Comparing the Koran with the Bible

[sedonaman]

BW: "I would want you to first admit this statement:

The scripture of the New Testament is trustworthy and has not been corrupted"

i’m sorry i can’t admit this statement .

Then you are admitting that Mohammed relied on corrupted scriptures to prove his own prophethood.

 

[sedonaman]

as long as i remember , Planten was from Ahmadi sect

give me one reason to post one time from Ahmadi’s account , and in the second time with Sunni’s account

Taqiyya.

 

[elwill]

Taqiyya.

 

[elwill]

Then you are admitting that Mohammed relied on corrupted scriptures to prove his own prophethood.

somehow , yes
he relied on the corrupted scriptures of jews and christians to prove his prophethood from them

 

[elwill]

my view is very simple
mohammed (pbuh) mentioned us about jesus , his nature and his real massage

the bible contains this truth within it’s pages about islamic jesus , this dosn’t contradict our beliefs that bible contains falsehood either

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

i’m sorry i can’t admit this statement

Thank you. That’s all we need. You therefore cannot quote Christian scripture to prove Islam without committing a great intellectual dishonesty and amazing double standard.

Your further argument: “the bible contains this truth within it’s pages about islamic jesus , this dosn’t contradict our beliefs that bible contains falsehood either,” is 100% circular reasoning. “How do I know something from the past is true? It agrees with us.” That’s neither honest nor rational, and is at best shallow, as Jharek said. Likewise, in another thread, when I put forward to you the hypothetical condition of someone of a later revelation doing the same thing to the Quran and Islam, you said this:

assuming that the quran was corrupted because his relegion tells him so without any other factual verifications will be called blind faith .

My friend, what you’re committing is blind faith. You’re following the teachings of a self-proclaimed prophet and it is forcing you to lie and hold double standards when you are confronted by that which came before it. As I said earlier, you can hide behind atheist or liberal Christian academia all you want, but the fact remains that when all is said and done, the reason we’re having this conversation today is because Mohammad did not know his Judeo-Christian scripture. His prophethood was a false one given by a false god.

 

[marigal]

First of all, let me say that I am the sort of person who is heavy into research. If I’m curious about something, I’ll ask questions, and I will also look it up online or otherwise. Having said this, I will state my case below.

I have no idea why the Muslim radicals hate America. I don’t know why their goal is to cause death and destruction. This is why I am reading the Koran.

Now, I can understand why many would object to this, but my faith in Jesus is pretty strong at this point, and after some of the things I’ve seen and heard, I don’t think I’m going to becoming a Muslim any time soon. I like being Catholic, and I feel a silent strength and a quiet pride in being who I am, because being Catholic is a part of who I am.

I just want to know why. It’s driving me crazy. I want to know why they do what they did. I want to know where, exactly, in the Koran (also spelled Quran) that it states, “Thou shalt destroy thy neighbor.”

I’ve been told that the Koran is a peaceful book. I’ve also been told it’s the work of the devil. I don’t want to take either side until I’ve read that darned thing cover to cover. At the same time, I will continue to go to Mass, pray my Rosary, and hope that one day, there will by a day that Muslims and Christians can live together in peace, because even though the Muslims are mistaken in what God they worship, I’m so sick of the fighting, death, and pain that I dread turning on the news.

Our men are fighting for a great cause, and these people attacked us for no reason at all. I want to know why. Thus, this is the reason why I’m reading the Koran. And if I am sinning, if doing this is wrong, God forgive me. I’m only trying to bridge the gap in my mind that ties Islam and terrorism together.

I will try to tell you of my findings when I am through, and don’t worry: I’m also in the process of reading The New American Version of the Holy Bible for Catholics, as well. There is no way that I will neglect my faith, simply on the basis that I want to understand. God is too important for me to ignore.

Sincerely,
Tiffany

Dear Tiffany,
I am very interested in the topic you are discussing. My name is María. I am a cradle Catholic and understand your ideas quite well, but I have not read the Koran. I have read the Bible and have taken Bible courses for several years, so I know it quite well. If you love God, and your faith in Jesus is strong, there is no reason to avoid reading the Koran for instructional purposes. Pray to the Holy Spirit before you read it, and He will guide you through it. Please keep in touch and share your findings with me. God is the most important thing in my life, and I believe that we should be well informed of everything concerning our faith. God bless you! +

 

[elwill]

B.W / the main problem i see in christianity not the reliability of the bible accounts .

i see bigger problem in christianity , do you know what is it ?

your main beliefs not exist in your holy - book

in Mark 12:29 Jesus said “Here, O Israel: The Lord **our God **is one Lord.”

in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God?

in John 8:28 Jesus said “I do nothing of myself”

in John 14:28 Jesus said “My Father (GOD) is greater than I”

in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said “Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD”?

in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion
in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows

in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can’t do a single thing of his own initiative?

in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD

Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a messenger from God. He was sent from God Almighty to deliver God’s words to his people. Jesus was never God, nor ever claimed to be God. Jesus was a humble wonderful human being just like the rest of the Prophets and Messengers of God.

muslims don’t rely in these passages to believe that jesus isn’t God , quran is sufficent for muslims to believe what they believe , so my argument isn’t about muslims’s beliefs .

my argument is about christian’s beliefs , if i were christian myself and believing that Jesus’s main massage was ask his followers to divine him and believe in him as a God then why he said these words about himself

 

[wwolverine]

B.W / the main problem i see in christianity not the reliability of the bible accounts .

i see bigger problem in christianity , do you know what is it ?

your main beliefs not exist in your holy - book

in Mark 12:29 Jesus said “Here, O Israel: The Lord **our God **is one Lord.”

in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God?

in John 8:28 Jesus said “I do nothing of myself”

in John 14:28 Jesus said “My Father (GOD) is greater than I”

in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said “Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD”?

in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion
in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows

in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can’t do a single thing of his own initiative?

in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD

Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a messenger from God. He was sent from God Almighty to deliver God’s words to his people. Jesus was never God, nor ever claimed to be God. Jesus was a humble wonderful human being just like the rest of the Prophets and Messengers of God.

muslims don’t rely in these passages to believe that jesus isn’t God , quran is sufficent for muslims to believe what they believe , so my argument isn’t about muslims’s beliefs .

my argument is about christian’s beliefs , if i were christian myself and believing that Jesus’s main massage was ask his followers to divine him and believe in him as a God then why he said these words about himself

Dear Elwil,

One thing you shoud remember is that Jesus was born as man, and lived like man. If He wanted to say He was God, why did He have to be a Man? If He came as a man, than He had His purpose for it which only those who believe can accept. If He wanted to come as God, than there was no need of all that took place and one word would have been enough to cleanse the whole universe of all wrongs.

There are many mysteries which we do not know and those are only known to God, but what we know we have to accept and that is faith.

Imagine, all knowing God created angels, and than some angels rebelled against Him? Imagie God not knowing that Adam and Eve would eat the apple forbidden to them?

Well from the quotes that you have given, Jesus clearly says He is God, but only those with heart of faith to understand could understand.

Just one question for you, what if tomorrow one man comes and says that he is allah the creator of all, what would the muslim world do to him> well same was te way in old jewish lands where they too had the same harsh punishments which muslim world has like stoning woman etc.

Hope you are wise to understand.

God Bless

 

[slave_of_god]

Dear Elwil,

Just one question for you, what if tomorrow one man comes and says that he is allah the creator of all, what would the muslim world do to him> well same was te way in old jewish lands where they too had the same harsh punishments which muslim world has like stoning woman etc.

Hope you are wise to understand.

God Bless

what do you want to say ?
If one man comes and says that he is the creator of all, we should follow him ?!
No conscious man would accept that , wether jewish, christian or muslim !

 

[wwolverine]

what do you want to say ?
If one man comes and says that he is the creator of all, we should follow him ?!
No conscious man would accept that , wether jewish, christian or muslim !

Exactly. But muslims only want to know where Jesus said He is God.

God Bless

 

[benidict]

B.W / the main problem i see in christianity not the reliability of the bible accounts .

i see bigger problem in christianity , do you know what is it ?

your main beliefs not exist in your holy - book

in Mark 12:29 Jesus said “Here, O Israel: The Lord **our God **is one Lord.”

in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God?

in John 8:28 Jesus said “I do nothing of myself”

in John 14:28 Jesus said “My Father (GOD) is greater than I”

in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said “Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD”?

in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion
in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows

in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can’t do a single thing of his own initiative?

in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD

Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a messenger from God. He was sent from God Almighty to deliver God’s words to his people. Jesus was never God, nor ever claimed to be God. Jesus was a humble wonderful human being just like the rest of the Prophets and Messengers of God.

muslims don’t rely in these passages to believe that jesus isn’t God , quran is sufficent for muslims to believe what they believe , so my argument isn’t about muslims’s beliefs .

my argument is about christian’s beliefs , if i were christian myself and believing that Jesus’s main massage was ask his followers to divine him and believe in him as a God then why he said these words about himself

go therefore baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. not Names. it implies one being. not to mention, islam teaches that it was someone else died on the cross, not Jesus. nor do they believe in His ressurection. how could they? they do not teach he died on the cross anyway. also peter calls Jesus our great God and savior. Jesus himself stated “before abraham was… I AM.” he was claiming deity here, elwill. he was saying he was the same one who spoke to moses in the burning bush. the Jews recognized what he was saying and attempted to stone him. you can also read the passage where he ask why should they call him good, when only God is good. he was not denying what the man was saying. just making a point for the man to think about who what he was saying. that he was in fact good, and that he was in fact God the son. would you like more examples my friend? i would be happy to give them. Peace to you.

 

[rinnie]

B.W / the main problem i see in christianity not the reliability of the bible accounts .

i see bigger problem in christianity , do you know what is it ?

your main beliefs not exist in your holy - book

in Mark 12:29 Jesus said “Here, O Israel: The Lord **our God **is one Lord.”

in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God?

in John 8:28 Jesus said “I do nothing of myself”

in John 14:28 Jesus said “My Father (GOD) is greater than I”

in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said “Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD”?

in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion
in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows

in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can’t do a single thing of his own initiative?

in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD

Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a messenger from God. He was sent from God Almighty to deliver God’s words to his people. Jesus was never God, nor ever claimed to be God. Jesus was a humble wonderful human being just like the rest of the Prophets and Messengers of God.

muslims don’t rely in these passages to believe that jesus isn’t God , quran is sufficent for muslims to believe what they believe , so my argument isn’t about muslims’s beliefs .

my argument is about christian’s beliefs , if i were christian myself and believing that Jesus’s main massage was ask his followers to divine him and believe in him as a God then why he said these words about himself

The reason you are confused is because you did not continue to read the whole bible. If you did you would see there is a good reason for what Jesus did and why. Jesus did not want it to be revealed in the beginning who he was. The reason is simple, Jesus said that a person cannot glorify themself. That is why if you would read the bible the reason would be revealed to you.

1 Cor 2:1-13

 

[mangy_dog]

The only parallels exist in the Pentateuch.

Good luck with the rest.

 

[scottm]

B.W / the main problem i see in christianity not the reliability of the bible accounts .

i see bigger problem in christianity , do you know what is it ?

your main beliefs not exist in your holy - book

in Mark 12:29 Jesus said “Here, O Israel: The Lord **our God **is one Lord.”

in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God?

in John 8:28 Jesus said “I do nothing of myself”

in John 14:28 Jesus said “My Father (GOD) is greater than I”

in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said “Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD”?

in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion
in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows

in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can’t do a single thing of his own initiative?

in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD

Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a messenger from God. He was sent from God Almighty to deliver God’s words to his people. Jesus was never God, nor ever claimed to be God. Jesus was a humble wonderful human being just like the rest of the Prophets and Messengers of God.

muslims don’t rely in these passages to believe that jesus isn’t God , quran is sufficent for muslims to believe what they believe , so my argument isn’t about muslims’s beliefs .

my argument is about christian’s beliefs , if i were christian myself and believing that Jesus’s main massage was ask his followers to divine him and believe in him as a God then why he said these words about himself

Good. Keep all of those verses. Keep them. Add to them the following list. I’ll say again: Keep all of those verses that you Google-searched, and add to them the following verses. Then reconcile all of them as a single group. You have to reconcile all of them, not just some of them, not just your Google-searched subset. All of them.

When you do that you’ll have the trinity of the Nicene Creed, which is utterly different than the trinity condemned in the Koran.

Matthew 14:33
contrast this worship with Acts 10:25-26, Revelation 22:8-9, and Deuteronomy 5:8-9

Matthew 26:64-66
the audience understood this as a claim of deity in violation of Deuteronomy 5:6-7

Matthew 28:18
Jesus claims to have the authority of the God of heaven

Mark 2:5-12
Jesus takes for himself a privilege and power that is reserved to God alone

Luke 24:52
contrast this worship with Deuteronomy 5:6-9

John 1:1-14
Compare this to Genesis 1-2. Jesus is the God that created the universe.

John 2:19-21
Jesus claimed to rise from the dead under his own power. Contrast this with 1 Kings 17:17-24, 2 Kings 4:32-37, and Acts 9:32-42, where men of God raised the dead not by their power but by God’s power.

John 7:37-38 and 8:12
In the context of the Festival of Booths (verse 7:2) claims to be the source of “living water” and the “light of the world” are naked assertions of deity.

John 8:48-59
Jesus claims to be God’s glory, and he claims for himself the name by which Moses knew God

John 10:30-33
“The Father and I are one” [Greek, “one thing”] was understood by the audience as a claim to be the God of the Old Testament in violation of Deuteronomy 5:6-7.

John 10:38
Jesus and the Father are one, not two

John 14:8-11
Jesus and the Father are one, not two

John 20:28
contrast this with Deuteronomy 5:6-9

Acts 4:12
If Noah, Abraham, Jonah, and Moses read this, they would conclude that Jesus is their God.

2 Corinthians 4:4
contrast this “image of God” language with Deuteronomy 5:8-9

Philippians 2:6-11
contrast this “being in very nature God” and “every knee shall bow” with Deuteronomy 5:6-9

Colossians 1:19 and 2:9
“fullness of the deity” implies that God did not hold back, which in turn implies that Jesus is God

Hebrews 1:1-14
creator, exact representation of God, radiance of God’s glory, sustainer, imprint of God’s very being, sits on the throne, accepts the worship of God’s angels, controls God’s angels, eternal – all of these imply that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament

James 2:19
there is only one God, not two

1 John 2:2
that Jesus died for the whole world implies that he is more than human, more than a prophet

1 John 2:13
existing from eternity past implies self-creation, a characteristic reserved to God alone

1 John 5:12 & 20
that Jesus is eternal life implies self-creation, a characteristic reserved to God alone

1 John 5:20
“Jesus is the true God”

 

[sedonaman]

somehow , yes
he relied on the corrupted scriptures of jews and christians to prove his prophethood from them

Then Islam can’t be true because truth can’t come from error.

 

[sedonaman]

my view is very simple
mohammed (pbuh) mentioned us about jesus , his nature and his real massage

the bible contains this truth within it’s pages about islamic jesus , this dosn’t contradict our beliefs that bible contains falsehood either

Are the Sermon on the Mount and The Lord’s Prayer, two of His teachings in the Bible, mentioned in the Koran, or are they left out because they are “corruptions”?

 

[sedonaman]

…But muslims only want to know where Jesus said He is God. …

Jesus did not make such a direct statement so He avoid falling into the same problem that Mohammed is in: self proclamation.

MOCatholic:

… we know that the Quran cannot “confirm whatever Scripture was before it.”
… the test Christians are supposed to use (Quran confirming the Gospel, Gospel prophesying Mohammed), according to the Quran itself, will lead NO ONE to Islam - and will in fact cause Christians to REJECT Islam. …

This is very perceptive. Error cannot produce truth. Any idea that relies on error to prove itself is itself in error.
Fact # 1: Mohammed relies on the Bible to verify himself as a prophet. [The fact that he is self-proclaimed is another problem by itself.]
Fact # 2: Mohammed says the Bible is in error [through “corruption”].
Fact # 3: Because they rely on error, Mohammed and Islam, therefore, are in error and should be rejected based on their own contradictory claims.
Consequently, Mohammed has placed himself in an inescapable dilemma of validating himself by relying on what he says is error.

Those are the conclusions of this analysis:Quote:

Conclusions about Islam

So, we conclude from this intensive study that we must reject Islam’s claims as well. There are two main reasons for this rejection. First, though Islam has historically identifiable origins these origins do not provide any reason for concluding that Mohammed’s teachings are an accurate view of God, the universe, and mankind. Instead, the circumstances surrounding the origin and rise of Islam can clearly be understood simply as a product of normal human affairs and ambitions.
…
Second, the evidence that Islam does offer to substantiate the accuracy of its claims has shown to be invalid. Islam contends that it is the final successor to the Judeo-Christian tradition, which it claims expected Islam and which Islam also claims to fulfill and confirm. However, as we have shown above neither Judaism nor Christianity allows for the teachings of Mohammed. And additionally, Islam undermines the fundamental claims made by both of its supposed predecessors.

Islam is also invalidated by its claims to come from and uphold the Judeo-Christian tradition, which Islam claims is from God. Since the Judeo-Christian tradition in no way permits Islamic teaching then Islam must be in error either in its own teaching, which deviates from that of Judaism and Christianity, or Islam must be in error in its assertion that the Judeo-Christian tradition is of God.

Despite the fact that Islam is an Evidentiary religion, an examination of that evidence has revealed that it does not substantiate the claims of Islam. But instead, the evidence offered actually contradicts Islam. So, for both of the reasons summarized in the preceding paragraphs, we reject the claims of Islam and proceed to the final stage of our study, our analysis of Judaism and Christianity.

Unquote.

On a higher level, "God has ordered all things in measure, number and weight.” IOW, the Judeo-Christian God is a God of reason; a perusal of the 99 names for Allah would lead us to conclude he is the god of confusion, and no person using right reason would believe in him since he cannot stand up to the same critical analysis that God of the Bible has. In fact, he cannot reconcile even Facts #1, 2, and 3 above. In short, in order to believe in Allah and Mohammed, you have to accept the “Catch 22” situation of having already to believe in Allah and Mohammed. IOW, in order to get there, you have to be there already.

 

[autdrew]

Why would Allah tell mohammad to verify his profithood by going to the scriptures of Jews & Christians when Allah knew them to be corrupted? It seems Allah set mohommad up for rejection & create enmity between them. Doesnt sound like something God would do.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

B.W / the main problem i see in christianity not the reliability of the bible accounts .

i see bigger problem in christianity , do you know what is it ?

Actually, the bigger problem is, even after people have pointed a great intellectual dishonesty in your debate tactic, you have the gall to do it again. I can only assume you didn’t even read my post.