CHARISMATIC HYSTERIA

[cnelms]

misericordie:

…The Church needs no spiritual advice which BEGAN in the pentecostal church. It does not need to get ideas on how to pray and worship from pentecostals .

Speaking in tongues clearly began with the Apostles. It is in the scripture. The charism’s of the Holy Spirit have been occurring in the faithful on which He bestows the gifts for centuries. This is nothing new and certainly was not introduced by any protestant sect.

 

[Pani_Rose]

In my opinion if you are say that every mass is not a charismatic mass …then you call God and his church a liar.

The Holy Spirit is the one who leads the church in the sanctification of the Gifts. He is the one who led the Early Church Fathers to put the Bible together. Christ said I must go so that the Paralclete may come. The Paraclete leads us in the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist…he is the sanctifier of the gifts we offer to God. The defination of “LITRUGY” is the work of the people. So there is nothing we can do in the Mass that is not directed by the Holy Spirit.

So every mass whether it uses the Gifts and includes the extrodinary gifts (charisms) or not is led by the Holy Spirit for the Glory of God, giving back to him what is his own. As long as the priest is at the alter offering back to God what Jesus gave us at the Last Supper, the Holy Spirit is there changing the bread, water, and the wine, into the very same Supper that Christ shared with his apostles.

He wants to share himself totally and freely with each one of us.
Why not take the opportunity to ask Jesus and Blessed Mother to show you the truths of the Holy Spirit. After all you are so worried about her Spouse, Mary didn’t hesitate, May prayed in tongues. Why are you so afraid to learn what she helped the apostles to understand. Is it not the same Holy Spirit? So then, how is it you can say the gifts and charisms of the Holy Spirit given to them and spoken of in Holy Scripture is wrong?

Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners and lead us into a fuller understanding of who you are and who we are in your Holy Spirit. God gave us a Spirit of power not timidity!

Pani Rose

 

[misericordie]

Since I again notice many STILL!! Don’t get it, I repeat: Me, my family, and all my friends have decided that we REFUSE to attend any “catholic” mass in which the mass seems more like a night out in a merengue club, than a mass which adores CHRIST, in all contemplation, seriousness, and with the ONLY instrument of music specifically mentioned by name in the Second Vatican Council’s Document: Sacrosanctum Concillium, namely, the ORGAN.

For some reason I have a hard time picturing Mary the Mother of Jesus, St. Mary Magdalene, and the beloved disciple dancing side to side, jumping in glee at the sight of Jesus on the Cross at Calvary. Why then if the Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Mass, is where Jesus Christ offers Himself again to the Father on the ALTAR of SACRIFICE, not so much a "table"then WHY is it, our attitude should be any different from the ATTITUDE or thinking of those who loved Christ and WHO WERE AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS?
As per the fiesta, it should not happen in mass, or less so if the fiesta ATTITUDE is based on a pentecostal ideology. Again, I will dance, yell, jump, and spin on the floor, OUTSIDE MASS!:dancing: :dancing: :clapping: :clapping: :bounce: :whacky: . I will only attend a MASS in which the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary is renewed on the Altar of Sacrifice, and well, which has no rock and roll, um, that would be a CATHOLIC Mass. Mass is NOT to do our thing, but to participate in the adoration of God, especially in the Eucharist. The merengue can be held in the parish hall downstairs, and then there can even be cookies and coffee too.

 

[Prometheum_x]

misericordie:

Since I again notice many STILL!! Don’t get it, I repeat: Me, my family, and all my friends have decided that we REFUSE to attend any “catholic” mass in which the mass seems more like a night out in a merengue club, than a mass which adores CHRIST, in all contemplation, seriousness, and with the ONLY instrument of music specifically mentioned by name in the Second Vatican Council’s Document: Sacrosanctum Concillium, namely, the ORGAN.

For some reason I have a hard time picturing Mary the Mother of Jesus, St. Mary Magdalene, and the beloved disciple dancing side to side, jumping in glee at the sight of Jesus on the Cross at Calvary. Why then if the Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Mass, is where Jesus Christ offers Himself again to the Father on the ALTAR of SACRIFICE, not so much a "table"then WHY is it, our attitude should be any different from the ATTITUDE or thinking of those who loved Christ and WHO WERE AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS?
As per the fiesta, it should not happen in mass, or less so if the fiesta ATTITUDE is based on a pentecostal ideology. Again, I will dance, yell, jump, and spin on the floor, OUTSIDE MASS!:dancing: :dancing: :clapping: :clapping: :bounce: :whacky: . I will only attend a MASS in which the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary is renewed on the Altar of Sacrifice, and well, which has no rock and roll, um, that would be a CATHOLIC Mass. Mass is NOT to do our thing, but to participate in the adoration of God, especially in the Eucharist. The merengue can be held in the parish hall downstairs, and then there can even be cookies and coffee too.

Misericordie,

Actually I do get it: You, your friends, and your family aren’t going to be going to the sort of thing you have described above. I got that a long time ago. However, what I don’t get it why you are ignoring what other people are writing. You are intent on talking about bizarre things I have never seen in a church. You use such colorful, descriptive language that it is easy for me to picture what you are describing, and I have never seen such a sight at Mass.

I find it quite uncharitable that you continue to ignore me. (I will let the others speak for themselves.) Am I your brother in the Catholic faith by virtue of my baptism, my faith in Christ, participation in the other sacraments, and union with the Bishop of Rome or am I your enemy? It seems that you are treating me more as your enemy. Perhaps my thinking is muddled on this issue, but using such antagonistic language doesn’t make me want to listen to you. If I need rebuking or teaching, then by all means, do it. But do it with meekness, gentleness, humility. Treat me as a dearly loved brother in the Lord.

May God bless you.

 

[tom.wineman]

I never heard anybody speak in any tongue that I could understand. Must be the Holy Ghost passed me by.

 

[Prometheum_x]

tom.wineman:

I never heard anybody speak in any tongue that I could understand. Must be the Holy Ghost passed me by.

I’m not sure I understand what you are saying. Could you rephrase?

 

[Joanna]

tom.wineman:

I never heard anybody speak in any tongue that I could understand. Must be the Holy Ghost passed me by.

Leon Joseph Cardinal Suenens says of this gift: “The Spirit can lead us to that special freedom that I am bold enough to talk about as the spontaneity of praying in tongues. This is not some foreign language, but a gift of prayer that carries us to a depth of adoration where articulate words are no longer needed, and we burst forth voicing wordless praise. Through the Spirit, I believe that this gift is available to all who show a willingness by at least opening their mouths.”

Cardinal Suenens is one of the principal architects of the Second Vatican Council. He served on all four of its major committees. His image can be found on one of the bronze doors of the Basilica of St. Peter. He also fostered lay movements such as Legion of Mary and Focolare.

 

[misericordie]

I don’t understand why some take the facts of truth and percieve it as PERSONAL attacks on them. Come on, it is better to be objective and less subjective.

     With regard to cardinal suenens, I never understood why he was so unhappy with the church, that he felt the only way to fix what HE percieved was wrong with it, was to introduce new, and ever so new, and ever again so new novelties into the church.  It seems that all the teachings and tradition of the church were not good enough for him, so he had to invent some new form of catholicism every day.
   Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Arinze', now there are two true Cardinals worth mentioning.:clapping: :tiphat:

 

[Joanna]

Cardinal Suenens supported those Movements within the Church that had merit.

Among his “novelties” , Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church and Gaudium et Spes, the Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World*.* It was Cardinal Suenens who strongly influenced these two main documents of the council

**Cardinal Suenens Leo Jozef Cardinal Suenens - 1904-1996 **

**R.I.P. **

***Cardinal Leo Jozef Suenens, Archbishop Emeritus of Malines-Brussels, died of thrombosis on May 6, 1996 in a clinic of Brussels. Once a senior prelate in Belgium, he was a very important figure of today’s Catholicism and one of the great contributors of Vatican II. ***

**Cardinal Suenens was born on July 16, 1904 in Ixelles, which is in the archdiocese he lead several years later. When he expressed the desire to be a priest, well-known Cardinal Mercier, then Archbishop of Malines, sent him to study in Rome at the Gregorian University. He graduated in Philosophy, Theology, and Canon Law. After his ordination he became Professor of Moral Philosophy and Pedagogy in Malines and the Vice-Rector of the Catholic University of Louvain. He replaced the Rector who was arrested by the Nazis, thereby putting his own life in danger. **

**In 1945, when Pius XII appointed him Auxiliary Bishop and General Vicar of Malines, Bishop Suenens became the soul of several Catholic associations: he was made National President of “Legio Mariae” and “Pax Christi” as well as the national liaison for the Belgian Catholic Action. **

John XXIII appointed him Archbishop of the primatial see and subsequently Cardinal. He then became one of the leading figures of the Vatican Council, which John XXIII himself had called for. He played an active role in the committee for the preparation of the Council. When the ecumenical assembly started its work, Paul VI appointed him to be a member of the leading body together with Cardinals Agagianian, D"pfner, and Lercaro. His interventions were always remarkable and incisive, especially with regard to the diaconate, episcopal ministry, and ecclesiology in general. John Paul II expressed his sorrow for the death of Cardinal Suenens in a telegram to his successor Cardinal Danneels, the current Archbishop of Malines-Brussels. In the telegram, the Holy Father underlined Cardinal Suenens’s apostolic zeal in serving his diocese and the Church of Belgium. He says he remembers keenly the important role Cardinal Suenens played in the theological and pastoral reflection during the sessions of Vatican II, as well as his ability to lead discussions while being open to the work of the Holy Spirit and listening carefully to the Council Fathers.

May he rest in peace with our dear Lord.

 

[tom.wineman]

Prometheum_x:

I’m not sure I understand what you are saying. Could you rephrase?

It just sounded like gibberish so I assumed the HG had not opened my ears.

 

[robertaf]

Good Morning Church,

I just joined this discussion group yesterday. I left a large and very active website I had been in for 4 years. I left because there was so much anger and hatred being expressed. Yes, it was a Catholic group.

I had a lovely time yesterday reading and posting. Then this morning, I discovered this thread.

First of all, let me say that I have been a Charismatic since the 1960s. I have been a Prayer Group leader, Bible Study teacher, Church History teacher and have taught religion in several other capacities, often working directly for the Diocese, under the supervision of the Bishop.

The original poster of this thread does not have her facts straight.

The Charismatic Renewal as we know it in the Church today has a wonderful history and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Protestant faith.

When Pope John XXIII opened Vatican II, he led prayer with all the assembled and prayed for a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit, “as of a NEW PENTECOST” God heard that prayer and responded.

This began with a group of college students gathered for prayer at Duquesne Univesity.

It would be a good thing to do some reading and learn before posting such silly statements as some of the ones I have seen here.

First of all, the Charismatic Renewal, if it is authentically Catholic, should always draw folks into submission and obedience to Holy Mother Church. It will always bring us closer to the Sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist. Most of the Charismatics I have known, and being most active in the Los Angeles area, I have known many, go to Confession very regularly. That is more than can be said for many non-charismatics.

The biggest problem with the Charismatic Renewal is that many priests go along with opinions like yours and do not take pastoral care of the Charismatics in their parishes. They do not attend prayer meetings or offer any sort of help. It is in this sort of neglect that abuses most often pop up, This is also shameful where the priest is concerned. Please don’t tell me they don’t have time, I have worked with way too many Priests.
Most of what I have read here, has to do with your personal tastes and insisting that your likes are the only one you will tolerate. Is this what you call “Christlike”? Is this how you love your brothers and sisters? You make us sound like a bunch of freaks. How very unkind of you.

 

[RichT]

Amen Robertaf!:clapping:

Now please let this thread die.

 

[Prometheum_x]

Robertaf,

Welcome to the forums! I hope you decide to stay around, despite the presence of the occasional problematic thread.

What you say is true: the Charismatic Renewal, at its fullest expression, draws people more deeply into the Catholic faith.

I do have one comment on something you said though. You said that it has nothing to do whatsoever with the protestant faith. This is largely true, but it must be admitted that there was at least a small protestant influence. The reason I say this is not because it merely seems like that to me, but because I know one of the Duquesne University students who was in that prayer group and was on the retreat during which this all began. He at least had been reading the book “The Cross and the Switchblade” by David Wilkerson, who was, I believe, an Assemblies of God pastor (I may be wrong on the denomination, but he was definitely a protestant charismatic).

robertaf:

Good Morning Church,

I just joined this discussion group yesterday. I left a large and very active website I had been in for 4 years. I left because there was so much anger and hatred being expressed. Yes, it was a Catholic group.

I had a lovely time yesterday reading and posting. Then this morning, I discovered this thread.

First of all, let me say that I have been a Charismatic since the 1960s. I have been a Prayer Group leader, Bible Study teacher, Church History teacher and have taught religion in several other capacities, often working directly for the Diocese, under the supervision of the Bishop.

The original poster of this thread does not have her facts straight.

The Charismatic Renewal as we know it in the Church today has a wonderful history and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Protestant faith.

When Pope John XXIII opened Vatican II, he led prayer with all the assembled and prayed for a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit, “as of a NEW PENTECOST” God heard that prayer and responded.

This began with a group of college students gathered for prayer at Duquesne Univesity.

It would be a good thing to do some reading and learn before posting such silly statements as some of the ones I have seen here.

First of all, the Charismatic Renewal, if it is authentically Catholic, should always draw folks into submission and obedience to Holy Mother Church. It will always bring us closer to the Sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist. Most of the Charismatics I have known, and being most active in the Los Angeles area, I have known many, go to Confession very regularly. That is more than can be said for many non-charismatics.

 

[Makerteacher]

misericordie:

Since I again notice many STILL!! Don’t get it, I repeat: Me, my family, and all my friends have decided that we REFUSE to attend any “catholic” mass in which the mass seems more like a night out in a merengue club, than a mass which adores CHRIST, in all contemplation, seriousness, and with the ONLY instrument of music specifically mentioned by name in the Second Vatican Council’s Document: Sacrosanctum Concillium, namely, the ORGAN…

I think we all get the fact that you personally don’t like anything but formal Masses with organ music. My question to you is direct: do you believe other masses without organ, Masses with perhaps guitars and trumpets, are NOT valid Catholic masses?

misericordie:

For some reason I have a hard time picturing Mary the Mother of Jesus, St. Mary Magdalene, and the beloved disciple dancing side to side, jumping in glee at the sight of Jesus on the Cross at Calvary. Why then if the Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Mass, is where Jesus Christ offers Himself again to the Father on the ALTAR of SACRIFICE, not so much a "table"then WHY is it, our attitude should be any different from the ATTITUDE or thinking of those who loved Christ and WHO WERE AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS?
As per the fiesta, it should not happen in mass, or less so if the fiesta ATTITUDE is based on a pentecostal ideology. Again, I will dance, yell, jump, and spin on the floor, OUTSIDE MASS!. I will only attend a MASS in which the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary is renewed on the Altar of Sacrifice, and well, which has no rock and roll, um, that would be a CATHOLIC Mass. Mass is NOT to do our thing, but to participate in the adoration of God, especially in the Eucharist. The merengue can be held in the parish hall downstairs, and then there can even be cookies and coffee too.

Charismatic Masses near you must be really whacky because I have attended Charismatics Masses in Texas, Louisiana, New Jersey, Alabama, California, Ohio, and three countries in Europe, and NEVER seen people yell, spin on the floor, or jump and dance during Mass. We sing, and vibrantly too. We may enjoy the glory of prayer tongues, especially at the elevation during Consecration. We may lift our hands in praise. I can honestly tell you that in 20 years of attending Masses both “formal” and Charismatic, I have NEVER seen what you are describing. I have never heard rock n roll in our Masses either, though we do have energetic music and a time of adoration and praise before and after the Mass.

Miseriecordie, from what I can tell, you are arguing against a non-existant straw man here. I invite you sincerely to join us here in Texas for our next Charismatic Mass, scheduled for August 15th.

 

[robertaf]

You may very well be right about one of the students reading David Wilkersons book. He was an Assemblies of God pastor and had been down in Southern California before moving to New York.
This book was so popular that most Catholics I knew was passing it around. I do not mean Charismatic Catholics but all flavors of Catholics. A priest gave it to me.
It was a book about faith and love of God. Back then, after the close of Vatican II, Catholics were reading many non Catholic books. We had been restricted for so long, I think, that it was sort of the thing to do. The entire Church was being shaken up back then. As Pope John XXIII said, the windows were tossed open and the cobwebs swept out. That was a profound time for the Church.
Many Priests left the Church as did many Religious. Lots of lay folks left, too.
The Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church in Southern California actually was very interesting. Many mainline Protestants attended our Prayer Meetings. Their denominations did not welcome the Charismatic expression. A bunch of these folks were ordained ministers. They came to us and received an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Many converted but others went and started what was to become the first non-denominational Churches. Back then they were called inner-denominational.

You see, most of the early Protestant non-denominational “fellowships” (not meaning AofG or other Pentecostals) started in the Roman Catholic Church and we did not get our start with them.

Amazing, isn’t it?

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_10.gif

 

[Prometheum_x]

robertaf:

You may very well be right about one of the students reading David Wilkersons book. He was an Assemblies of God pastor and had been down in Southern California before moving to New York.
This book was so popular that most Catholics I knew was passing it around. I do not mean Charismatic Catholics but all flavors of Catholics. A priest gave it to me.
It was a book about faith and love of God. Back then, after the close of Vatican II, Catholics were reading many non Catholic books. We had been restricted for so long, I think, that it was sort of the thing to do. The entire Church was being shaken up back then. As Pope John XXIII said, the windows were tossed open and the cobwebs swept out. That was a profound time for the Church.
Many Priests left the Church as did many Religious. Lots of lay folks left, too.
The Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church in Southern California actually was very interesting. Many mainline Protestants attended our Prayer Meetings. Their denominations did not welcome the Charismatic expression. A bunch of these folks were ordained ministers. They came to us and received an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Many converted but others went and started what was to become the first non-denominational Churches. Back then they were called inner-denominational.

You see, most of the early Protestant non-denominational “fellowships” (not meaning AofG or other Pentecostals) started in the Roman Catholic Church and we did not get our start with them.

Amazing, isn’t it?

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_10.gif

Very interesting. I was unaware of the “other side” of the story. Thanks for sharing the information.

 

[misericordie]

I guess the classic (name removed by moderator)rint of a cult, is the refusal to accept any form on constuctive criticism. Or many see the true aspects of something as a personal attack on them. This is no surprise, after all this is what we are fed everyday in our secularistic culture: we must never mention anything true, including standing up for our faith, less we offend or hurt a person’s feelings. This is the idea too with the issue of abortion and the Catholic Church. Many polititions and others want the church to remain silent on the issue of abortion, and not to say it is wrong, less someone’s feelings (a pro-choice person) may be hurt. People for example (many) no longer say I think so and so, but rather, I FEEL so and so.
Well, fact is that truth never attacks anyone or anything except what is half-truth or non truth, and the truth here is that the Charismatic Movement CAME FROM THE PENTECOSTAL CHURCH, and incorporated pentecostal IDEAS, and in worship, even MIMICS them.
Many seem to think that the movement was what bought the Holy Spirit TO THE CHURCH, as if the Holy Spirit was never there before. Adoring God is not about emotion and feeling. What happens then as Saint Theresa of Avila says, in “dry” moments, when one does not feel God’s presence? Does that mean He is not there?
Some have said, with elements of truth: That, the Charismatic Movement is really a repeat of the Montanist Heresy. I tend to agree. Do I have the right as a Baptized Catholic who is Confirmed to hold this belief, yes. Now when the Pope declares EX-CATHEDRA, or in a dogmatic way, that I MUST!! be a charismatic or else I am not Catholic, then my opinion will change. However, there has been NO new dogma, and the latest one was in the year 1950: The Dogma of the Asssumption of Mary.
Please note I am NOT MENTIONING or attacking anyone here personally, I I am talking in GENERAL. If anyone takes it personally, well, sorry?:crying:
God bless you all, and have a Happy 4th of July.
PAX.

 

[Prometheum_x]

misericordie:

Many seem to think that the movement was what bought the Holy Spirit TO THE CHURCH, as if the Holy Spirit was never there before. Adoring God is not about emotion and feeling. What happens then as Saint Theresa of Avila says, in “dry” moments, when one does not feel God’s presence? Does that mean He is not there?

Which of us is refusing to accept constructive criticism? I have however noticed that you do not take the time to respond to my comments. It is quite difficult to listen to what you say when you do not provide the support for your claims that I have asked for and when you do refuse to engage in conversation with me. I feel that I have made several valid points, but you have not responded to a single one. If I went on the basis of your words alone, you too would be guilty of following feeling, as you simply state what you think to be true without providing the reasons behind your thinking.

Now, a point by point response to a few things in your post:

You said “Many seem to think that the movement was what bought the Holy Spirit TO THE CHURCH, as if the Holy Spirit was never there before.” If those people think that the Holy Spirit was not there, then they are clearly in error. However, even the Holy Father speaks of a “springtime”, implying that there was a winter.

You said, “Adoring God is not about emotion and feeling. What happens then as Saint Theresa of Avila says, in “dry” moments, when one does not feel God’s presence? Does that mean He is not there?” Adoring God is not found exclusively in emotion and feeling. However, that does not mean that emotion and feeling cannot be involved in the adoration of God. The saints can speak of dry moments because there were times that their lives were not “dry”, where they felt God’s presence. The Charismatic who teaches that one always ought to “feel” is again in error. Since I go to a charismatic parish, I know a large number of charismatics, including some who are pioneers of the Charismatic Renewal. One of them is a seminary professor who has spent a lot of time researching both St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross. I find it hard to believe that he would believe that God is not present in the dry times of life.

I hope that you find the time to reply to this and my earlier posts. Honestly, I don’t really expect you to do that. If my statements and questions are too complicated, let me know and I will simplify them. Otherwise, please specifically respond to me. I want to know what you think of the things I have written. I already know what you think in general.

In the Love of Jesus,
Jonathan

 

[Leo44]

Prometheum_x:

Which of us is refusing to accept constructive criticism? I have however noticed that you do not take the time to respond to my comments. It is quite difficult to listen to what you say when you do not provide the support for your claims that I have asked for and when you do refuse to engage in conversation with me. I feel that I have made several valid points, but you have not responded to a single one. If I went on the basis of your words alone, you too would be guilty of following feeling, as you simply state what you think to be true without providing the reasons behind your thinking.

Now, a point by point response to a few things in your post:

You said "Many seem to think that the movement was what bought the Holy Spir

it TO THE CHURCH, as if the Holy Spirit was never there before." If those people think that the Holy Spirit was not there, then they are clearly in error. However, even the Holy Father speaks of a “springtime”, implying that there was a winter.

You said, “Adoring God is not about emotion and feeling. What happens then as Saint Theresa of Avila says, in “dry” moments, when one does not feel God’s presence? Does that mean He is not there?” Adoring God is not found exclusively in emotion and feeling. However, that does not mean that emotion and feeling cannot be involved in the adoration of God. The saints can speak of dry moments because there were times that their lives were not “dry”, where they felt God’s presence. The Charismatic who teaches that one always ought to “feel” is again in error. Since I go to a charismatic parish, I know a large number of charismatics, including some who are pioneers of the Charismatic Renewal. One of them is a seminary professor who has spent a lot of time researching both St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross. I find it hard to believe that he would believe that God is not present in the dry times of life.

I hope that you find the time to reply to this and my earlier posts. Honestly, I don’t really expect you to do that. If my statements and questions are too complicated, let me know and I will simplify them. Otherwise, please specifically respond to me. I want to know what you think of the things I have written. I already know what you think in general.

In the Love of Jesus,
Jonathan

You end your post with a personal insult, perhaps you don’t even see it but it is there. Your arguments loose their impact when you do that.

 

[misericordie]

With all respect, it seems you don’t seems you REFUSE to see that the charismatic movement has had the deviations I previously posted. I did post VARIOUS examples on this threadf as to the HOW and the WHAt. However, you state that I don’t explain. IF the examples I set here are not what has happened at YOUR parish, well good. However, please don’t deny that it occurs in MOST charismatic masses. Also, there is NO SUCH thing as a Charismatic PARISH. There are however, CATHOLIC parishes, which tolerate or support the Charismatic renewal. When we humans are brain-washed into a certain idea, and someone comes along who disagrees with us, psychological denial usually comes into place.

You imply that your postings to this thread, seem to be to difficult for me to understand. The contrary has been true, it it to simplistic, and basically, fails to recognize that there has been for the majority, a total deviation from TRUE liturgical worship based on catholic TRADITION, in the charismatic renewal. Furthermore you are making arguments to subjectivally deny that, and go on to make certain statements full of fallacy BECAUSE they lack objectivity, and don’t focus on THE TOPIC but rather on ME. That in philosophical-logical argumentation is: a fallacy.
Also, with all the proof here on liturgical dancing and the rest of liturgical abuse, which DO for the most part happen at “charismatic” parishes, many still fail to accept that something HAS been wrong with the charismatic renewal(NOT THE PEOPLE: NO ONE IN PARTICULAR) in general, and until those deviations are recognized, they will CONTINUE to happen.
I end by stating yes, there are great holy people in the charismatic renewal, but most members, DO need to study very carefully the Liturgical laws and books on that liturgy, and the Mass, in order that the Mass does not become a personal whim, but rather, what the church as Mater et Magistra (Mother and Teacher) intend it to be, as found in the Rubrics of the Mass, and Liturgical law: AND HENCE JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF WHO SPEAKS TO US IN A PERFECT WAY THROUGH THE CHURCH, MORE SO THAN EVEN ON A PERSONAL WAY.
On any future post I make on this thread, I will only point to all my previous ones here, which I re-affirm.
May the peace of Christ and Mother Mary bless everyone here.:tiphat: