Dave's Allegation That Catholics Are Idolators

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To Worship is to bow down to.
In this present age many professing Christians bow down to materialism, pornography, food, sports, etc etc.
Do Catholics bow down to Mary? They most certainly do,

Do Christians celebrate Easter on a pagan holiday rather than the third day after Passover? They most certainly do. Is this idolitry? But of course.
Was Jesus born on December 25? No. He was born on the Feast of Tabernacles. Again is this mixing the profane with the holy. It most certainly is.
If Catholism was the church Christ founded it would look a lot more like Judiasm than the pagan religions which The RC have tried to assimilate.
 
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Xavier:
To Worship is to bow down to.
In this present age many professing Christians bow down to materialism, pornography, food, sports, etc etc.
Do Catholics bow down to Mary? They most certainly do,

Do Christians celebrate Easter on a pagan holiday rather than the third day after Passover? This is trash too… Easter is the celebration of the resurrection of Christ You don’t know what you’re talkin’ about as usual. You can’t even spell idolatry in your posts…They most certainly do. Is this idolitry? But of course.
Was Jesus born on December 25? No. He was born on the Feast of Tabernacles. Again is this mixing the profane with the holy. It most certainly is. Gee ! There’s only 365 days in a year and St.Paul talks about one man esteeming one day above another in his epistles…he points out that the days themselve mean little, but the celebrations of Christians have always been Christ oriented

If Catholism was the church Christ founded it would look a lot more like Judiasm than the pagan religions which The RC have tried to assimilate.
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This is total trash…Paganism was never part of Catholicism and if you had a bit of honesty you’d’ve looked into the fact that the pagans persecuted us because We were NOT pagan. Look up Julian the apostate in 361AD and see what that was all about.

Bunk…as usual See post # 4 YOUR definition of worship does line up with the Word of God
 
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Xavier:
To Worship is to bow down to.
In this present age many professing Christians bow down to materialism, pornography, food, sports, etc etc.
Do Catholics bow down to Mary? They most certainly do,

Do Christians celebrate Easter on a pagan holiday rather than the third day after Passover? They most certainly do. Is this idolitry? But of course.
Was Jesus born on December 25? No. He was born on the Feast of Tabernacles. Again is this mixing the profane with the holy. It most certainly is.
If Catholism was the church Christ founded it would look a lot more like Judiasm than the pagan religions which The RC have tried to assimilate.
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In England they will bow to the Queen:eek: Whats your point?Oh and you forgot to vote:whacky: #4
 
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Xavier:
To Worship is to bow down to.
In this present age many professing Christians bow down to materialism, pornography, food, sports, etc etc.
Do Catholics bow down to Mary? They most certainly do,

Do Christians celebrate Easter on a pagan holiday rather than the third day after Passover? They most certainly do. Is this idolitry? But of course.
Was Jesus born on December 25? No. He was born on the Feast of Tabernacles. Again is this mixing the profane with the holy. It most certainly is.
If Catholism was the church Christ founded it would look a lot more like Judiasm than the pagan religions which The RC have tried to assimilate.
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I’m sorry, but you are being just a bit silly. First off, let’s get the definition of worship:

wor·ship (wûr**’**shĭp) gurunet.com for sale
n.

  1. *]

    1. *] The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
      *] The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

      *] Ardent devotion; adoration.
      *]often Worship Chiefly British. Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.

      Now let’s get the definition for idol:

      i·dol (īd**’**l) gurunet.com for sale
      n.

      1. *]

        1. *] An image used as an object of worship.
          *] A false god.

          *] One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
          *] Something visible but without substance.

          Materialism, pornography, food, sports, you mentioned, do people really love, adore and worship these things? Do we treat these things with total love? It seems to me people treat these more as things, as dispossible items made for enjoyment. I think you are getting worship mixed up with love and addiction. You can love and like without worshipping something.

          Do you know why the Christians celebrate Easter and Christmas when they do? It’s because they wanted to give Christians a holiday to celebrate over a day the Pagans used. It would be like taking a Braffel and instead turning it into a library. You are using one not so good thing (as deemed by Christians) into something good. It was to help people to stop celebrating Pagan holidays and instead get them to celebrate Jesus.

          I do not know alot, however this thread is a good one but the results have been a mix of good and downright awful. It has resorted to name calling and threats. Instead of using this as a time to spread slander, instead take this moment to help the uneducated. Yes, it is a problem that people do think some Catholics are idolators. This is a great time to instead teach people the truth. Don’t refer to what you think, rather refer to scripture and tradition for the answers.
 
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Angainor:
Um… what? :confused:
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Angainor what was that you said about worshipping a building and the host?

I thought you were talking about the Giant Cookie in a Jack Chick tract 🙂

Maggie
 
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MaggieOH:
Hey Mike,

Angainor was having a lend of us. There is still only two who have voted yes and we know who they are.

MaggieOH
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Is “having a lend of” aussie for “being sarcastic”?

I do not think Catholics, as a general rule, are idolators. I do think there are many things in Catholicism that can distract Catholics from what is important. Overly adoring The Church itself is one danger. Overly adoring the Eucharist is another. Taken to the extreme, I think that can wind up being a kind of Idolatry.
 
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MaggieOH:
Hey Mike,

Angainor was having a lend of us. There is still only two who have voted yes and we know who they are.

MaggieOH
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Is “having a lend of” aussie for “being sarcastic”?

I do not think Catholics, as a general rule, are idolators. I do think there are many things in Catholicism that can distract Catholics from what is important. Overly adoring The Church itself is one danger. Overly adoring the Eucharist is another. Taken to the extreme, I think that can wind up being a kind of Idolatry.

I do not know who Jack Chick is, but I guess he is an anti-Catholic Fundamentalist.
 
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Shinobu:
I’m sorry, but you are being just a bit silly. First off, let’s get the definition of worship:

wor·ship (wûr**’**shĭp) gurunet.com for sale
n.

    1. *]The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
      *]The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

      *]Ardent devotion; adoration.
      *]often Worship Chiefly British. Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.

      Now let’s get the definition for idol:

      i·dol (īd**’**l) gurunet.com for sale
      n.

        1. *]An image used as an object of worship.
          *]A false god.

          *]One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
          *]Something visible but without substance.

          Materialism, pornography, food, sports, you mentioned, do people really love, adore and worship these things? Do we treat these things with total love? It seems to me people treat these more as things, as dispossible items made for enjoyment. I think you are getting worship mixed up with love and addiction. You can love and like without worshipping something.

          Do you know why the Christians celebrate Easter and Christmas when they do? It’s because they wanted to give Christians a holiday to celebrate over a day the Pagans used. It would be like taking a Braffel and instead turning it into a library. You are using one not so good thing (as deemed by Christians) into something good. It was to help people to stop celebrating Pagan holidays and instead get them to celebrate Jesus.

          I do not know alot, however this thread is a good one but the results have been a mix of good and downright awful. It has resorted to name calling and threats. Instead of using this as a time to spread slander, instead take this moment to help the uneducated. Yes, it is a problem that people do think some Catholics are idolators. This is a great time to instead teach people the truth. Don’t refer to what you think, rather refer to scripture and tradition for the answers.
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        1. Therein lies the problem.In thread after thread nothing is heard or read or even attempted to understand.Instead one attack after the other,attempted and sometimes succesful thread hijackings,with baseless statements.Scripture has been used and discounted,it would be nice to have them dialog instead of attack.To say what you think is fine but when people who are actually Catholic say it isn’t so, provide scripture,do a song and dance for the accuser it gets old since they will not listen.God Bless
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Therein lies the problem.In thread after thread nothing is heard or read or even attempted to understand.Instead one attack after the other,attempted and sometimes succesful thread hijackings,with baseless statements.Scripture has been used and discounted,it would be nice to have them dialog instead of attack.To say what you think is fine but when people who are actually Catholic say it isn’t so, provide scripture,do a song and dance for the accuser it gets old since they will not listen.God Bless
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I understand. It seems that some people never want to hear the other side, they just want to argue.
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Therein lies the problem.In thread after thread nothing is heard or read or even attempted to understand.Instead one attack after the other,attempted and sometimes succesful thread hijackings,with baseless statements.Scripture has been used and discounted,it would be nice to have them dialog instead of attack.To say what you think is fine but when people who are actually Catholic say it isn’t so, provide scripture,do a song and dance for the accuser it gets old since they will not listen.God Bless
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Where are you getting your definitions?
From a modern dictionary?

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon Strong’s Number: 7812 Browse Lexicon Original Word****Word OriginhxXa primitive rootTransliterated Word****TDNT EntryShachahTWOT - 2360**Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechshaw-khaw’ bible1.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif Verb Definition

  1. *]to bow down

    1. *](Qal) to bow down
      *](Hiphil) to depress (fig)
      *](Hithpael)

      1. *]to bow down, prostrate oneself 1c

        *]before superior in homage 1c
        *]before God in worship 1c
        *]before false gods 1c
        *]before angel

        Are you saying we have not made idols of material things?
 
Church Militant:
Okay oudave let’s try this again…
Read the graven image part of the first commandment here:
Exodus 20:1-5

“1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:”

It is clear that the prohibition is not iconoclastic as you preach, but based upon the intent of the one making and using the image. Since NO CATHOLIC EVER kneels down before any image to worship it we are not idolators at all. We are not stupid enough to confuse a mass of rock, plaster, metal, or any other created thing with the almighty and ever living God of the Universe. So you can pack up this argument and put it in the garbage can where it rightfully belongs my friend.

This thread is here because this was offtopic on the “Mary as an intercessor” thread, but needed addressing. Dave has so far ignored any attempts to accept answers to this false allegation. Please feel free to enlighten him.
Pax vobiscum,
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The New Revised Standard Version http://bible1.crosswalk.com/images/clear.gif**Exodus 20 ***Read This Chapter*20:1 Then God spoke all these words: 20:2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 20:3 you shall have no other gods before F43 me. 20:4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
what Im saying is you dont know the definition of worship thus are worshipping an idol and dont even know it.
 
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Xavier:
Where are you getting your definitions?
From a modern dictionary?

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon Strong’s Number: 7812 Browse LexiconOriginal WordWord OriginhxXa primitive rootTransliterated Word****TDNT EntryShachahTWOT - 2360**Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechshaw-khaw’ bible1.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif Verb Definition


  1. *]to bow down

    1. *](Qal) to bow down
      *](Hiphil) to depress (fig)
      *](Hithpael)

      1. *]to bow down, prostrate oneself 1c

        *]before superior in homage 1c
        *]before God in worship 1c
        *]before false gods 1c
        *]before angel

        Are you saying we have not made idols of material things?
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      1. It was me who found the definitions. I used a simple online dictionary answers.com

        I do believe some people have made idols of things. People of all sorts of religions and cultures. The way some people treat celebrities or the way the Japanese treat their pop stars. That is an unhealthy behaviour. However, to say all Catholics are idolators, don’t you think that is a bit of a hasty judgement? I agree that some people do love things in an unhealthy way.

        I take notice in your defination that you pasted, there are different definitions.
        1. (Qal) to bow down

        1. *]before superior in homage 1c
          *]before God in worship 1c
          The New Revised Standard Version http://bible1.crosswalk.com/images/clear.gif**Exodus 20 ***Read This Chapter*20:1 Then God spoke all these words: 20:2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 20:3 you shall have no other gods before F43 me. 20:4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
          Click to expand...
          There is no doubt as to what this part of scripture is saying. This is why we need Catholics here to help educate rather than just using slander and bad-mouthing people. This thread isn’t getting anywhere with all of that mess.
 
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Angainor:
Don’t forget The Church itself, or the Eucharist. Catholics are in danger of falling into the trap of worshiping those as gods.
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If I recall, Angainor, you are Lutheran? Sorry if I misremember. Catholics joyfully, unabashedly, and with great enthusiasm worship the Eucharist. Catholics understand it to be verily and truly the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ our Lord. To worship God in spirit and in truth is not idolatry. Not to worship the Eucharist would be to deny our God.
 
An idol isn’t necessarily a statue or likeness of anyone, and “worship” doesn’t need to be getting down on one’s knees and paying homage actively.

Place anything above God in importance, and you are practicing idolatry. For our Catholic devotion to Mary to be “idolatry” we would have to place our perceived importance of Mary above our perceived importance of God. Whether or not we choose to create a likeness of Mary in the form of a painting or statue is not “idolatry.”

In today’s society, even among Catholics, the practice of idolatry is sadly very common, but not in our devotion to Mary. Instead, its our addiction to the pursuit of monetary gain we seem to have a problem with. Not many of us (myself included) spend 10% of the time we spend trying to advance our careers or hit the right investment in prayer. I wonder if its even 1% of the time for that matter.

I suspect this problem extends equally to most Protestants as well. Kind of makes the argument moot doesn’t it?

sigh…gotta love lent don’t ya?
 
Church Militant:
Easy there Angainor…
Those are slightly different issues…
Of course we don’t worship the Church, but the Real Presence in the Eucharist is an issue that certainly does need and deserve it’s own thread. I’ve been thinking of starting one…Why dontcha beat me to the punch, okay?

Exporter- the thread it’s from is 'Mary as an intercessor"
Pax vobiscum, 👍
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[thread=41001]OK, here it is.[/thread]
 
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mercygate:
If I recall, Angainor, you are Lutheran? Sorry if I misremember. Catholics joyfully, unabashedly, and with great enthusiasm worship the Eucharist. Catholics understand it to be verily and truly the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ our Lord. To worship God in spirit and in truth is not idolatry. Not to worship the Eucharist would be to deny our God.
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Yes, I am Lutheran. I understand you believe in the real presence.

However, you do not call the Eucharist “Jesus”, so it is clear to me that you think there is some kind of difference between the Eucharist and Jesus. They are not exatly one in the same. For you to worship something that is not exatcly one in the same as Jesus is troubling to me. For more on this [thread=41001]click here[/thread].
 
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Angainor:
Yes, I am Lutheran. I understand you believe in the real presence.

However, you do not call the Eucharist “Jesus”, so it is clear to me that you think there is some kind of difference between the Eucharist and Jesus. They are not exatly one in the same. For you to worship something that is not exatcly one in the same as Jesus is troubling to me. For more on this [thread=41001]click here[/thread].
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Yup. We call it “Jesus.” Jesus is in the tabernacle. Jesus in the palm of my hand. We receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. If there is a difference between Jesus and Jesus, it is in the manner of his presence. But since God is everywhere, we have no trouble understanding that he can be present in the consecrated Host at the same time he is reigning from Heaven. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. I love you. I adore you. I worship you.
 
casey, you rock dude.
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tcaseyrochester:
An idol isn’t necessarily a statue or likeness of anyone, and “worship” doesn’t need to be getting down on one’s knees and paying homage actively.

Place anything above God in importance, and you are practicing idolatry. For our Catholic devotion to Mary to be “idolatry” we would have to place our perceived importance of Mary above our perceived importance of God. Whether or not we choose to create a likeness of Mary in the form of a painting or statue is not “idolatry.”

In today’s society, even among Catholics, the practice of idolatry is sadly very common, but not in our devotion to Mary. Instead, its our addiction to the pursuit of monetary gain we seem to have a problem with. Not many of us (myself included) spend 10% of the time we spend trying to advance our careers or hit the right investment in prayer. I wonder if its even 1% of the time for that matter.

I suspect this problem extends equally to most Protestants as well. Kind of makes the argument moot doesn’t it?

sigh…gotta love lent don’t ya?
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Xavier said:
The New Revised Standard Version http://bible1.crosswalk.com/images/clear.gif**Exodus 20 ***Read This Chapter*20:1 Then God spoke all these words: 20:2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 20:3 you shall have no other gods before F43 me. 20:4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
what Im saying is you dont know the definition of worship thus are worshipping an idol and dont even know it.
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Bunk! Since you make unfounded and judgemental allegations about what is within our hearts. We are not stupid enough to worship anything or anyone but God. YOU are wrong…pure and simple: Why don’t you go preach to someone who isn’t Christain and take all your biased info and definitions with you since you won’t listen to us.

We reject YOUR misguided definitintion of idol worship that does not align with the Word of God.

It is impossible to worship an idol and not know it…You have twisted the Word of God… begone…
 
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