponsor!

Praise and thanks be to God!!!

 

[Les_Richardson]

KennySe:

I agree.

This reminds me of an early historical heresy, where the physical is evil and the spiritual is good.

There’s a name of it, but I forget.

The proponents were into all sorts of carnal sin, because, to them, it was what the physical was.

I’m not saying that Protestants are into all the teachings of that historical heresy.
But many are into the notion that physcial is bad and spiritual is good.

And yet, the Word became flesh and died and rose in His flesh and took His flesh with Him into heaven. That same Jesus will return.

Gnosticism I think it was, and there are some around today.

 

[Wormwood]

I did not not mean to cause an uproar, someone asked why people felt that way, and i offered a perspective. I will try to answer everyone.

well, assuming that Apollo is an actual human being already a saint in heaven, yes, you can do that and no, that’s not polytheism, since the ultimate goal of your prayer is God Himself and not Apollo…

OK point taken. Say it was Apollo Creed or buddha. Why would this possession intervein on my behalf? Why not just ask God myself? To me it seems using an intermediary is (if not false worship) like trying to pull something; getting a response based on something other than my own merits.

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how people can be so blatantly critical about true Christians that hold to the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles, (I am not talking denomination here) and yet these critics never once use Scripture to back up their statements. I would like to challenge you all to a draw!

I don’t like to use many specific refrences because people can debate the semantics for eternity. It seems most people have a grasp of the greater message but the break down of tedious details causes turbulant (even violent!) behavior. And I do not wish to “duel” you with scripture because that would suggest I feel I am better than you or know more than you and that is not the case. Nor do I feel my opinions are anymore valid than the next person’s.

but an image or statue of Mary, Christ is completely different. We don´t need to a genius to understand it

Obviously not!! JK … no it isn’t building these things I was refering to, it is offering prayer to anything other than God himself.

Is this the same Wormwood from ‘The Screwtape Letters’ ?

or the Wormwood from the OT??:

WORMWOOD: (Hb la’nah, GK apsinthos), the plant Artemisia. Because of its bitter taste, it is employed as a metaphor for sin. (Dt 29:17); Am5:7; 6:12); divine punishment (Je 9:14; 23:15; Lam 3:15, 19); disaster (Pro 5:4). The star of Apc 8:11 named Wormwood falls from the sky and renders water poisonous.

I am impressed!! No one else has caught the reference, to my knowledge. Wormwood from the OT as I’m sure you’ve already concluded. Check revelations as well… but Je 9:14; 23:15, and Pro 5:4 sum it up. I assure you it is not a sacriligious intent. The intended meaning is personal.

 

[Wormwood]

You wrote: “As I have mentioned in other threads, Jesus’ church was " not in a building of wood and stone” it was outside in God’s majesty."

Then why did Jesus drive the money changers out of what He called “My Father’s house”? Why did the Jews of the Old Covenant build a temple in the first place? Why weren’t they out in the great outdoors instead?

Interesting question. If you use the Jews of the old covenant, or Jesus running money changers out of his father’s house(a synagogue) then are you not defending the Jewish practice of indoor service? Then to whom was Jesus refering when he said a church is not made of wood and stone? The interpretation of that passage I hear the most is Jesus meant that the church was within your heart, but why make the distinction unless there was someone who missed his idea of a humble church of the peasantry? God is not confined to elaborate temples, and you needn’t surround yourself with worldly goods to talk to him.

So we meet again! Wormwood, how would you deal with the Hebrews and the Jews of today who pray at the tomb of Rachel, Davil, Abraham? Are they praying to other gods ???..you better not tell that to a Jew! I have seen their fervour and piety as I have been in Israel twice. What about the Wailing Wall???..how stupid it must look to stand at a wall, rocking back and forth with a prayer book in your hand. I guess they must be adoring stone also …How about, while in the desert, the pole with a serpent on it built by Moses that the people had to look upon to be saved from snake bites? God must be directing Moses to adore a pole with a snake coiled around it…I guess, in His wisdom, He must want us to have many other little gods other than Himself!. It would be wise to know your OT, my friend. :tsktsk:

I am not sure how pious it is to have a nemesis on a Catholic discussion forum, but I am always down to discuss. You much like the person before you are using Judaism to defend Catholocism. Actually the Jewish customs sound more easter in origin. Praying to the tombs of their ancestors is actually more like shintoism than polytheism. Although, admittadley, the distinction there is very narrow. Praying facing a wall sounds like common eastern practices involving meditation. Again these are Jewish defenses, not really pertaining to polytheism in Catholicism… perhaps it is you who should brush up on facts. If you need another example of polytheism, think about this: monotheism means one god or deity. Catholicism is actually duelistic (if not polytheistic) because there is a second deity in the form of Satan. This goes back to the idea of Zoroasteranism a god of light and a god of dark. I have heard this refuted by people saying Satan is an angel and not a deity. Yet he weilds god-like power and threatens to undermine the “good” god. They are in eternal struggle. If you must refer to the Jews, how about on this issue. You will see the Jews have no “devil”, no hell, and no statues that it was ok to pray to. You cannot pick and choose what you get to hear. The Jews did have one other thing going for them as well; Jesus. He came as a shepard for the children of ISREAL, not rome.

I hope I responded to everyone that took the time to respond to me.

 

[porthos11]

Luke24:

Rosaries: none
**Crucifixes:**none
pope(s): none
Luke 24

Hmmm… Okay where in Scripture can you find:

Trinity…nowhere
Incarnation…none
Salvation by faith ALONE…none
Authority is Bible ALONE…none

Of course you won’t find anything of the sort. James clearly states we are NOT saved by faith alone (check the other excellent threads for the reasons) and St. Paul says the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth.
Trinity and Incarnation are core concepts of Protestant theology, but based on the above quote, they are unbiblical.

Now, where in Scripture are:

Prayer and counselling phone lines…none
Televangelists…none
Stained glass…uh uh
Air conditioning…nope
Microphones, sound systems…nope
English used in worship services…nah
Inspired translation of the Bible (KJV?, NIV?)…nope
etc.

So based on these things not being in the Bible, yet these items form good part of non-Catholic Christian life, I will have to declare that the way they live and worship is UNBIBLICAL!!! AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha KOFF KOFF

(Sorry couldn’t resist).

Of course, the point is that just because something is not mentioned letra-por-letra in the Bible does not automatically make it unbiblical or wrong.

 

[John_Henry]

Luke24:

You see how wrong you are! Don’t you read your Bible? How can you claim you gave us the Bible when in fact the Bible plainly says it is from God?

Yes, I read my Bible. It was reading my Bible that led me from Protestantism to the Catholic Church. Digressions aside, I note you did not answer which glorious denomination contains the fullness of the truth, according to you. Nor the deficiency of your list of bible references as regards tradition.

As regards your assertion that God gave us the Bible, the simple answer is, “of course he did.” No Catholic would ever deny this. The question is, “How did he give it to us?” And the answer to that question is, “Through the Catholic Church.” It is simple history that there were many other books besides those in the NT that were written, which many early Christians considered inspired. And it is further history that it is the Catholic Church that eventually (in AD 397) decided which books were inspired or not. In other words, the Table of Contents of your NT is nothing more than a Catholic Tradition. A Holy-Spirit inspired tradition, of course, but nevertheless a tradition that emerged from a decision the Catholic Church made in council, approved by the Pope at the time.

 

[John_Henry]

Luke24:

The Bible instructs to pray to the Father through Jesus Christ.

Simply put, it also instructs other Christians to pray for us to the Father through Jesus Christ. As such, we ask Mary to pray for us to the Father through Jesus Christ. Because Mary is a Christian.

 

[John_Henry]

Luke24:

And in answer to your first question yes I do ask fellow believers to pray for me but they are living people not dead. There is a difference you know and we are to ask God not dead people.

God is the God of the living, not the dead. The Christians in heaven are alive, my friend. More alive than you and me. Closer to God than you or me. More holy than you or me.

 

[cmom]

Luke24:

And in answer to your first question yes I do ask fellow believers to pray for me but they are living people not dead. There is a difference you know and we are to ask God not dead people.

James 1:5-8 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. **A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. **

Saints are not dead, they simply lack physical bodies. Souls cannot die.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

2 Peter 3:1-18 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
2Pe 1:19-21; Lu 1:70; 24:27,44; Ac 3:18,24-26; 10:43; 28:23; 1Pe 1:10-12; Re 19:10; 2Pe 3:18; 2:21; Eph 2:20; 1Jo 4:6; Jude 1:17; 2Pe 3:18; Ro 2:4; 1Ti 1:16; 1Pe 3:20; Ac 15:25; Ex 31:3; 35:31,35; 1Ki 3:12; 4:29; Ezr 7:25; Pr 2:6-7; Ec 2:26; Da 2:20-21; Lu 21:15; Ac 7:10; 1Co 2:13; 12:8; Jas 1:5; 3:17
Notice it does not say and the traditions of men? This also proves that whatever Scripture the prophets and apostles had already written at the time Peter wrote his epistles were esteemed as canon long before the catholic chruch came to be.

I’m not sure I understand your point. Why would one supposed that it SHOULD say “traditions of men”?

---

***I think you mean to say that you believe these things were esteemed as SCRIPTURE, not canon. The canon is the inspired list of books in the bible. ***

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Luke24:

And in answer to your first question yes I do ask fellow believers to pray for me but they are living people not dead. There is a difference you know and we are to ask God not dead people.

---

Someone doesn’t cease to be a fellow believer just because they are alive in heaven instead of on earth, do they? If so, on what do you base that belief? Thanks!

 

[Curious]

So based on these things not being in the Bible, yet these items form good part of non-Catholic Christian life, I will have to declare that the way they live and worship is UNBIBLICAL!!! AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha KOFF KOFF

lol porthos. :whacky:

 

[joehardee]

the word of God doesn’t say any worshipping on honoring Mary -

Mary cant go to Jesus on anyones behalf , only Jesus can intercede to the father on your behalf. You all need to read the kjv bible , not the catholic bible which is full of contradictions.

 

[joehardee]

the word of God doesn’t say any thing worshipping on honoring Mary -

Mary cant go to Jesus on anyones behalf , only Jesus can intercede to the father on your behalf. You all need to read the kjv bible , not the catholic bible which is full of contradictions.

 

[John_Henry]

joehardee:

the word of God doesn’t say any worshipping on honoring Mary -

Neither does it say anything about the supremacy of the KJV.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

joehardee:

the word of God doesn’t say any thing worshipping on honoring Mary -

As to worshipping, you’re right. Only God is to be worshipped. We Catholics agree with you there. As to honoring Mary, I’m sure we would agree that it’s not necessary for the bible to specifically say that a particular person can/should be honored in order for honor to be appropriate. The bible doesn’t say that YOU are to be honored, yet I’m sure that you have been honored sometime in your life. Honoring Mary is not contrary to scripture.

Mary cant go to Jesus on anyones behalf , only Jesus can intercede to the father on your behalf.

Of course she can, just like I could go to Jesus on your behalf if you asked. That’s what intercessory prayer is.

You all need to read the kjv bible , not the catholic bible which is full of contradictions.

***On what basis do you recommend the KJV over a Catholic bible? Please cite your sources. Thanks! ***

 

[Faustina]

Luke24:

You see how wrong you are! Don’t you read your Bible? How can you claim you gave us the Bible when in fact the Bible plainly says it is from God? I will admit that because it was copied into Latin certain of the believers saw in it that we were to have it in our own language and possession; for that I am greatful to the Lord and William Tyndale as well as others. I believe the Guttenburg press was the best man made invention. Martin Luther’s 95 Thesis still stands true to this day and God has richly blessed those who read His Word. God preserved His Word.
Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
2 Timothy 3:16-17 ** All scripture is given by inspiration of God**, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Peter 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
All. 2Sa 23:2; Mt 21:42; 22:31-32; 26:54,56; Mr 12:24,36; Joh 10:35; Ac 1:16; 28:25; Ro 3:2; 15:4; Ga 3:8; Heb 3:7; 4:12; 2Pe 1:19-21; and is. Ps 19:7-11; 119:97-104,130; Mic 2:7; Ac 20:20,27; 1Co 12:7; Eph 4:11-16; for doctrine. 2Ti 3:10
for reproof. 2Ti 4:2; Pr 6:23; 15:10,31; Joh 3:20; Eph 5:11-13; Heb 11:1; for instruction. 2Ti 2:25; De 4:36; Ne 9:20; Ps 119:9,11; Mt 13:52; Ac 18:25; Ro 2:20
Actually all of Psalm 119 is about the Word of God.
1 Peter 1:13-25 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

May The Almighty Father bless you from His Word,
Luke 24

Again, it is just amazing how you quote scripture, but cannot see the truth!

 

[Faustina]

Continuing…

Do you agree that it is thru God that all things are possible?

Why can you not see how the invention of the printing press was inspired by God to spread his Word, His Word that was gathered together by the Catholic Church thru his inspiration?

“Knowing this first, that **no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost”

Catholics have the magistairum (sp) for interpretation. It is private interpretation that has caused the splits of the Christian church. As the apostles wrote, were they not inspired by the Holy Ghost? Why is it such a stretch for you to believe the Holy Ghost can inspire others, such as the early church fathers? It is because of God’s inspiration working thru man, that the Word of God has been preserved.

God is capable of all things, signs and wonders**

 

[joehardee]

i agree with Luke24 .

Amen