Defending the Catholic Faith

[benedictus2]

The gospel was preached by the Apostle to people. It is not a condensed version,but it is the great news of God which is proclaimed. I guess Catholic are not considered to be evangelical by the definition of the word of bringing the good news to sinners…

Hmm a man who does not know history it seems. You and every Christian here on earth is only so because of the Catholic Church. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit the Church Wrote the Bible, the church proclaimed the Good News and evangelized the world. Your protestant proclamations are 1500 years late and corrupted and truncated to boot.

 

[benedictus2]

You guys really need to read the Bible.

We have. That is why we are asking you to do the same

And I am not asking you to read just Paul’s letters. I mean the Gospels. As Bookgirl said: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

…Faith is the root, the necessary beginning. Hope is the stem, the energy that makes the plant grow. Love is the fruit, the flower, the visible product, the bottom line. The plant of our new life in Christ is one; the life of God comes into us by faith,

Not entirely true. The life of God comes to us by baptism. That is why we baptise even babies because even they, need the life of God.

through us by hope, and out of us by the works of love. That is clearly the biblical view, and when Protestants and Catholics who know and believe the Bible discuss the issue sincerely, it is amazing how quickly and easily they come to understand and agree with each other on this, the fundamental divisive issue. Try it some time with your Protestant friend.

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine.

The Catholic and Biblical doctrine is not quite what you phrased above as I have shown.

The Catholic faith is sacramental as supported by the Bible. The protestant belief is not.
They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds.

Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!
Yes lack of proper catechism is sad and quite a big problem in the Church.

But you are being presumptous if you think you know what Catholic faith is about because we have already shown several times that you do not know. And if you say Catholics know this, then obviously they would not know YOUR doctrine, because it is not Catholic.
Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building… PETER KREEFT (see second link).

Completely agree with Peter Kreeft. But disagree with you on what that foundation is What you say is the foundation is not the ENTIRE story.

Here is my quote: Until Protestants actually start taking the Bible and start reading the gospels seriously instead of fixating on Paul, then they will not have a clear grasp of what Catholic Doctrine is about or what Christ and salvation is all about.

 

[guanophore]

The gospel was preached by the Apostle to people. It is not a condensed version,but it is the great news of God which is proclaimed. I guess Catholic are not considered to be evangelical by the definition of the word of bringing the good news to sinners…

You might be interested to look at the ancient Latin of the NT, to see how the prefaces of the four memoirs of the Apostles appear.

I think it the sense of the modern idea of “evangelical”, no. Catholics do not condense or truncate the message when bringing the good news to sinners. We understand that Jesus came to save us from our sins, and that this takes a lifetime. Although we are in agreement that it does begin at one particular point in time, the actual deliverance from sin continues until we are perfected. Whatever is not completed in this life is completed in the next, for nothing unclean can enter heaven. This is also why we do not abridge the message of salvation from the Pauline epistles.

You guys really need to read the Bible.

You seem to believe that, if we “read the Bible” we will necessarily interpret as you do . This is not the case. What you seem to want is for us to take off the glasses of Sacred Tradition. This will not happen either.

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

Yes, with sadness I must agree with you. It is a serious problem. I am glad you are asking the question, even though you are giving the wrong answer, at least it is an occasion for them to think about it, and all things work together for the good!

 

[humble_maid]

You seem to believe that, if we “read the Bible” we will necessarily interpret as you do . This is not the case. What you seem to want is for us to take off the glasses of Sacred Tradition. This will not happen either.

Yes, with sadness I must agree with you. It is a serious problem. I am glad you are asking the question, even though you are giving the wrong answer, at least it is an occasion for them to think about it, and all things work together for the good!

I do not know the belief 2ndAdam has on salvation and Heaven, but as a catholic I understand that one has to be purged of all their sins before entering Heaven. Purgatory is the place assigned to those who believe but were not perfected in their obedience to God’s will or did not have the opportunity on earth to follow God. In God’s infinite mercy He knows the hearts of sinners and judges them accordingly to their deeds and their actions…"*only such faith as is active in charity and good works (fides formata) possesses any power to justify man (cf. Galatians 5:6; 1 Corinthians 13:2), whilst faith devoid of charity and good works (fides informis) is a dead faith and in the eyes of God insufficient for justification (cf. James 2:17 sqq.)" *newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

It is not enough to simply say ‘I believe’ or ‘to be nice to others’. The Lord Jesus Himself taught us this; that satan believes in Him yet he is condemned, and how easy it is to be nice to those who are nice to you; even the thieves do this among themselves. What I am trying to say that this ‘once saved always saved’ is not true. One can lose their salvation.
Matt 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come. Nor in the world to come… From these words St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. 21, c. 13) and St. Gregory (Dialog., 4, c. 39) gather, that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and, consequently, that there is a purgatory or a middle place.

The confusion among young catholics is due in part to lack of deep understanding of their own sacred tradition and through the misconceptions prevalent in protestant views which deny catholic sacred tradition. For many years now the protestants in my community go door to door preaching these false views. Many catholics have simply turned there heads from the church and religion altogether.

I teach catechism and there is so much to learn in the confines of a schedule which is almost impossible to teach everything the church possesses as sacred tradition and biblical truths (this is a lifelong process). Few parents of the catechumens participate in setting the foundation of truth. Most are passive if not even ignorant of their own faith.

The church always was a present member in the community until recently when secularization is fast dominating the society’s view. People are less inclined towards the church and her doctrine much less to all that is holy.

Of course I can only speak of my own experience and that which is going on in my community. However it must be said that many young children have an incredible desire to understand God and the promises of Heaven given through His Holy Son Jesus. Though there are some obstacles that remain; the lack of competent teachers and the free will of people to adhere to the word of God.

God Bless

 

[zerinus]

Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

The answer to that I should have thought was obvious if you knew your scriptures:

Matthew 25:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

As someone said, you can run, but cannot hide.

 

[Cr8ton]

You might be interested to look at the ancient Latin of the NT, to see how the prefaces of the four memoirs of the Apostles appear.

I think it the sense of the modern idea of “evangelical”, no. Catholics do not condense or truncate the message when bringing the good news to sinners. We understand that Jesus came to save us from our sins, and that this takes a lifetime. Although we are in agreement that it does begin at one particular point in time, the actual deliverance from sin continues until we are perfected. Whatever is not completed in this life is completed in the next, for nothing unclean can enter heaven. This is also why we do not abridge the message of salvation from the Pauline epistles.

So correct me if I’m wrong but if one dies before “made clean” then that would resolve to the backup plan of “purgatory”? what if on dies in ripe old age but is not “made clean” yet based on their works? would that be another one who falls into the “backup plan” of purgatory?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

So correct me if I’m wrong but if one dies before “made clean” then that would resolve to the backup plan of “purgatory”? what if on dies in ripe old age but is not “made clean” yet based on their works? would that be another one who falls into the “backup plan” of purgatory?

Those in purgatory are saved i.e. going to Heaven–hence “back up plan” a false premise.

See purgatory

 

[Cr8ton]

Those in purgatory are saved i.e. going to Heaven–hence “back up plan” a false premise.

See purgatory

I understand that but are the scenarios in which I posted a situation on which they would goto heaven? Or is that dependant upon other factors (ie. such as going to confession ect.)

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I understand that but are the scenarios in which I posted a situation on which they would goto heaven? Or is that dependant upon other factors (ie. such as going to confession ect.)

Forgive me but could you be more clearer.on that scenarios…

For confession, one must be in mortal sin to need it. To be in mortal sin, that sin must be a grave matter (like murder), have foreknowledge (I know murder is wrong) and consent (I will kill you!!!) If any of these three conditions are not met, the sin isn’t mortal, even if the sin itself is grave.

 

[Cr8ton]

Well my first question is, if Catholics do not believe in Jesus Christ imputing righteousness to us, and they believe its a matter of living your life as you are gradually changed with your cooperative works. Then what would be the state of a Catholic who dies before being “made” righteous? (After all if we aren’t imputed Christ’s righteousness then we would still be “unclean” and therefore could not go to heaven…correct?)

below is my next question which sorta relates…​

Can one be Catholic and yet make the decision to confess their sins with Jesus Christ being their mediator?

Or…

Would someone who is Catholic have to go to confession (before a priest) and confess their sins to be forgiven?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Well my first question is, if Catholics do not believe in Jesus Christ imputing righteousness to us, and they believe its a matter of living your life as you are gradually changed with your cooperative works. Then what would be the state of a Catholic who dies before being “made” righteous? (After all if we aren’t imputed Christ’s righteousness then we would still be “unclean” and therefore could not go to heaven…correct?)

below is my next question which sorta relates…​

Can one be Catholic and yet make the decision to confess their sins with Jesus Christ being their mediator?

Or…

Would someone who is Catholic have to go to confession (before a priest) and confess their sins to be forgiven?

First off, Catholics don’t believe we saved by our works. Graces come from God alone and but it is our choice to cooperate with that grace and do good works. However if you willfully choose mortal sin, then we turn our backs on God and can lose our salvation.

For your questions about confession with a priest see this thread.

I hope I’ve answered your questions. If not, I’ll try to be more clearer.

 

[benedictus2]

So correct me if I’m wrong but if one dies before “made clean” then that would resolve to the backup plan of “purgatory”? what if on dies in ripe old age but is not “made clean” yet based on their works? would that be another one who falls into the “backup plan” of purgatory?

You misunderstand purgatory if you think it is a back up plan. It is not a back up plan.

Purgatory is a necessity since it is rare that someone dies completely free of sin. Purgatory is where the last vestiges of our self love is removed so that we can completely love God.

Our end is Union with God. We cannot be united to God (Deification / Theosis) until we are made holy like Him.

Another misconception is that we are made clean by our works. Our works do not make us clean.

 

[Cr8ton]

You misunderstand purgatory if you think it is a back up plan. It is not a back up plan.

Purgatory is a necessity since it is rare that someone dies completely free of sin. Purgatory is where the last vestiges of our self love is removed so that we can completely love God.

Our end is Union with God. We cannot be united to God (Deification / Theosis) until we are made holy like Him.

Another misconception is that we are made clean by our works. Our works do not make us clean.

What about being made clean by the Lord Jesus Christ who died for our sins?

The only way I see that relating to “our works” is that our works are an evidence that we have justifying faith that grants us eternal life in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, how can someone get the idea of purgatory from scripture than grant it as a part of their doctrine with such little reference in scripture and nowhere clearly stating “purgatory”.

It’s things like these that make me hesitant of accepting extra-biblical things as my physical church that I attend. Although none-the-less I still love my brothers and sisters in Christ and treat them as anyone else regardless of denomination. As far as accepting brothers and sisters in Christ it comes down to our foundational agreements in scripture dealing with the acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ and receiving the Spirit of the Lord into our hearts that unify us and make us One in Christ and part of the Kingdom of God =]

 

[2nd_Adam]

So correct me if I’m wrong but if one dies before “made clean” then that would resolve to the backup plan of “purgatory”? what if on dies in ripe old age but is not “made clean” yet based on their works? would that be another one who falls into the “backup plan” of purgatory?

Protestants don’t have to go to purgatory like our Catholic siblings because we have a pass and go Monopoly card in Jesus . Only Catholics have to go through purgatory because they believe in it, and Protestants do not. Since Paul teaches us that absent from the body is present in the Lord, Protestants go straight to the presence of the Lord after our physical death. That’s one of the benefits of sola scriptura Christians… we skip Purgatory.

 

[ralphinal]

Protestants don’t have to go to purgatory like our Catholic siblings because we have a pass and go Monopoly card in Jesus . Only Catholics have to go through purgatory because they believe in it, and Protestants do not. Since Paul teaches us that absent from the body is present in the Lord, Protestants go straight to the presence of the Lord after our physical death. That’s one of the benefits of sola scriptura Christians… we skip Purgatory.

Purgatory for Protestants will be having to accept that there is one. After that, they will be allowed into heaven

I have a challenge for you: I dare you to prove your take on the Gospel the same way the first Followers of Christ did between 33 and 40 a.d. Show us, according to Jesus ALONE the Calvinistic ideology. If you can do this, you might have a point.

 

[ralphinal]

The answer to that I should have thought was obvious if you knew your scriptures:

Matthew 25:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

As someone said, you can run, but cannot hide.

Z,
Why would you throw that passage at a Calvinist? Don’t you know that Jesus did not mean that we have to DO these things at all?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Purgatory for Protestants will be having to accept that there is one. After that, they will be allowed into heaven

I have a challenge for you: I dare you to prove your take on the Gospel the same way the first Followers of Christ did between 33 and 40 a.d. Show us, according to Jesus ALONE the Calvinistic ideology. If you can do this, you might have a point.

Ex-biblical revelation… my brother? Which Church Fathers can I use, the ones with Catholic theology or the ones with Protesant theology? I’m sure the Church Fathers with a Catholic slant is considered Sacred Tradition, and the Church Fathers’ writings with the Protestant slant is rejected as Sacred Tradition?

Now if we are discussing about the followers who are recorded in Scripture during 33 and 40 a.d., that would be fun too. But the deck would be too stacked to play with you on this issue.

 

[zerinus]

Purgatory for Protestants will be having to accept that there is one. After that, they will be allowed into heaven.

I doubt it. Calvinists are so obstinate that they will never accept that there is a purgatory, even after being in one! They will say, “This is not purgatory; it is just the kind of place I was expecting to go to when I died!” So they are likely to stay there forever.

Z,
Why would you throw that passage at a Calvinist? Don’t you know that Jesus did not mean that we have to DO these things at all?

LOL! Definitely among the goats I would say.

 

[ralphinal]

Ex-biblical revelation… my brother? Which Church Fathers can I use, the ones with Catholic theology or the ones with Protesant theology? I’m sure the Church Fathers with a Catholic slant is considered Sacred Tradition, and the Church Fathers’ writings with the Protestant slant is rejected as Sacred Tradition?

Now if we are discussing about the followers who are recorded in Scripture during 33 and 40 a.d., that would be fun too. But the deck would be too stacked to play with you on this issue.

No, the Deck would not be slanted. What you are doing is basing your faith on St. Paul, not on St. Paul’s understanding of Jesus, which was based on Jesus himself

 

[Cr8ton]

No, the Deck would not be slanted. What you are doing is basing your faith on St. Paul, not on St. Paul’s understanding of Jesus, which was based on Jesus himself

this is a confusing statement .

If your faith is in Jesus Christ and the in errancy of scripture then having faith in St. Paul’s words documented in scripture IS based on Jesus Himself.