Catholics worship Mary, crosses, cards, and bread?

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Luke24:
Rosaries: none
**Crucifixes:**none
pope(s): none
Luke 24
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Hmmm… Okay where in Scripture can you find:

Trinity…nowhere
Incarnation…none
Salvation by faith ALONE…none
Authority is Bible ALONE…none

Of course you won’t find anything of the sort. James clearly states we are NOT saved by faith alone (check the other excellent threads for the reasons) and St. Paul says the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth.
Trinity and Incarnation are core concepts of Protestant theology, but based on the above quote, they are unbiblical.

Now, where in Scripture are:

Prayer and counselling phone lines…none
Televangelists…none
Stained glass…uh uh
Air conditioning…nope
Microphones, sound systems…nope
English used in worship services…nah
Inspired translation of the Bible (KJV?, NIV?)…nope
etc.

So based on these things not being in the Bible, yet these items form good part of non-Catholic Christian life, I will have to declare that the way they live and worship is UNBIBLICAL!!! AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha KOFF KOFF😃

(Sorry couldn’t resist).

Of course, the point is that just because something is not mentioned letra-por-letra in the Bible does not automatically make it unbiblical or wrong.
 
The interpretation of that passage I hear the most is Jesus meant that the church was within your heart, but why make the distinction unless there was someone who missed his idea of a humble church of the peasantry

Either I am missing something here or I am not hearing right. Wormwood, you speak of a humble church of the peasantry. The Temple of that day (although it was the second Temple) was blessed by God Himself.
**“And the lord said to him: 'I have heard your prayer and your supplication that you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built to put My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually.” **1Kings9,3. The temple was ornate, but it was a holy place, it was God’s dwelling. It was the crooks that were selling the sacrifices at a ridicculous to line their pocket angered Jesus. The Temple was his Father’s house…literally.

God is not confined to elaborate temples, and you needn’t surround yourself with worldly goods to talk to him.

Half-truth. By the quote above, God Himself was in the Temple. God is everywhere but you would have a hard time arguing the Holy of Holies when God directs Moses on how to build the Arc and the sanctuary:
**“And Moses spoke to all the congregration of the children of Israel saying: 'This is the thing which the lord had commanded, saying:…” **Exodus 35,4. And we are talking of very expensive stuff to do as the Lord says…what is your take on that? But you are right you need not be surrounded by wordly goods to speak to God. BUT there is a Holiness you can’t rebuff according to the OT. I realize we are not in the OT, but Roman Catholicism has its heritage in Hebraic roots. Jesus was a Jew and He never mentioned getting rid of Judaism or its temples. He also worshipped in the Temple and synagogues. Our Roman Catholics are prefigured by the Temple, especially with the altar of sacrifice and the Holy of Holies.
You also sound like the nominal Christians who say we need not go to church to pray, for God is everywhere…again half-truth.:tsktsk:

Actually the Jewish customs sound more easter in origin. Praying to the tombs of their ancestors is actually more like shintoism than polytheism.

And your point, Wormwood? Most of the Jewish customs are built on paganistic rituals. Abraham offering up Isaac as a sacrifice was something that was done everyday in Abraham’s time. This was nothing new. But God ordered him to do so and sanctified the ritual as a precursor to Jesus’ own death. Circumcision was also a paganistic ritual, nothing new there also. God asked that to be a sign of his covenant. Therefore, sanctifying it. God uses what people understand for their time and culture…to be continued…:eek:
 
Catholicism is actually duelistic (if not polytheistic) because there is a second deity in the form of Satan. This goes back to the idea of Zoroasteranism a god of light and a god of dark. I have heard this refuted by people saying Satan is an angel and not a deity

An old heresy, but I will get back to you on that one. It would take too long for now.:whistle:

You will see the Jews have no “devil”, no hell, and no statues that it was ok to pray to.

You are wrong again, for now I will just restate the pole with a snake on it. They had to ‘look’ on it to be saved. There are many other examples, I will get back on that also. Believe me…

You cannot pick and choose what you get to hear.

Ditto.:tsktsk:

He came as a shepard for the children of ISREAL, not rome.

Yes, you are right here. He sent Paul to Rome…😉

Blessings,
Shoshana
 
In case I cause confusion again, I have quoted Wormwood in black and my response is in red (as always).

Bye Wormwood…😉

Blessings,
Shoshana
 
Andrew Larkoski:
If any of you have read “Top Ten Reasons Why Catholics aren’t Christian” lists, more often thatn not, right after the claims about the pope and transubstantiation, the claim that Catholics worship Mary or stautes, or whatever (saints, angels, etc.) other than the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the Trinity is also sometimes on these lists) is found.

After reading this, a Catholic who doesn’t understand what veneration of Saints, Mary, crosses, etc. is and what the Church teaches on these matters might think that the “Hail Mary” is idolatry or the Rosary is misguided.

I am going to eat dinner now (sorry!) but I promise I will explain the truth behind these claims soon.

Tyler, take it away.
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All or most of these are from “The Two Babylons” - as for Boettner, his book relies to some degree on TTB, and partly (it seems) on a much older list of “late” Catholic practices.​

As for TTB - it is very important for Catholics - and Orthodox, indeed - not to be too impressed by TTB, or by sites and books and people who rely on TTB. The book has some serious weaknesses - notably its way of using linguistic evidence.

This is not to say that the author was to blame - only that his arguments are often based on very flimsy evidence. As he has been long dead, it’s not really fair to be too hard on him: he can’t answer for himself. The real problem is that his book is still appealed to as though it were far more accurate than it is. ##
 
Either I am missing something here or I am not hearing right. Wormwood, you speak of a humble church of the peasantry. The Temple of that day (although it was the second Temple) was blessed by God Himself.
**“And the lord said to him: 'I have heard your prayer and your supplication that you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built to put My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually.” **
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1Kings9,3. The temple was ornate, but it was a holy place, it was God’s dwelling. It was the crooks that were selling the sacrifices at a ridicculous to line their pocket angered Jesus. The Temple was his Father’s house…literally.

You are most assuredly missing something, perhaps not"hearing" right either. When I ask about Catholics, you tell me about jews. Either you are Jewish or you aren’t. Christ was, you’re not. Yes he did say that the synogogue (Jewish structure) was his fathers house…to stretch that to mean that that is the place where God resides is phallacious. The temple in question fell to invaders did it not? How can God’s actual house be defeated?
Half-truth. By the quote above, God Himself was in the Temple. God is everywhere but you would have a hard time arguing the Holy of Holies when God directs Moses on how to build the Arc and the sanctuary:
**“And Moses spoke to all the congregration of the children of Israel saying: 'This is the thing which the lord had commanded, saying:…” **
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Exodus 35,4.
Again, this is moses the jew, talking to the “children of ISREAL”…not relevant.
You also sound like the nominal Christians who say we need not go to church to pray, for God is everywhere…again half-truth.:tsktsk:
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Care to offer some evidence?
And your point, Wormwood? Most of the Jewish customs are built on paganistic rituals.
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And so are christmas and easter (so christian customs too). And my point was that the Jewish examples that you gave were not demonstrating a LACK of polytheism in Catholocism.
 
You are wrong again, for now I will just restate the pole with a snake on it. They had to ‘look’ on it to be saved. There are many other examples, I will get back on that also. Believe me…
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Looking at a pole with a snake on it and asking a person or statue to intervine on your behalf in the form of a prayer are not even close to the same thing. That is like compairing apples and heresy, it just doesn’t work as an analogy.
You cannot pick and choose what you get to hear.
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Ditto.:tsktsk:
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I have yet to hear anything. If you have any arguments that are not inferred, or assuming that we have the same translation and understanding of a passage, then you should offer those. Maybe you will make a point that is not such a stretch.
 
I don’t think Protestants understand how much we respect these things. They automatically tack on the “worship” sign because, I think, they are insecure about their own beliefs.

Mary- Take a look at CCC 963-975. Plus, look at Luke 1 to find that she is indeed blessed.
“All generations shall call me blessed.” (Luke 1)
“The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” (971)
“Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it.” (964)

Bread- CCC 1333-1344.
“The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ; they continue also to signify the goodness of creation.” (1333)
1335 gives great reasons why we use bread and wine.

Crosses- CCC 618
“The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the ‘one mediator between God and men.’”
Where we don’t worship the cross, indeed, it is very important. Christ died on one, no? The cross is also the symbol of identification for Christianity, Catholic or Protestant.

As for cards (if you mean prayer cards), well, Protestants need to learn what the word “pray” means. You don’t only “pray” to what you worship. Pray- “to ask”.
 
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Luke24:
Amen to you to! And thanks. This is the first friendly voice I have heard in here. Praise God.
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Friendly because he agrees with you?

I believe that it has been you who has shown to be combative
in these posts. There are a lot of friendly, God-loving Christians (who are Catholics by the way…ahem) that have tried to respond to your questions and accusations. Your bombarding your posts with Scripture quotes and piling on the arguments to such grand proportions, is not
truly seeking an answer, but trying to overload others.
Apparently it took you a long time to type out all of that information. It would take an equally long time for a Catholic apologist to respond. If you would like someone to take the time to do so, then take one point at a time. Perhaps you would invoke more patient response(s).

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 
Yes he did say that the synogogue (Jewish structure) was his fathers house…to stretch that to mean that that is the place where God resides is phallacious. The temple in question fell to invaders did it not? How can God’s actual house be defeated?
Code:
Synagogue and Temple are two different things, Wormwood. But this is what Jesus said:
**He overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the stools of those who sold pigeons, and said to them, "It is written in the Scriptures that God said, ‘My Temple will be called a house of prayer.’ But you are making it it a hideout for thieves!’ Matt21:13 **Amen!

Phallaciouis is spelled fallacious, my friend. Your spelling gives it a whole different meaning. :whistle: Yes, it is in Scripture that God resides in his Temple, the Holy of Holies (which in this day in age are Churches with the Blessed Sacrament as the Holy of Holies). I recommend you getting a concordance of your choosing and read the OT. The NT is built on the OT, my friend. The OT is Jesus spelled all across it. The OT pointed to Jesus and only Jesus. There are way too may precursors to list here. But I have a feeling you will not listen. You are like my brother baptized Catholic/Anglican/Calvary Gospel/Faith Tabernacle. OT means nothing to him also. You cannot understand the NT without understanding the NT. The fundamentalists have a very superficial knowledge of the Scripture.

If you are trying to be nit-picky and say that I believe that God only resides in His temple/Blessed Sacrament. Well, the answer is no of course. But He is predominantly found in the Holy of holies (the Sacred Host) for we, Catholics. It is the holiest of places. It is where He resides for our needs and adoration…just like the Jewish priest would enter the Holy of Holies to adore the Holy Presence of God. (on demand from God Himself!).

Wormwood, the story of the Jews is our story as Christians. We may not be Jewish but it is our Heritage. If Jesus read from the OT and studied it and prayed it…well, because I love Him so much I try to do the same thing.

The Temple fell, as prophesied by Jesus. The Jews of that time did not listen to Jesus. What to say? Where did God go? Well, according to the pious Jews today He resides in the Wailing Wall…symbolic of their lost Temple. The Temple was so important to them that there will be another one built, according to them, when the Messiah (Moshiah) comes . The same it is for us. Our Churches may be ornate and I agree, some more rich than others. Do You not think that God deserves the best? He ordered the best for His Temple, so it is with our Churches. Oh! yes! you will argue that Jesus lived poorly. Well, He didn’nt make an issue of the Temple being gilded in gold, when there were many poor around. He even enjoyed the delicacies of the women who anointed His head and His feet. He rebuked the apostles for their criticism and declared that there will always be poor. :tsktsk:

I also rebuke you. I will be back!😃
Blessings,
Shoshana
 
Mike C:
Yes, I agree, the biggest obstacle is ignorance. Just like some people think Jews have horns. (The statue of Moses in Rome, by Michelangelo, the tranlation of the “rays” of light into “horns” of light). People assumed that all Jews had horns!!! How stupid.

You may not like the other side of this story. SOME Jews think that Roman Catholics are devils or do the devil’s work (as do some Protestants) because it is the Catholics that put the ‘horns’ on Moses! Just trivia information…:crying:

Blessings,
Shoshana
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Synagogue and Temple are two different things, Wormwood.
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In what respect? You are trying to argue the semantics of temple and I am saying Jesus is/was/will be a jew. Shepard for the children of Isreal et…
The NT is built on the OT, my friend. The OT is Jesus spelled all across it.
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Yet oddly it conflicts with the OT on some key issues. First one that comes to mind, is that the followers of NT are not Jews, although the man upon whom the book was based is clearly a Jewish man, who never deviates from his faith. Second, what happened to the eye for an eye vengeful God of the OT, he is turning the other cheek and full of infinite forgiveness. ( Does that seem like it would be to Rome’s advantage after mistreating all their neighbors then losing all military power to endorse a religion of love and forgiveness?) I realize that every difference can be justified by some reference to Jesus,( he died for us now God doesn’t turn people into pillars of salt) but what makes him different from the other hewbrew prophets( not in terms of divinity), in other words; they were merely reforming the hebrew religion, why assume Jesus wanted you to be a non-jew ? This is more of a doctrine issue though and not idolatry. Though you may claim heratige in the jewish faith, you are professedly not a member … so the question still stands : what about catholocism?
Wormwood, the story of the Jews is our story as Christians. We may not be Jewish but it is our Heritage. If Jesus read from the OT and studied it and prayed it…well, because I love Him so much I try to do the same thing.
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Ironically, the book you accept so readily was never used, approved, or even talked about by Jesus. The one he did believe in, you read out of love.
 
I don’t think Protestants understand how much we respect these things. They automatically tack on the “worship” sign because, I think, they are insecure about their own beliefs.

Mary- Take a look at CCC 963-975. Plus, look at Luke 1 to find that she is indeed blessed.
“All generations shall call me blessed.” (Luke 1)
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Just to clear this up, I am not a protestant. I’m not sure if this was directed towards me but it is the second accusation if so. And to say that someone does something you don’t like out of insecurity is a cop-out. That is the kind of thing your mother tells you when you ask why the other kids are mean to you. And I don’t hold “CCC” as a reference guide so using this list of pages from biased literature isn’t proving anything. As far as Luke goes, I see nothing about prayer in your explanation.

and…
I also rebuke you. I will be back!😃
Blessings,
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Shoshana On a non-rival subject, are you familiar with the writings of Zacharia Sitchin? If so what are your thoughts? I was thinking of starting a thread, has anyone brought that up yet? Oh well keep those verses coming I guess!
Are you starting to understand the name yet? 🙂
 
<<<So to make a long story short, question followed question, I did my best to answer (drawing on Catholic Answers material, books by Karl Keating, books and tapes by Scott Hahn and others, watching EWTN, etc.) and my student friend now attends mass every week, went to our diocesan Eucharistic Congress, spends time in our adoration chapel, prays the rosary, and is set to start OCIA in September, with me as her sponsor!>>>

**WOW…What an inspiring story!👍 **
**Thanks for reminding us that each one of us, by virtue of our baptism is called to evangelize. **
 
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Wormwood:
In what respect? You are trying to argue the semantics of temple

I am not arguing semantics. There is a difference between a temple and a synagogue. The Temple held the Holy of Holies and it is where the sacrifices were performed by the High Priest (sound familiar?). A synagogue was a gathering place for prayers and theological discussion: thus no sacrifice and no Holy of Holies. Synagogues exist today but there is no Temple. This is not what I call semantics.

and I am saying Jesus is/was/will be a jew. Shepard for the children of Isreal et…
I hope the rest of your statement says …children of Israel et al???

First one that comes to mind, is that the followers of NT are not Jews, although the man upon whom the book was based is clearly a Jewish man, who never deviates from his faith.

Wrong again, Wormwood. The first followers of NT were Jews. They still honoured Shabbat and the Resurrection Day. It lasted until the Jews themselves kicked them out of Temple. What choice did they have? By this statement, are you meaning that because Jesus never deviates from his faith, that christianity should’ve been a Judaism after the heart of Jesus?

Second, what happened to the eye for an eye vengeful God of the OT, he is turning the other cheek and full of infinite forgiveness.

God spoke to the people as best as they could understand for that period of time. He even explains in the NT that adultery is one of the commandement but there was to be added the fact, that, whosoever lusts after another in his heart also committs adultery. The people were ready to mature and understand more.

why assume Jesus wanted you to be a non-jew ?

I can easily assume that…for he sent Paul to preach to the Gentiles and Paul’s death occurred right in Rome as well as Peter’s. (two Jews). Jesus has not stopped desiring that his own people see the light…it was a thorn in His own flesh that so many were so obstinate and did not want to hear His word. He even cried on Jerusalem. Dominus flevit

to be continued…
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Wormwood:
In what respect? You are trying to argue the semantics of temple

I am not arguing semantics. There is a difference between a temple and a synagogue. The Temple held the Holy of Holies and it is where the sacrifices were performed by the High Priest (sound familiar?). A synagogue was a gathering place for prayers and theological discussion: thus no sacrifice and no Holy of Holies. Synagogues exist today but there is no Temple. This is not what I call semantics.

and I am saying Jesus is/was/will be a jew. Shepard for the children of Isreal et…
I hope the rest of your statement says …children of Israel et al???

First one that comes to mind, is that the followers of NT are not Jews, although the man upon whom the book was based is clearly a Jewish man, who never deviates from his faith.

Wrong again, Wormwood. The first followers of NT were Jews. They still honoured Shabbat and the Resurrection Day. It lasted until the Jews themselves kicked them out of Temple. What choice did they have? By this statement, are you meaning that because Jesus never deviates from his faith, that christianity should’ve been a Judaism after the heart of Jesus?

Second, what happened to the eye for an eye vengeful God of the OT, he is turning the other cheek and full of infinite forgiveness.

God spoke to the people as best as they could understand for that period of time. He even explains in the NT that adultery is one of the commandement but there was to be added the fact, that, whosoever lusts after another in his heart also committs adultery. The people were ready to mature and understand more.

to be continued…
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why assume Jesus wanted you to be a non-jew ?

I can easily assume that…for he sent Paul to preach to the Gentiles and Paul’s death occurred right in Rome as well as Peter’s. (two Jews). Jesus has not stopped desiring that his own people see the light…it was a thorn in His own flesh that so many were so obstinate and did not want to hear His word. He even cried on Jerusalem. Dominus flevit

Ironically, the book you accept so readily was never used, approved, or even talked about by Jesus. The one he did believe in, you read out of love.

For clarity purposes, what book are you talking about? The NT?
On a non-rival subject, are you familiar with the writings of Zacharia Sitchin? If so what are your thoughts? I was thinking of starting a thread, has anyone brought that up yet? Oh well keep those verses coming I guess!

No I haven’t…would the library own a copy?

Are you starting to understand the name yet?

Let me ask you this question…is not cherbonyl Russian for wormwood?:hmmm:

I am not sure how pious it is to have a nemesis on a Catholic discussion forum, but I am always down to discuss.

Am I your enemy, my friend??? :crying:

You will see the Jews have no “devil”,

I still have to get back to you on that one…but the statement is wrong. The Jews did have a satan… but I am tired now, and I must go… 👋

Blessings,
Shoshana
 
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Wolseley:
Most of these lists come from the “Master List” found in the opening pages of Loraine Boettner’s 1962 anti-Catholic screed Roman Catholicism.
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Gee- I thought the KKK was bad!!!

Good luck with the book.
 
This day, ever so close to the election of our next President…I overheard a Protestant female M.D. co-worker telling another female co-worker not to vote for Kerry because “He’s not even a Christian”. I then began to understand a little of why she is so against Catholics. I’m not sure she will ever be open to try to see the Truth…I do pray for her…the real problem solver…
 
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