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AlNg
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What i read is that Pope Francis has said that the possession of nuclear weapons is immoral. So if anything, we need a program that supports peace in the world.
Could Joe Biden be reached?
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StudentMI
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That’s opening a whole can of worms. I’ll just say Hilaire Belloc touches on slavery in his book The Servile State. Let’s just agree slavery is immoral.
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Maximus1
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I don’t have problems with defense and peace. I just said I didn’t see military it in the Gospel message.
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Maximus1
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I think it a simple issue. ( Chattel slavery). It cannot be reconciled with the Gospel. And the idea of Ham’s offspring is hideous
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StudentMI
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It is a simple issue, agreed.
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Randolph
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You can have your opinions. But that does not make them true. The Church does not support a particular economic system. It warns about the dangers of capitalism and consumerism. But it has specifically condemned socialism and secularism. Having wealth and building wealth is not contrary to Church teaching. There is no perfect economic system. But history has shown capitalism has worked well; whereas socialism has failed repeatedly. Venezuela is its latest victim. Defending sovereignty and self defense is consistent with Vatican 2 and the perennial teaching of the Church.
Indeed, charity is in the heart of the Church. But the church allows for prudential judgement as for how it to be carried out. All nations have the right and obligation to protect and defend their borders. Otherwise, they themselves would be victims of foreign conquests and allow invaders to abuse and possible enslave their own citizens. In speaking of “welcoming strangers” as you put it, would you open doors of your own house to accommodate any strangers that want to come in and stay? If yes, then what would that say about your own responsibility to your spouse and your children—exposing them to unknown dangers?
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StudentMI
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It may not say “follow this exact eocnomic system,” but Catholic social teaching is magisterial and has plenty to say about the economic system. This article does a great job summarizing in five or six points near the end the gist of it.
In addition, let us not forget it speaks of government intervention, socialization of some means of production, unions, structural causes of poverty, work place democracy, worker co-operatives, etc.
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Maximus1
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The right to defend the border is intentionally vague.
First, the right to " maintain " borders is not absolute. It is qualified. And that qualification extends until there is an undue financial burden. There is nothing about Trump’s border policy that can be salvaged as Christian.
I didn’t support socialism. At the same time we participate in Capitalism every day and this add to a secular/ relativist nation. We try to hide from that truth.
Building wealth has a bunch of papal writings beyond this discussion. We cannot hide from the fact that it creates dangers for the Christian. It isn’t benign from a Gospel perspective
First, the right to " maintain " borders is not absolute. It is qualified. And that qualification extends until there is an undue financial burden. There is nothing about Trump’s border policy that can be salvaged as Christian.
I didn’t support socialism. At the same time we participate in Capitalism every day and this add to a secular/ relativist nation. We try to hide from that truth.
Building wealth has a bunch of papal writings beyond this discussion. We cannot hide from the fact that it creates dangers for the Christian. It isn’t benign from a Gospel perspective
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Randolph
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Thank you. Allow me to post excerpts from the document:
“ Among the many prescriptions of the Church’s social magisterium it would appear that the following, based on the repeated teaching of the popes, are taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium:
- The necessity for cooperation in economic affairs and the inadequacy of free competition as a general regulating principle for an economy;
- The right in commutative justice to a just or living wage, and as a result,
- The duty in social justice to organize the economy so that this is possible of attainment;
- The state’s duty of general supervision of the economy, but as much as possible actual regulation to be undertaken by lower bodies according to the principle of subsidiarity;
- The right of private property and the corresponding social duties of property;
- The illicitness of usury. (In view of the condemnation of usury by several medieval councils, it is probable that the injustice of usury has been taught infallibly by the extraordinary magisterium.)
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StudentMI
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Thanks for posting. It kept signing me out of here when I switched windows.
Keep in mind of course that’s his opinion but I think he supports it well and it fits with what I’ve read of it.
Keep in mind of course that’s his opinion but I think he supports it well and it fits with what I’ve read of it.
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Maximus1
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There is absolutely no way to claim the American economic system follows Catholic Social teaching or Socialism does. But we could if we had the will.
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StudentMI
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Agreed. In his book Thomas Storck says that when people say oh Catholic social teaching is too hard to follow, so is chastity, but we don’t change the teaching on that.
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Maximus1
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You can’t serve God and Mammon. Yup it is hard in a system that conditions us to know no better
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Randolph
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It’s a perennial teaching of the Church that nations have the right and obligation to defend their sovereignty—for one, to protect their citizens and country from harms. What do you think customs/immigration checks at international airports are for? Currently, there are around 14 million illegal immigrants in the US costing US tax payers around $130 billion dollars. Mind you that Biden has promised to give all illegal immigrants (14 million people) free healthcare.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...nts-in-us-taxpayer-cost-130-billion?_amp=true
Yes, there are dangers in capitalism. But there is no connection that link capitalism to secularism and relativism. That is just your opinion masquerading as fact. Many, many people who support capitalism don’t subscribe to secularism and relativism.
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Randolph
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Then, what economic system should we be in? What system that would ensure everyone would not serve Mammon?
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Randolph
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Since the Church does not endorse any particular economic system either…
But the Church does offer principles that should exist in all economic systems; mainly embracing charity, fairness, properly regulated competition, anti usury, humane treatment of laborers, etc…
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You might be on to something, but other countries have subdivisions that have some degree of sovereignty within themselves — Canada, Australia, and possibly Switzerland come to mind (in Switzerland, you are not just a citizen of Switzerland, but of the canton where you live) — but the party system, and two parties, are found nowhere in the US Constitution. The two-party system just morphed into being, possibly as a matter of convenience to prevent presidential elections from going to the House of Representatives time and again, possibly just because it’s simpler.
In the UK, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and (to some extent) Wales all have significant levels of self-government, and in France, the Alsace-Moselle region has some state involvement with the churches, this a holdover from German rule and distinct from the French government policy of laïcité (secularism).
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StudentMI
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There are in my opinion some closely related systems. Mutualism, for one. Distributism is based on Catholic social teaching.
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Randolph
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There is a debate whether the current US federal income tax system is a form of distributism. The top 10 percent earners pay for about 70% of the total federal income tax.
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StudentMI
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That’s not what distributism is. That’s redistribution.
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