Dave's Allegation That Catholics Are Idolators

[Curious]

To dave and those that agree with him:

How come you don’t accept the explanations about ‘prayer’ to saints and Mary as has been described? I think a Catholic would know just a weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee bit better than you do about what he/she believes. If a Catholic says they ask for intercession from Mary/saints then why do you still insist they worship? (by worship I mean worship like they do God). By doing this, you maintain that all Catholics put Mary and the Saints on the same level as God and then turn around and lie and say they don’t. That’s just stupid.

And answer the question about the mattress. Answer the question about bowing before kings and stuff…they did that in OT bible and God didn’t smite them every 5 seconds for paying respect to the king.

 

[Shinobu]

According to the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”:

Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.

Catholicism does not reject the unique Lordship of God.

 

[michaelp]

OK. I am going to get in here for a minute with a serious question. This is not an allegation, but a point of curiosity and contention that I see with the veneration of Mary and the saints. Please take this as an honest question.

You all my be familiar with Henotheism. Henotheism is an ancient worldview/religion that believed and worshipped only one supreme creator being that was greater than all other beings. But they did not say that he was the only object of worship since they had other “gods” as well that they gave adoration to.

Textbook definition of Henotheism is the “belief in one God without denying adoration, reverence, power, and worship to others.” The Hebrews were on and off henotheists as they would turn to other God’s, but yet still maintain a surpreme devotion (at least in confession) to Yahwah.

Now, henotheists do not say that the other personalities of verneration are surpreme like the one supreme God (say Zeus), but they do pray to the other God’s for things in areas that they believe they have particular influence (e.g. rain, fertility, weather, etc).

Now, from the outsider looking in, I do see what other would be saying when they accuse Roman Catholics of breaking the first and second commandments (I know that you combine them into one).

Frankly, it looks just like henotheism.

Where have I gone wrong?

I don’t mean to accuse, I just thought that I would show you the association.

Michael

 

[MariaG]

posted by MichaelP

OK. I am going to get in here for a minute with a serious question. This is not an allegation, but a point of curiosity and contention that I see with the veneration of Mary and the saints. Please take this as an honest question.

You all my be familiar with Henotheism. Henotheism is an ancient worldview/religion that believed and worshipped only one supreme creator being that was greater than all other beings. But they did not say that he was the only object of worship since they had other “gods” as well that they gave adoration to.

Textbook definition of Henotheism is the “belief in one God without denying adoration, reverence, power, and worship to others.” The Hebrews were on and off henotheists as they would turn to other God’s, but yet still maintain a surpreme devotion (at least in confession) to Yahwah.

Now, henotheists do not say that the other personalities of verneration are surpreme like the one supreme God (say Zeus), but they do pray to the other God’s for things in areas that they believe they have particular influence (e.g. rain, fertility, weather, etc).

Now, from the outsider looking in, I do see what other would be saying when they accuse Roman Catholics of breaking the first and second commandments (I know that you combine them into one).

Frankly, it looks just like henotheism.

Where have I gone wrong?

I don’t mean to accuse, I just thought that I would show you the association.

Michael

Well thought out question Michael. I hope I can answer your concerns.

First of all, we only have one creator that we worship. The Mary and the Saints are not worshipped.

When we “pray” to the saints, there is a difference in the usage of the word. Coming from Protestant arena, I never say pray to saints I say what the intent is, ask Mary or the saint to pray to God for me. When I do this, it is in the same way I would ask you to pray for me Michael. Pray is an old word that today, most Christians see as applying only to God or you are not a Christian. This has not always been the case. Worship and devotion also have come to suffer the same fate.

If I ask St. Anthony to pray for me because I lost my keys, if I find my keys quickly it is not because St. Anthony did anything but pray for me. All power and glory belong to God.

So the difference is that Catholics do not believe in lessor Gods, but only one God and only worship that God. And when we ask Saints to pray for us, we know and understand that God is the one who answered them.

To not ask part of God’s Church, the Church Triumphant, which is one body of Christ, to pray for us would be as foolish to us as not asking the Church militant to pray for us. The separation Protestants have for those who are alive in Christ but no longer walking this earth is foreign to Catholic Christians and the Historical church. Christ has but one body, and those who have died do not become separated from His body.

And the Bible does not show those who have died to be uninterested in those on earth, but intensely interested. To think that someone like St. Stephen, who on his dying breath asked God to forgive those who were killing him, to think he would no longer pray for those who are still lost and those who are still fighting, is unthinkable to Catholic Christians.

I hope this helps a little. I did not cite the Scripture references, my time is limited, but if you want them I will find them later.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[jimmy]

michaelp:

OK. I am going to get in here for a minute with a serious question. This is not an allegation, but a point of curiosity and contention that I see with the veneration of Mary and the saints. Please take this as an honest question.

You all my be familiar with Henotheism. Henotheism is an ancient worldview/religion that believed and worshipped only one supreme creator being that was greater than all other beings. But they did not say that he was the only object of worship since they had other “gods” as well that they gave adoration to.

Textbook definition of Henotheism is the “belief in one God without denying adoration, reverence, power, and worship to others.” The Hebrews were on and off henotheists as they would turn to other God’s, but yet still maintain a surpreme devotion (at least in confession) to Yahwah.

Now, henotheists do not say that the other personalities of verneration are surpreme like the one supreme God (say Zeus), but they do pray to the other God’s for things in areas that they believe they have particular influence (e.g. rain, fertility, weather, etc).

Now, from the outsider looking in, I do see what other would be saying when they accuse Roman Catholics of breaking the first and second commandments (I know that you combine them into one).

Frankly, it looks just like henotheism.

Where have I gone wrong?

I don’t mean to accuse, I just thought that I would show you the association.

Michael

Hello Michaelp, very good question.

The main difference I would say between henotheism and Catholisism, in this case, would be who it is that we show honor to. A henotheist worshiped one god who was supreme, but also worshiped gods like zues and others. A Catholic simply asks a saint to help them in time of need by praying for them.

One of the major differences here is that a Catholic is asking those people who lived an incredible life here on earth for Christ. They succeeded here on earth in the worship of God. They are those who have done Gods will and have been cleansed of all sins and evil and are now in heaven with God.

All we ask a saint is to “pray for us to the Lord our God.”. When we do this, we are worshiping God himself.

A henotheist is worshiping one God while asking someo god that has nothing to do with Yahwah to help them. The difference I point out is that we are asking for help from those that support God, they are asking for help from an outsider. In our case all worship goes to the one God, in there case they worship many gods with one supreme god.

 

[MaggieOH]

Lisa4Catholics:

In England they will bow to the Queen Whats your point?Oh and you forgot to vote:whacky: #4

they do not just bow, they curtsey or as we would say “genuflect” to the queen. It is a bob that is done.

Maggie

 

[Church_Militant]

Mp,
This is a new one on me…and frankly, one reason I don’t study things that I consider silly.

Now…Catholics do not offer WORSHIP or, ADORATION to anyone BUT God.

In spite of some of the so-called scholarly word studies of the words for worship, the dead level FACT is that Catholics worship ONLY almighty God. Weird stuff like this aside…it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Catholicism. This is just someone’s theological jive that has nothing, but nothing to do with Catholic belief and practice.

I’m highly surprised that you would even offer such a thing as long as you’ve hung around with us here at CA and as much as you’ve studied Catholic teaching. Why haven’t you posted this to the AAA thread?
Pax vobiscum,

 

[st_felicity]

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html

From the Catechism

**IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .” **

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: “Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure…”[66] It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time “he is greater than all his works.”[67] He is “the author of beauty.”[68]

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.[69]

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images. 2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”[70] The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.[71]

 

[michaelp]

Church Militant:

Mp,
This is a new one on me…and frankly, one reason I don’t study things that I consider silly.

Now…Catholics do not offer WORSHIP or, ADORATION to anyone BUT God.

In spite of some of the so-called scholarly word studies of the words for worship, the dead level FACT is that Catholics worship ONLY almighty God. Weird stuff like this aside…it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Catholicism. This is just someone’s theological jive that has nothing, but nothing to do with Catholic belief and practice.

I’m highly surprised that you would even offer such a thing as long as you’ve hung around with us here at CA and as much as you’ve studied Catholic teaching. Why haven’t you posted this to the AAA thread?
Pax vobiscum,

Good question Pax, but I honestly see better answers from you all than from the AA forum.

These responses have certianly given me something to think about.

Thanks,

Michael

 

[jimmy]

michaelp:

Good question Pax, but I honestly see better answers from you all than from the AA forum.

These responses have certianly given me something to think about.

Thanks,

Michael

I am flattered that you find us on the level of the apologists. Maybe that is because with us you have the ability for discussion so that you can argue your points and see our response?

 

[MaggieOH]

Angainor:

Is “having a lend of” aussie for “being sarcastic”?

I do not think Catholics, as a general rule, are idolators. I do think there are many things in Catholicism that can distract Catholics from what is important. Overly adoring The Church itself is one danger. Overly adoring the Eucharist is another. Taken to the extreme, I think that can wind up being a kind of Idolatry.

I do not know who Jack Chick is, but I guess he is an anti-Catholic Fundamentalist.

Angainor,

I do respect where you are coming from. Yes “having a lend of someone” is like ribbing them. I knew that you did not see Catholics as idolators, and that perhaps you have a few notions that still need to be ironed out. I apologise for taking your post in jest.

Now I do not see where you are getting the impression that Catholics overly adore the Church. It is the same with the Eucharist.

I can see that you mention the words “taken to extreme” and in fact I agree with the points that you are making. I do think that they are very good points to remember because some people can go to extremes with these things, whether they want to admit it or not.

We have a reverence for the Eucharist in the form of the host, because we believe that after it has been consecrated, Jesus is truly present and remains present. There is a prayer in the Mass where the priests asks the Holy Spirit to come down and “bless and approve our offering”, then we have the Consecration which is the point at which Jesus becomes truly present in the bread and wine, even though the accidents remain the same.

God Bless,

Maggie O’Hearn

 

[memberofthebody]

michaelp,

Henotheism…

Though I was well aware that there are and have been cultures and people who worshipped one, supreme creator along with other ‘gods’ in order to somehow cover every contingency that the one, supreme creator presumably could’nt cover, I had never heard it called by its proper name until I read your post. Interesting. You wrote,

You all my be familiar with Henotheism. Henotheism is an ancient worldview/religion that believed and worshipped only one supreme creator being that was greater than all other beings. But they did not say that he was the only object of worship since they had other “gods” as well that they gave adoration to.

You may or may not agree that those people were saved ***apart * ** from hearing Christ preached or having access to any Bible, when they heeded creation’s witness of God (Romans 1:20). In other words, the only God that exists or ever will exist is the only one that can assess for sincerity, a man’s exercise of faith and confer upon him the gift of salvation in exchange for that faith.

Other ‘gods’ cannot assess the condition of the human heart, forgive sin, grant salvation or even hear the entreaties of mankind, for they do not exist. Other ‘gods’ cannot feel the betrayal of their followers worshipping the One, True God but the One, True God is certainly able to feel the betrayal of his disciples worshipping other gods.

And that brings me to Mary. While Catholicism does not label her a ‘god’, it certainly does call her ‘queen’, co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix which are all as powerful monikers as the church presently dares to confer upon her. The worship, the veneration is already there. Let’s face it…the next logical leap is to god.

I spent over twenty years as a Roman Catholic and was myself accused of being a ‘statue worshipper’. I, EXACTLY like the Catholics on this forum, vehemently denied it in spite of the fact that when passing a life-sized image of the virgin Mary in church, I would genuflect and do a sign of the cross. Was I the only one? No. everyone did it. There was one thing however, I refused to do that most of the congregation did without hesitation. They would bend and kiss the feet on the image of Mary. As a result, the feet of this image were virtually indistingishable as feet. Don’t try to tell me that we were not worshipping a graven image. That is exactly what we were doing!

I spent a lot of years praying the rosary in large part to Mary, a very fine person, no doubt, but not God the Father Who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

I recited hundreds of useless little phrases entreating Mary to consider me in her prayers when it was her *Son Who paid the ultimate price for my redemption and in Whose body I was instantaneously placed when I believed * (1 Corinthians 12:13).

I have access to the very throne of God because of my acceptance, by grace through faith, of Jesus Christ. Why should I want or need to to communicate with a deceased woman, albeit a very wonderful deceased woman?

In regards to Mary, we must take into consideration what we know about men (or women) who have passed into eternity. The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Matthew 16:20 tell it clearly. The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers and “warn them lest they (also) come to this place of torment.” But this was and is an impossibility. Men, having passed into the hereafter, cannot communicate with men still living upon the earth anymore than existant men can pray to or communicate with departed loved ones or saints.

It must suffice for us to pray to those divine entities that God has provided for us to pray to…

Himself,
His Son
and the Holy Spirit.

One, True God.

Sincerely,
memberofthebody

 

[michaelp]

memberofthebody,

Very interesting. You as well have given me something to think on. Thank you,

Michael

 

[michaelp]

jimmy:

I am flattered that you find us on the level of the apologists. Maybe that is because with us you have the ability for discussion so that you can argue your points and see our response?

Yes . . .well . . . sort of. Here, this is purely a learning adventure. I have no set predisposition one way or the other at this point. Therefore, I don’t really have an “argument” to make. Just questions. I will surely take time to think this through. I certianly don’t want to misrepresent anyone.

Michael

 

[MaggieOH]

michaelp:

OK. I am going to get in here for a minute with a serious question. This is not an allegation, but a point of curiosity and contention that I see with the veneration of Mary and the saints. Please take this as an honest question.

You all my be familiar with Henotheism. Henotheism is an ancient worldview/religion that believed and worshipped only one supreme creator being that was greater than all other beings. But they did not say that he was the only object of worship since they had other “gods” as well that they gave adoration to.

Textbook definition of Henotheism is the “belief in one God without denying adoration, reverence, power, and worship to others.” The Hebrews were on and off henotheists as they would turn to other God’s, but yet still maintain a surpreme devotion (at least in confession) to Yahwah.

Now, henotheists do not say that the other personalities of verneration are surpreme like the one supreme God (say Zeus), but they do pray to the other God’s for things in areas that they believe they have particular influence (e.g. rain, fertility, weather, etc).

Now, from the outsider looking in, I do see what other would be saying when they accuse Roman Catholics of breaking the first and second commandments (I know that you combine them into one).

Frankly, it looks just like henotheism.

Where have I gone wrong?

I don’t mean to accuse, I just thought that I would show you the association.

Michael

Hi Michael,

since I had not heard of “henotheism” before I looked it up on the Internet and this is what I discovered:

bible.ca/trinity/trinity-definition-god-watchtower-JW-henotheism.htm

bible.ca/trinity/trinity-definition-god-watchtower-JW-henotheism.htm#summary

The definition of Henotheism suggests the worship of many gods, which is true of the Jehovah’s Witnesses but it is not true of the Catholic Church. Catholics worship only God.

Those we call saints are not considered to be gods. They are those who are known to have led good lives and we believe that they are with God in Heaven enjoying their promised Eternal Reward.

Hope that helps.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

memberofthebody:

michaelp,

Henotheism…

Though I was well aware that there are and have been cultures and people who worshipped one, supreme creator along with other ‘gods’ in order to somehow cover every contingency that the one, supreme creator presumably could’nt cover, I had never heard it called by its proper name until I read your post. Interesting. You wrote,

You all my be familiar with Henotheism. Henotheism is an ancient worldview/religion that believed and worshipped only one supreme creator being that was greater than all other beings. But they did not say that he was the only object of worship since they had other “gods” as well that they gave adoration to.

You may or may not agree that those people were saved ***apart ***from hearing Christ preached or having access to any Bible, when they heeded creation’s witness of God (Romans 1:20). In other words, the only God that exists or ever will exist is the only one that can assess for sincerity, a man’s exercise of faith and confer upon him the gift of salvation in exchange for that faith.

Other ‘gods’ cannot assess the condition of the human heart, forgive sin, grant salvation or even hear the entreaties of mankind, for they do not exist. Other ‘gods’ cannot feel the betrayal of their followers worshipping the One, True God but the One, True God is certainly able to feel the betrayal of his disciples worshipping other gods.

And that brings me to Mary. While Catholicism does not label her a ‘god’, it certainly does call her ‘queen’, co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix which are all as powerful monikers as the church presently dares to confer upon her. The worship, the veneration is already there. Let’s face it…the next logical leap is to god.

I spent over twenty years as a Roman Catholic and was myself accused of being a ‘statue worshipper’. I, EXACTLY like the Catholics on this forum, vehemently denied it in spite of the fact that when passing a life-sized image of the virgin Mary in church, I would genuflect and do a sign of the cross. Was I the only one? No. everyone did it. There was one thing however, I refused to do that most of the congregation did without hesitation. They would bend and kiss the feet on the image of Mary. As a result, the feet of this image were virtually indistingishable as feet. Don’t try to tell me that we were not worshipping a graven image. That is exactly what we were doing!

I spent a lot of years praying the rosary in large part to Mary, a very fine person, no doubt, but not God the Father Who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

I recited hundreds of useless little phrases entreating Mary to consider me in her prayers when it was her *Son Who paid the ultimate price for my redemption and in Whose body I was instantaneously placed when I believed *(1 Corinthians 12:13).

I have access to the very throne of God because of my acceptance, by grace through faith, of Jesus Christ. Why should I want or need to to communicate with a deceased woman, albeit a very wonderful deceased woman?

In regards to Mary, we must take into consideration what we know about men (or women) who have passed into eternity. The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Matthew 16:20 tell it clearly. The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers and “warn them lest they (also) come to this place of torment.” But this was and is an impossibility. Men, having passed into the hereafter, cannot communicate with men still living upon the earth anymore than existant men can pray to or communicate with departed loved ones or saints.

It must suffice for us to pray to those divine entities that God has provided for us to pray to…

Himself,

His Son
and the Holy Spirit.

One, True God.

Sincerely,

memberofthebody

Besides the fact that this is getting off topic, I have a few questions for you:

1. Do you believe in the Resurrection?
2. Do you believe that when you pass from this life that not even your soul will exist?
3. How does Scripture define death?

Maggie

 

[Lorarose]

And that brings me to Mary. While Catholicism does not label her a ‘god’, it certainly does call her ‘queen’, co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix which are all as powerful monikers as the church presently dares to confer upon her. The worship, the veneration is already there. Let’s face it…the next logical leap is to god.

“Queen” - This title is biblical. Jesus is a davidic king. In the davidic kingdoms the mother of the king had an official office, and her title was queen mother.
If you are going to accept Jesus as “king” - it is logical to accept His mother as the queen mother.
This is a biblical fact that, so far, has been completely ignored on this board by the anti-catholics.

Co-redemptrix. Did Mary - or did she not cooperate with God’s plan for salvation of mankind? Did she not say “Let it be done unto me…”? This is cooperation - therefore “co-redemptrix”
It, in no way, suggests her actions were EQUAL to her Son’s.
It only means she cooperated, gave aid and assistance to her Son.
Think of the title “pilot” and “co-pilot”.
Is the co-pilot EXACTLY THE SAME as the pilot?
No - the co-pilot assists the pilot.

Co-redemptrix. This is not an offical title bestowed upon Mary by the Church - and conjecture on your part that it will be is mere speculation on your part.
Some catholics do support this title as they believe Mary, as queen mother of the king, plays a special role in interceding on the behalf of christians.
The jury is still out on this one.

I would genuflect and do a sign of the cross. Was I the only one? No.

I don’t know why you would genuflect to a statue. I’ve been taught that I should genuflect towards Jesus present in the Blessed Sacrament.
Catholics do the sign of the cross whenever they pray - it is not a sign of worship - but a blessing and reminder of the Holy Trinity.

Don’t try to tell me that we were not worshipping a graven image. That is exactly what we were doing

OK - I won’t tell you that. But I will tell you that I DO NOT worhip Mary!

I spent a lot of years praying the rosary in large part to Mary, a very fine person, no doubt, but not God the Father Who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

That is a shame you were not praying to God the Father.
As a catholic I have been taught very well that I should pray to God the Father.

I recited hundreds of useless little phrases entreating Mary to consider me in her prayers when it was her Son Who paid the ultimate price for my redemption and in Whose body I was instantaneously placed when I believed (1 Corinthians 12:13).

I have not seen one catholic here deny that salvation comes from Jesus’s sacrifice.

I have access to the very throne of God because of my acceptance, by grace through faith, of Jesus Christ. Why should I want or need to to communicate with a deceased woman, albeit a very wonderful deceased woman?

Why WOULDN’T you want to communicate with the queen mother?
Why is always “either” “or” with you folks?
It is blessing upon blessing.
I worship God alone. I am saved by Jesus’s sacrifice.
I want a relationship with Jesus - why would I ignore His queen mother?
His Father is my father, His mother is my mother, His friends are my friends.
Intercession does not stop upon death - we know this from the book of revelation!

The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers and “warn them lest they (also) come to this place of torment.” But this was and is an impossibility. Men, having passed into the hereafter, cannot communicate with men still living upon the earth anymore than existant men can pray to or communicate with departed loved ones or saints

(sigh) you are misrepresenting scripture to suit your personal opinion and ignoring scripture that refutes your personal opinion.
Read the book of revelations and you will clearly see heavenly souls interceding.
You have no scriptural basis for claiming whether they can “hear” us or not! You are placing limits on God!
If God wills for them to hear us - then they hear us!

 

[jimmy]

memberofthebody:

And that brings me to Mary. While Catholicism does not label her a ‘god’, it certainly does call her ‘queen’, co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix which are all as powerful monikers as the church presently dares to confer upon her. The worship, the veneration is already there. Let’s face it…the next logical leap is to god.

As Lorarose said, Mary is the queen mother. The scriptures refer to the queen mother. She is the mother of the king.

memberofthebody:

I spent over twenty years as a Roman Catholic and was myself accused of being a ‘statue worshipper’. I, EXACTLY like the Catholics on this forum, vehemently denied it in spite of the fact that when passing a life-sized image of the virgin Mary in church, I would genuflect and do a sign of the cross. Was I the only one? No. everyone did it. There was one thing however, I refused to do that most of the congregation did without hesitation. They would bend and kiss the feet on the image of Mary. As a result, the feet of this image were virtually indistingishable as feet. Don’t try to tell me that we were not worshipping a graven image. That is exactly what we were doing!

I don’t know what the church you went to did. I have no idea what you are talking about though. I have been a Catholic for all 23 years of my life and have never seen the worship of an image.

The genuflecting thing. Everytime you cross the tabernacle you are supposed to genuflect because the body and blood of Christ is present inside. You do not genuflect to the statue of Mary.

memberofthebody:

I spent a lot of years praying the rosary in large part to Mary, a very fine person, no doubt, but not God the Father Who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

I don’t see how you can throw out the idea of the Hail Mary when you have been a Catholic. It is straight from the scripture and it is asking Mary to pray for us.

memberofthebody:

I recited hundreds of useless little phrases entreating Mary to consider me in her prayers when it was her *Son Who paid the ultimate price for my redemption and in Whose body I was instantaneously placed when I believed *(1 Corinthians 12:13).

You compare praying to Mary to the resurrection? You must have been a very uninformed Catholic because praying to Mary has nothing to do with being saved by her. We were saved by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. We pray to Mary that she will “pray for us to the Lord our God.”.

memberofthebody:

I have access to the very throne of God because of my acceptance, by grace through faith, of Jesus Christ. Why should I want or need to to communicate with a deceased woman, albeit a very wonderful deceased woman?

So you deny the resurection after death.

memberofthebody:

In regards to Mary, we must take into consideration what we know about men (or women) who have passed into eternity. The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Matthew 16:20 tell it clearly. The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers and “warn them lest they (also) come to this place of torment.” But this was and is an impossibility. Men, having passed into the hereafter, cannot communicate with men still living upon the earth anymore than existant men can pray to or communicate with departed loved ones or saints.

It must suffice for us to pray to those divine entities that God has provided for us to pray to…

The rich man was in hell, he was not in heaven. Apparently you made a very rash decision in leaving the Church because you have not thought it through completely. I want to ask you a question. If those who have died and gone to heaven can not help us, then how did the transfiguration occur? From Matt 17

apart: 2 And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. 3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Clearly Moses could communicate with Jesus after he died. Clearly he was not dead as you have claimed of Mary.

 

[Zippy]

Lisa4Catholics:

Well, here is number 3 Zippy so you too have decided to take part in the slander and falsehoods:nope: I saw you on the other thread as well Shame on you for casting false judgements:tsktsk: Judge not lest ye be judged

I only point out the CLEAR FACTS.

Seems to me you are judging me…:tsktsk:

 

[dennisknapp]

memberofthebody:

michaelp,

Henotheism…

Though I was well aware that there are and have been cultures and people who worshipped one, supreme creator along with other ‘gods’ in order to somehow cover every contingency that the one, supreme creator presumably could’nt cover, I had never heard it called by its proper name until I read your post. Interesting. You wrote,

You all my be familiar with Henotheism. Henotheism is an ancient worldview/religion that believed and worshipped only one supreme creator being that was greater than all other beings. But they did not say that he was the only object of worship since they had other “gods” as well that they gave adoration to.

You may or may not agree that those people were saved ***apart ***from hearing Christ preached or having access to any Bible, when they heeded creation’s witness of God (Romans 1:20). In other words, the only God that exists or ever will exist is the only one that can assess for sincerity, a man’s exercise of faith and confer upon him the gift of salvation in exchange for that faith.

Other ‘gods’ cannot assess the condition of the human heart, forgive sin, grant salvation or even hear the entreaties of mankind, for they do not exist. Other ‘gods’ cannot feel the betrayal of their followers worshipping the One, True God but the One, True God is certainly able to feel the betrayal of his disciples worshipping other gods.

And that brings me to Mary. While Catholicism does not label her a ‘god’, it certainly does call her ‘queen’, co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix which are all as powerful monikers as the church presently dares to confer upon her. The worship, the veneration is already there. Let’s face it…the next logical leap is to god.

I spent over twenty years as a Roman Catholic and was myself accused of being a ‘statue worshipper’. I, EXACTLY like the Catholics on this forum, vehemently denied it in spite of the fact that when passing a life-sized image of the virgin Mary in church, I would genuflect and do a sign of the cross. Was I the only one? No. everyone did it. There was one thing however, I refused to do that most of the congregation did without hesitation. They would bend and kiss the feet on the image of Mary. As a result, the feet of this image were virtually indistingishable as feet. Don’t try to tell me that we were not worshipping a graven image. That is exactly what we were doing!

I spent a lot of years praying the rosary in large part to Mary, a very fine person, no doubt, but not God the Father Who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

I recited hundreds of useless little phrases entreating Mary to consider me in her prayers when it was her *Son Who paid the ultimate price for my redemption and in Whose body I was instantaneously placed when I believed *(1 Corinthians 12:13).

I have access to the very throne of God because of my acceptance, by grace through faith, of Jesus Christ. Why should I want or need to to communicate with a deceased woman, albeit a very wonderful deceased woman?

In regards to Mary, we must take into consideration what we know about men (or women) who have passed into eternity. The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Matthew 16:20 tell it clearly. The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers and “warn them lest they (also) come to this place of torment.” But this was and is an impossibility. Men, having passed into the hereafter, cannot communicate with men still living upon the earth anymore than existant men can pray to or communicate with departed loved ones or saints.

It must suffice for us to pray to those divine entities that God has provided for us to pray to…

Himself,

His Son
and the Holy Spirit.

One, True God.

Sincerely,

memberofthebody

Hey, is this exrc, xrc, John1717, or any of the resently suspended?

Welcome back!

Peace