Coptic Orthodox coming into communion with St Peter

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Ah … Thank you for pointing that out. I guess I missed that qualifier. :cool:

Yes, we can confidently say that not all Anglican minsters have valid orders.
 
In re Anglican orders, one must, I think, also consider two other factors:

(a) At one time, the Old Catholics had Apostolic Succession, but now with their bishopesses, the Apostolic Succession is broken. Yeah, sure, there may be some bishops who still have it, but any bishop “consecrated” by a bishopess is out of luck.

(b) Even when the Old Catholics had clear Apostolic Succession, if they were involved with an Anglican ordination it would have been in the role of co-consecrator. Since a co-consecrator is not required, the succession cannot really be passed along that way. IOW, it is the principal consecrator who actually accomplished the ordination.
 
This is a common misconception. You’re right about the over-a-century part (Apostolicae Curae was 1896) but the position only says that the original Anglican orders were lost. In other words, we can definitely say that if Anglicans have valid orders, it is through the Old Catholic lines of succession. (Anglicans and Old Catholics came into full communion in the early 20th century, but I forget when exactly.)
It was 1931, the Bonn Agreement.
 
Hello all,

During liturgy this morning I was so upset that I could not recieve the body and blood during the mass. Afterwards I spoke to the priest, had my first catholic confession, and was recieved into the catholic church with q statement of faith.

It feels amazing to be in communion with st peter. Please continue to pray for me.
 
Welcome! You are in our prayers! 🙂

Are you really part of the UGCC? If I’m not wrong, canon law says that Orthodox converts are automatically translated into their corresponding sui iuris Church (in your case the Coptic Catholic Church), even though you were accepted in a UGCC parish by a UGCC priest. Obviously this does not restrict you from attending any other Catholic parish at all - Eastern or Western. 🙂
 
It is a matter of perspective. The Copts think Catholics are heretics with a faulty Christology. So they don’t accept our baptism. You can call it sacrilegious or what ever, but that really doesn’t say anything. The Copts obviously don’t agree. They don’t accept the Catholic idea.

To be offended by the Coptic practice seems to imply a relativist perspective. It is to assume that we all agree that we are on equal ground. But we all know that isn’t the case on either side. From the Catholic side the Copts are at the very least schismatics, from the Coptic side Catholics are heretics. Being offended by the Copts is like a Lutheran being offended that he can’t participate in the Eucharist at a Catholic Church.
I am “offended” by anyone who baptizes a person who is validly baptized (look to Church canon for reference), moreover, the idea of re-baptizing is not the same as not allowing a Lutheran access to the eucharist, i.e., the very idea behind re-baptism implies a belief that the person in question was never really Christian. Denying a Lutheran the eucharist or re-ordaining an Anglican priest is not a denial of that person’s authentic baptism or incorporation into the body of Christ.

p.s. I asked you a question earlier, how would you feel if tomorrow we started to re-baptize Copts and any other non-Catholic entering the Church?
 
Hello all,

During liturgy this morning I was so upset that I could not recieve the body and blood during the mass. Afterwards I spoke to the priest, had my first catholic confession, and was recieved into the catholic church with q statement of faith.

It feels amazing to be in communion with st peter. Please continue to pray for me.
Welcome, God bless you. I will continue to pray for you & your intentions.
 
I was the one who had mistakenly written that not all Copts do it because I had remembered incorrectly that the British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate had begun accepting Catholic converts without baptism. But those posts (as well as the post where I corrected my error, with linked reference to the letter from the BOC to the Holy Synod in Egypt stating their view that this is the practice that the Church should return to, as it is our historic practice; another user has subsequently linked to that same document, so I will not do so again here) were taken out of the thread by the moderator, so perhaps Josie L didn’t see them.

If that is the case: No, Josie L., I am sorry for misleading you earlier due to my own mistake, but it is not true that some Copts don’t baptize Catholics**. Apparently all do, even though (personal opinion time) none should, since our historic practice is to accept all Chalcedonians the same (without baptism, with confession of faith, etc.). **To the extent that we have moved away from the historic practice of our fathers, it is because of increased understanding of the differences between different groups of Chalcedonians (i.e., RCs and EOs) that have led recent popes to conclude that we cannot treat Catholics as we do Eastern Orthodox, as Catholics are even farther away from the true faith (not just in Christology, but in ecclesiology, soteriology, etc.). Again, I do not think this is the right thing to be doing, but I do understand the motivations behind doing it, and hope you do now, too. In light of the idea that in accepting baptism we are accepting also particular dogmas of a given communion (see HG Bishop Youssef on that here), there can be no such thing as accepting the baptism of another communion with whom we are dogmatically disunited on so many issues. (And, since I can sense you thinking it, why then do we apparently accept EO baptisms when we are not united on matters of Christology? Honestly, you got me…this is precisely why I’m against carving up the Chalcedonians in this way, and really do think that a confession of faith is perfectly acceptable, since it is what you are accepting by becoming Orthodox that I care about, not what you might’ve accepted before when baptized into a heterodox confession…but still, I am obedient and can only hope that the Synod sees the wisdom in the BOC’s very reasonable and historically consistent suggestion.)
Thank you, Dhzeremi for this honest post, I hope others have read it as well, i.e., it is my belief that we should not baptize those already validly baptized (Trinitarian formula/water) because of my understanding of what the fathers/ecumenical councils have said on the matter. God bless!
 
Welcome! Prayers for you…

God’s Spirit is in my heart,
He has called me and set me apart.
This is what I have to do,
what I have to do.

He sent me to give the Good News to the poor,
Tell prisoners that they are prisoners no more,
Tell blind people that they can see,
And set the downtrodden free
And go tell everyone the news that the Kingdom of God has come,
And go tell everyone the news that the Kingdom of God has come.

Just as the Father sent me,
So I’m sending you out to be
My witnesses throughout the world,
The whole of the world.

Don’t worry what you have to say,
Don’t worry because on that day
God’s Spirit will speak in your heart,
Will speak in your heart.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be world without end. Amen
 
Hello all,

During liturgy this morning I was so upset that I could not recieve the body and blood during the mass. Afterwards I spoke to the priest, had my first catholic confession, and was recieved into the catholic church with q statement of faith.

It feels amazing to be in communion with st peter. Please continue to pray for me.
Congratulations on becoming Catholic. Welcome home.
 
In re Anglican orders, one must, I think, also consider two other factors:

(a) At one time, the Old Catholics had Apostolic Succession, but now with their bishopesses, the Apostolic Succession is broken. Yeah, sure, there may be some bishops who still have it, but any bishop “consecrated” by a bishopess is out of luck.

(b) Even when the Old Catholics had clear Apostolic Succession, if they were involved with an Anglican ordination it would have been in the role of co-consecrator. Since a co-consecrator is not required, the succession cannot really be passed along that way. IOW, it is the principal consecrator who actually accomplished the ordination.
a few things:
  1. any anglican bishop who was ordained deacon, or priest by a female bishop or other invalid bishop is invalidly ordained; they are thus invalid matter for ordination to bishop.
  2. The whole point of coconsecrators is to back up the succession in case the primary turns out to be invalid. Only if all the coconsecrators, including the primary, are invalid is the would-be bishop axiomatically invalid.
  3. Anglican orders were deemed lost based upon a multi-issue flaw - part of which is a possibly invalid ordination formula; Part of which was the temporary abolishment of the episcopacy in the Anglican church; part of it was the borderline heresies of the Anglican church (notably the low-church side).
The 39 articles show that they defected from the Apostolic Faith. Sufficiently so as to prevent their “ordination” from being valid - most notably XXV. If Ordination is not a sacrament in the same sense as baptism and the Eucharist, then their ordination is axiomatically invalid because it’s not the same as the Catholic and Orthodox Apostolic Faiths’ Ordinations.

XXV. Of the Sacraments.
Sacraments ordained of Christ be not only badges or tokens of Christian men’s profession, but rather they be certain sure witnesses, and effectual signs of grace, and God’s good will towards us, by the which he doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also strengthen and confirm our Faith in him.

There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord.

Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures, but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and the Lord’s Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.

The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same, they have a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily, purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith.

And XXXII contradicts St. Paul…

XXXII. Of the Marriage of Priests.
Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, are not commanded by God’s Law, either to vow the estate of single life, or to abstain from marriage: therefore it is lawful for them, as for all other Christian men, to marry at their own discretion, as they shall judge the same to serve better to godliness. This violates the long standing faith of the church, and to a degree, St. Paul, and the councils.
 
Coptsoldier
It feels amazing to be in communion with st peter. Please continue to pray for me.
It IS amazing to be in communion with St. Peter. I am so glad you are here coptsoldier. We need people like you. Congratulations.

I will continue to pray for you Coptsoldier . . . and you please pray for me too.

God bless.

Cathoholic
 
WOW!! GREAT NEWS!!! I feel blessed that there is another fellow miaphysite in the Coptic Catholic Church!!!

Abundant blessings!
 
Hello all,

During liturgy this morning I was so upset that I could not recieve the body and blood during the mass. Afterwards I spoke to the priest, had my first catholic confession, and was recieved into the catholic church with q statement of faith.

It feels amazing to be in communion with st peter. Please continue to pray for me.
Hi coptsoldier. Quite honestly I am amazed, if not by what you described then certainly by this thread (which is saying something, as I’ve been here for a while).

But that aside, thanks for the update. 🙂
 
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