Cecil the lion's killer revealed as American dentist

[Bubba_Switzler]

A Zimbabwean court on Wednesday charged a professional hunter with failing to prevent an American from unlawfully killing ‘Cecil’, the southern African country’s best-known lion, in a case that has triggered widespread revulsion at trophy hunting.

The American, Walter James Palmer, a Minnesota dentist who paid $50,000 to kill the lion, has left Zimbabwe. He says he did kill the animal but believed the hunt was legal.

Local hunter Theo Bronkhorst appeared in a courthouse in Hwange, 800 km (500 miles) west of Harare, and was charged with “failing to supervise, control and take reasonable steps to prevent an unlawful hunt”.

news.yahoo.com/zimbabwean-men-court-over-killing-cecil-lion-102436737.html

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Not exactly a trip to the local grocery which is what I really was pointing out.

In fact, in many places, it is. And if you dine on deer or elk in a restaurant it is almost certainly the product of farming.

But your local grocery store does not carry it then, as I pointed out, there is always chicken or pork or turkey or, well, you get the point.

 

[GEddie]

I haven’t the foggiest notion what point you are trying to make other than to confirm what I am saying. The closest you come to contradicting me is to imply that Egypt was not prehistoric but if such paintings constitute history we can safely infer, I think, that hunting for pleasure did not suddenly begin with such paintings. It was prehistoric.

As for the luxury implied, does that not exactly match the hunting of lions by dentists ion safari? The more aristicratic the hunter, the more exotic the game. For most of human history post agriculture, hunting was an aristocratic pastime. Only in America did it become a hobby of the common man and only because leisure became common.

Nobody hunts for food.

Not really because of more leisure.

In the Old World, as the population increased, the hunt became restricted to nobles, often draconically so. Think of Robin Hood. He was going to be hanged, not for robbing or mankilling, but for hunting in a forest that belonged to the nobility. This privilege remained secure even while the masses went hungry.

When later generations sailed for NA, they aspired to the privileges they were denied in Europe. Just as huge houses sitting on large plots of land became the norm, so, for many, was hunting. In fact, it was a necessity then. Later it became a revenue source for the states.

ICXC NIKA

 

[book_and_bead]

He killed a lion which isn’t even a critically endangered species. How is this mass outrage news?

When Germans slaughtered the last and only bear in their country for hundreds of years because Germany just want big enough for one they didn’t post the hunters pictures.
Or the propaganda outlet the BBC might want to mention that their country and government treated animals so well that they exterminated any carnivore larger than a fox let lone a lion.

I think it’s the way that he went about it, baiting the cat to encourage it to leave the protected area and causing it to suffer for 40 hours before killing it. IMHO, that’s cruel and unethical. From what I heard, they put an animal carcass in the back of a truck and scented the area to lure it out of the park.

This man does a lot of good conservation work and explains the state of lions in the wild and the growing black market trade in lion bones.

The Lion Whisperer

 

[GEddie]

It is not sufficient for people in rich countries to tell Africans where they can or cannot go to live. They live there. They farm for their food there. You may not like it, you might wish that they be resettled so that you can enjoy free roaming lions, but I don’t think they care about your opinion. They are struggling to survive.

The same is true in other “nature” issues, like trying to tell the Brazilians not to clear the rainforest.

Developing nations have no time for the sentimentality of people across the ocean; they have their citizens’ needs to tend to.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Thorolfr]

The International Union for the Conservation of Nature estimates that trophy-hunting tourists legally kill some 600 lions each year. Jane Smart, the global director of IUCN’s Biodiversity Conservation Group, said in an interview that the 600 figure is several years old and the actual number is probably a little bit higher than that. Given that there are only about 30,000 lions left in Africa, this represents an annual loss of roughly 2 percent of the total lion population to legal hunting, and a considerably larger share of the population of healthy adult male lions, which hunters typically prize.

American tourists – wealthy ones, given the high costs involved – account for the majority of lions killed for sport in Africa. A 2011 report by the International Fund for Animal Welfare found that between 1999 and 2008, Americans brought home lion “trophies” – heads, pelts and whatnot – representing 64 percent of all African lions killed for sport during that period. And that number is rising: “Of these trophies, the number imported into the U.S. in 2008 was larger than any other year in the decade studied and more than twice the number in 1999,” the report found.

washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/29/rich-american-tourists-kill-hundreds-of-lions-each-year-and-its-all-legal/?hpid=z4

This is kind of interesting from the article:

In reality, lion hunting doesn’t appear to require much in the way of skill. As the photos above show, many hunter-tourists are guided by teams of locals and professionals. Adult lions are not particularly afraid of humans, making it relatively easy to get close to one. They spend the majority of their day sleeping.

 

[GEddie]

washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/29/rich-american-tourists-kill-hundreds-of-lions-each-year-and-its-all-legal/?hpid=z4

This is kind of interesting from the article:

Of course they are not particularly afraid of human beings. They are called the kings of the jungle for a reason.

ISTM that some on the thread think that it is “unfair” for man to meet a lion other than naked and unarmed. But our flimsy bodies are no match whatsoever for them. Hunting lions will always require courage.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Of course they are not particularly afraid of human beings. They are called the kings of the jungle for a reason.

Not just lions but also tigers, panthers, cougars, elephants, even coyotes in a pack. You can find plenty of videos on Youtube of wild pigs charging hunters. Some of them have very dangerous tusks and all have nasty teeth.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

It is not sufficient for people in rich countries to tell Africans where they can or cannot go to live. They live there. They farm for their food there. You may not like it, you might wish that they be resettled so that you can enjoy free roaming lions, but I don’t think they care about your opinion. They are struggling to survive.

Don’t try to cast rich Americans as the only ones who are advocating for the lions. It is the people of Zimbabwe and the other African nations themselves who have set aside preserves. They realize, perhaps better than we do, the value of preserving their wild animal heritage. If anyone is telling the Africans what to do, it was you when you suggested culling whenever farming and lions are in conflict.

 

[adrift]

In fact, in many places, it is. And if you dine on deer or elk in a restaurant it is almost certainly the product of farming.

But your local grocery store does not carry it then, as I pointed out, there is always chicken or pork or turkey or, well, you get the point.

Many places? Not in the United States do you go to a local grocery store and get venison. As you pointed out, you have to go to a producer. What is your point that elk and deer are famed? The animal is killed one way or another.
Just because you can buy food does not negate the fact that hunting provides food as well.

 

[DrTaffy]

Many places? Not in the United States do you go to a local grocery store and get venison. As you pointed out, you have to go to a producer. What is your point that elk and deer are famed? The animal is killed one way or another.
Just because you can buy food does not negate the fact that hunting provides food as well.

But farming gives something back to the animals. They would not exist if they were not being raised for food.

Likewise, culling to thin an overlarge population because there are no natural predators left is vastly different from killing an endangered species for fun. Seriously, does anyone eat lion meat? :ehh:

Edit: “Not in the United States do you go to a local grocery store and get venison.”
Is this true? Three local butchers I checked on all have venison. We do have herds that need culling (no large predators left - the biggest being the badgers I think) but I am a bit shocked at this. If you do find venison, try adding a tiny bit of dark chocolate to the sauce - lifts it a lot!

 

[_Abyssinia]

I bet this killing has had far more international media attention than the Planned Parenthood body parts scandal. The killing of the lion is a serious issue but the likely skew in media attention does not seem right.

 

[boar2roar]

I think it’s the way that he went about it, baiting the cat to encourage it to leave the protected area and causing it to suffer for 40 hours before killing it. IMHO, that’s cruel and unethical. From what I heard, they put an animal carcass in the back of a truck and scented the area to lure it out of the park.

This man does a lot of good conservation work and explains the state of lions in the wild and the growing black market trade in lion bones.

The Lion Whisperer

Why is it that western Europeans cry about conservation and bad treatment of animals the most but if you asked them to live with lions or bring back the wolves and bears that they exterminated than they become silent. The Germans consider one bear for all of Germany too much to handle and every other animal they have is micromanaged and so low in number they are basically zoo animals.

 

[_Abyssinia]

PETA Wants Lion-Hunting Dentist Killed

time.com/3976578/peta-cecil-lion/

 

[JimmyG88]

It is precisely the contest. Farmers and lions are competing for land. Hunting gives the lions a way to compete with the farmers.

Oh Bubba do stop it please. This guy has been tried in the court of public opinion and found wanting. 100,000 red dear are culled in the UK every year and because I quite like venison and because I don’t want a stag in the garden I have no problem with this sort of wildlife management. However this over privileged character went to a continent where a glass of water is difficult to get and riven with pockets of the most pitiable poverty and spent $50,000 to indulge his cruel and useless pastime of killing rare creatures for his pleasure. This creature was well known, he had a black mane and a visible collar because he was being studied by Oxford university. The guy said he didn’t know the Lion was protected but I suggest he may just have noticed the collar when he skinned and decapitated the creature. I don’t approve of hunting much but I can live with it. Grouse duck pheasant deer are after all hunted and I do consume them. But this was cowardly and pointless. He showed no skill (a good deer hunter would never allow a beast to suffer for two days) and what is the outcome? We have one less protected lion and that head case has done his last root canal until he has changed his appearance and bought a wig

 

[adrift]

Oh Bubba do stop it please. This guy has been tried in the court of public opinion and found wanting. 100,000 red dear are culled in the UK every year and because I quite like venison and because I don’t want a stag in the garden I have no problem with this sort of wildlife management. However this over privileged character went to a continent where a glass of water is difficult to get and riven with pockets of the most pitiable poverty and spent $50,000 to indulge his cruel and useless pastime of killing rare creatures for his pleasure. This creature was well known, he had a black mane and a visible collar because he was being studied by Oxford university. The guy said he didn’t know the Lion was protected but I suggest he may just have noticed the collar when he skinned and decapitated the creature. I don’t approve of hunting much but I can live with it. Grouse duck pheasant deer are after all hunted and I do consume them. But this was cowardly and pointless. He showed no skill (a good deer hunter would never allow a beast to suffer for two days) and what is the outcome? We have one less protected lion and that head case has done his last root canal until he has changed his appearance and bought a wig

It wasn’t illegal to kill this lion there was no law against it. There is no law against luring lions off the reserve. There was no law against killing one who had a collar. It was illegal because the land owner where the kill was made did not have the proper permits.

 

[JimmyG88]

It wasn’t illegal to kill this lion there was no law against it. There is no law against luring lions off the reserve. There was no law against killing one who had a collar. It was illegal because the land owner where the kill was made did not have the proper permits.

Abortion is ‘legal’ loads of stuff is ‘legal’

 

[book_and_bead]

Why is it that western Europeans cry about conservation and bad treatment of animals the most but if you asked them to live with lions or bring back the wolves and bears that they exterminated than they become silent. The Germans consider one bear for all of Germany too much to handle and every other animal they have is micromanaged and so low in number they are basically zoo animals.

NIMBY I suppose. I live in a semi-rural area of NJ with a black bear population. Condo and townhouse development skyrocketed in the 90’s because of commuters to NYC who couldn’t afford housing costs on this side of the Hudson River. The bears’ habitat shrunk and it’s not unusual to see them in neighborhoods foraging garbage cans, or in some cases killing pets. Then you have the dingbats that feed them and are shocked when one enters a home; it has happened. Thank God no one has been hurt…yet. Thus we have a bear hunt by permit every December and of course, protests outside weigh stations. I have no problem with the hunt IF they use the meat or donate it to needy families and avoid killing cubs. That’s up to the hunter because it’s legal to kill them.

 

[adrift]

But farming gives something back to the animals. They would not exist if they were not being raised for food.

Likewise, culling to thin an overlarge population because there are no natural predators left is vastly different from killing an endangered species for fun. Seriously, does anyone eat lion meat? :ehh:

Edit: “Not in the United States do you go to a local grocery store and get venison.”
Is this true? Three local butchers I checked on all have venison. We do have herds that need culling (no large predators left - the biggest being the badgers I think) but I am a bit shocked at this. If you do find venison, try adding a tiny bit of dark chocolate to the sauce - lifts it a lot!

Not where I live as my state is a state that makes money off of hunting. I personally do not like the meat of deer. Elk is better but I prefer domestic rabbit. Something I haven’t mentioned is I know hunters who want the meat because it does not have additives. Yes people do hunt for food. Trophy hunting is said to be needed for culling the herds to make them healthy. People protest this as well as protesting zoos. Disney promoted the evil hunter. Once we were a society based on farming, they understood the balance of nature. Most of society is far removed and have not concept of where their food comes from other than they get it from the store. This is a complex subject. I feel sorry for the dentist. As you can see by the postings, the fact that he thought it was legal means nothing. It does to the government because they rightfully hold the guides and the land owner at fault.

 

[JimmyG88]

Not where I live as my state is a state that makes money off of hunting. I personally do not like the meat of deer. Elk is better but I prefer domestic rabbit. Something I haven’t mentioned is I know hunters who want the meat because it does not have additives. Yes people do hunt for food. Trophy hunting is said to be needed for culling the herds to make them healthy. People protest this as well as protesting zoos. Disney promoted the evil hunter. Once we were a society based on farming, they understood the balance of nature. Most of society is far removed and have not concept of where their food comes from other than they get it from the store. This is a complex subject. I feel sorry for the dentist. As you can see by the postings, the fact that he thought it was legal means nothing. It does to the government because they rightfully hold the guides and the land owner at fault.

This desire to travel thousands of miles and spend thousands of dollars to kill something is strange. He must be a narcissist or have a personality disorder. This same desire if he were an adolescent would almost certainly indicate that he would be a serial killer