Cecil the lion's killer revealed as American dentist

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Bubba_Switzler said:
Gardening is a very good analogy, in fact. Nobody gardens for food. They do it because they enjoy it. .
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No. I garden because I can either get things such as spaghetti squash or yacon that I cannot buy, or I can get things such as new potatoes, asparagus or peas so fresh that you put the water on to boil then go out to harvest them.
adrift said:
You do realize that one purpose in hunting is to thin herds so that they don’t starve? What market do you go to that you can buy elk or deer?
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My local butcher, as it happens. He specialises in game.

But I have no problem with culling to thin an over large population. Killing an endangered species, especially a beloved alpha male, and doing so so incompetently for fun is despicable.
 
ringil said:
Well, there is a difference between a hunter going after deer or even legal bear trophies- and hopefully donating the meat. That’s entirely normal.

That’s not what this guy did here and not what he has been guilty of before.

He is hunting “exotic” animals seen as virile predators to make himself feel more powerful and virile himself.

This is a sign of some personality pathology.

There are very valid ways to enjoy hunting and this fellow wasn’t involved in normal hunting.
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He may well have violated the law, knowningly or unknowingly. However, hunting “exotic” animals is not itself illegal or unethical (much less a “sign of some personality pathology”).
 
DrTaffy said:
But I have no problem with culling to thin an over large population. Killing an endangered species, especially a beloved alpha male, and doing so so incompetently for fun is despicable.
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Incompetence and illegality aside, most predators are endangered not because they are being hunted to extinction but because they are being deprived of their predatory habitat by farming. As a result, they need to be culled for the area they are allowed (e.g. a game preserve). And game preserves obviously see an advantage in earning money from hunters to accomplish this culling. That there may be corruption or incompetence in carrying this out does not make it inherently despicable.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
He may well have violated the law, knowningly or unknowingly. However, hunting “exotic” animals is not itself illegal or unethical (much less a “sign of some personality pathology”).
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I will leave the psychology to his analyst, but I think most people agree that killing a beloved and rare animal such as Cecil is unethical. It is a fact that the Simpsons exaggerated to great effect in Mr. Burns.

It is as if someone came to the U.S. and shot Lassie.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Incompetence and illegality aside, most predators are endangered not because they are being hunted to extinction but because they are being deprived of their predatory habitat by farming. As a result, they need to be culled for the area they are allowed (e.g. a game preserve).
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Interesting. The problem you present has two obvious solutions.
  1. Accept the reduced range of habitat of the endangered animal and cull accordingly, or
  2. Stop reducing the range of the animal’s habitat.
On what basis do you automatic jump to solution #1 and discount solution #2? Remember the viability of an animal is not a linear function of its habitat. Several non-linear factors come into play, such as:
  1. When habitat is reduced below a necessary threshold, the animal cannot survive, and
  2. When culled below a certain level, genetic diversity suffers, leading to inbreeding and eventual collapse of the species.
 
The Lion had a “black mane” which I guess is rare, this certainly is terrible and this is practically the number one story today. Very sad.

I guess Big Game hunters hunt Lions, Elephants maybe, Rhinos, all of that is terrible to do in my view.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
I will leave the psychology to his analyst, but I think most people agree that killing a beloved and rare animal such as Cecil is unethical. It is a fact that the Simpsons exaggerated to great effect in Mr. Burns.
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I don’t believe anyone has alleged that the dentist knowingly targeted a “beloved” lion. The worst that has been alleged against him is that he enjoys hunting exotic game, of which lions are among the most dangerous, and that he may have knowingly cut corners on this or other hunts. Most likely he relied on his guides and thought he was following the law.
 
And China, with it’s goofy folk medicine, drives so much of this poaching.

It’s disgusting.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Interesting. The problem you present has two obvious solutions.
  1. Accept the reduced range of habitat of the endangered animal and cull accordingly, or
  2. Stop reducing the range of the animal’s habitat.
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This is indeed a real problem (as opposed to all the wasted grief for “Cecil”).

But now we are talking about a competition between agriculture (i.e. feeding people) and wild animal habitat. How many human lives is a lion worth?

The solution that most African nations have settled upon is to create game preserves and to support these preserves, in part, by hosting big game hunters. When it is run correctly this is a sustainable model because the land is competively productive. If you can’t grow food on the land you can take money from rich hunters and buy food grown elsewhere.

Where is the scandal in that?
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
I don’t believe anyone has alleged that the dentist knowingly targeted a “beloved” lion. The worst that has been alleged against him is that he enjoys hunting exotic game, of which lions are among the most dangerous, and that he may have knowingly cut corners on this or other hunts. Most likely he relied on his guides and thought he was following the law.
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His ignorance is negligence. If he was paying $50,000 to shoot a lion, he should have known where he was and what doing. He listened to his guides because that’s all he wanted to hear.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
This is indeed a real problem (as opposed to all the wasted grief for “Cecil”).

But now we are talking about a competition between agriculture (i.e. feeding people) and wild animal habitat. How many human lives is a lion worth?
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This is a false contest. People can adjust and move around. Lions cannot.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
His ignorance is negligence. If he was paying $50,000 to shoot a lion, he should have known where he was and what doing. He listened to his guides because that’s all he wanted to hear.
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It may well have been criminal negligence. But people regularly rely on others as guides in many activities in life. Anyone who has been a tourist in a foreign country where you don’t know the language or laws knows the experience. Save the hate for the guides who almost certainly knew better.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
His ignorance is negligence. If he was paying $50,000 to shoot a lion, he should have known where he was and what doing. He listened to his guides because that’s all he wanted to hear.
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It could be that he paid 50,000 for a combination of hunts but had to call his trip off early due to accidentally killing Cecil. I can’t imagine why he would bribe someone when you can kill a lion along the banks of the great grey-green, greasy Limpopo River, all set about with fever-trees for much less than 50,000.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
This is a false contest. People can adjust and move around. Lions cannot.
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It is precisely the contest. Farmers and lions are competing for land. Hunting gives the lions a way to compete with the farmers.
 
He killed a lion which isn’t even a critically endangered species. How is this mass outrage news?

When Germans slaughtered the last and only bear in their country for hundreds of years because Germany just want big enough for one they didn’t post the hunters pictures.
Or the propaganda outlet the BBC might want to mention that their country and government treated animals so well that they exterminated any carnivore larger than a fox let lone a lion.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
It is precisely the contest. Farmers and lions are competing for land. Hunting gives the lions a way to compete with the farmers.
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No, it is a false contest because the lives of the people encroaching on the lion’s habitat is not directly at stake like it is for the lions. They can choose to go elsewhere. So it is not correct to ask “how many lives are worth the life of a lion”.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
No, it is a false contest because the lives of the people encroaching on the lion’s habitat is not directly at stake like it is for the lions. They can choose to go elsewhere. So it is not correct to ask “how many lives are worth the life of a lion”.
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It is not sufficient for people in rich countries to tell Africans where they can or cannot go to live. They live there. They farm for their food there. You may not like it, you might wish that they be resettled so that you can enjoy free roaming lions, but I don’t think they care about your opinion. They are struggling to survive.
 
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