Do Catholics know the real Jesus?

[heisenburg]

(3) Indulgences

Simple enough… over simplified, but it gets the concept across…

If Sin is something that offends go, then an indulgence is something that pleases god…

You CANNOT use indulgences to ‘earn’ your way to heaven.

Anyone that ‘charges’ for indulgences is in sin.

Also, the myth that the Catholic Church used and endorsed selling indulgences to build cathedrals is just that, a myth. It is an urban legend that really has no truth. There were mid to low level priests that abused the poor, but they performed a great sin. The Catholic Church as a whole at a Church level NEVER sponsored the selling of indulgences.

There is a grain of truth to it in that there were a few dishonest people, but this was not a Church teaching.

Period…

As a note, why is a church infamous… You call St. Peters Infamous… why is that?

cont()

 

[heisenburg]

At this point I respectfully request that you provide some responses. It does seem to me at least that there has been little response, but only more questions…

If this is not your intent, then please take the time to address some of the concerns we have raised.

It is only fair…

Also, you mention that you know our stuff as well, but as we have mentioned and shown to you, hopefully you will see that at least some of your information is incorrect.

In Any case, i do look forward to your response, and please, offer just that, responses, and not more questions.

In Christ

 

[Mannyfit75]

You guys didn’t scare me off, I’ve just been busy, but can anyone explian to me the role that the pope plays in the catholic church. I don’t see anything in the scriptures that support his authority. Also I am not a protestant.
You see the catholics have two kinds of doctrine: proxima fidi and di fidi.

Proxima fidi is a nonessential one that can be changed. Why? Well, for example, it used to be that only priest can touch the waffer with two fingers, but now others can do so.

As a Catholic, I never heard the term proxima fidi and di fidi. I find it odd that a Non-Catholic Christian like yourself have taken time to lecture us Catholics what doctrines we have.

Di fidi cannot be changed correct?

Why is it that biblical christianity has no problem with martial love but the catholic church does. For example, for centuries the catholic church had rules that if you were married you could not have sexual relations on fridays because Jesus had been crucified on fridays nor on sundays because He rose on sundays and so on and so on until only thursdays and tuesdays was permissionable unless it was not the Feast of Saint Bridget or something like that.You guys always have this kind of hung up.

**Wow, you actually believe that for centuries the Catholic Church have rules that if you were married you could have sexual relations on Friday? Cite your source.

The Catholic Church have always hold firm that sexual intercourse between a man and woman is between married individual (man and woman).

Second on Good Friday, the norm of Catholic tradition was abstaining from foods and drinks. There use to be a time when the laity have Pentential Service on Friday. This was not abolished by the Second Vatican Council. A local archdiocese could still impose these penitential service. **

So as a result of this kind of oppression, you guys wound up the very same thing Paul warned aginst. Paul said that it is better to marry than to burn with passion: if someone has grace to be single they will not burn with passion right? They will not need a spouse; and some people do have that grace, but if you are not amoung them, you should not pretend you are. If you do not have the grace, and try to force it upon yourself, you will end up in some kind of sin. Catholism is a prime example of this.

**Where does Scripture say that celibacy is a sin? Second, I see no where in Scripture where St. Paul condemned celibacy.

Consider these Biblical passages and lastly, the Church has not forbidden marriage period. There are married ordain priest in the Eastern Rite Churches and there are married ordained priest in the Latin Rite due to the Pastoral Provision. Get your facts straight before you make ridiculous assumptions.

The Catholic Church has no problem with marriage period. In fact, in the Catholic Church marriage is elevated as a Sacrament. It is sacred. How does your church view marriage?

Celibacy not condemned in Scripture.

Eph 5:21-33 - marriage is good: holy symbol of Christ & church
Mt 19:12 - celibacy praised by Jesus, who was chaste
Jer 16:1-4 - Jeremiah told not to take wife & have children
1Cor 7:8 - St. Paul was celibate
1Cor 7:32-35 - celibacy recommended for full-time ministers
2Tim 2:3-4 - no soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits
1Tim 5:9-12 - pledge of celibacy taken by older widows **

((continue))

 

[FCEGM]

You guys didn’t scare me off, I’ve just been busy, but can anyone explian to me the role that the pope plays in the catholic church. I don’t see anything in the scriptures that support his authority. Also I am not a protestant.
You see the catholics have two kinds of doctrine: proxima fidi and di fidi.
. . . .
Alex

Alex, since you have not yet responded to any of our posts to you, but instead keep coming back with accusations, veiled and un-veiled, perhaps you could at least tell us if we may expect a direct response to any of the posts here - and not via IMs. There is no sense in responding to you further unless you show you are truly interested in discussion and not just a one-man monologue.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Remember Jesus died for our sins on the cross; He takes away our guilt, because His blood removes all sin. Every perversion of the Gospel will deny the sufficiency of the cross some kind of way. Why must we staple things to the cross?

**Brother,

We, Catholics, already know that Jesus died for our sins. Don’t you think we know that already? In fact the Catholic Church affirms everything that Jesus has taught. Jesus himself established the Catholic Church. He gave us the Seven Sacraments. It is his Sacraments. The priests and bishops are only instructment of God’s good work, so God’s grace can move through his sacraments.**

Do you catholics have a guilt complex? I’m just wondering? I’m asking in a honest and loving way that catholics have a guilt-ridden complex, and it drives you guys to do all kinds of things. Have you been to guys been to Rome? Have you seen the Scala Sancta? Where little old ladies climbing a flight of stairs on there knees in the cold, trying to say the rosary in order to get themselves or a family member out of pergatory, guilt drives them.

We, Catholics do have a guilt conscious when we sin against our God. Thankfully, God has given us the Sacrament of Reconciliation, where we Catholics can received the mercy of God at work. In this Sacrament our sins are forgiven by God through his priest who act in the Person of Christ, or Persona Christi.

The doctrine of Pergatory was in fact around since the early church, and it was probably gaining alot of momentum during the forth and fifth centuries. Purgatory was really propagated, but during the Renaissance the catholic church needed money to build the cathedrals such as in infamous St. Peter’s. The Dominicans were the indulgence merchants as well as the Inquisitors. The catholics so called Saint Dominic said that because Eve was made from Adams’s rib and the rib was crooked, then women are crooked and prone to witchcraft. History tells us this. Din’t the Dominican drive nails through the women’s touges, didn’t they also do tortures with boiling water? But you guys call this man a saint?

**Untrue. Your statement are false. The doctrine of the Purgatory have always predate Christianity. In 2 Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin. This predate Christianity. In fact the Jewish prayer of the dead, Mourner’s Kaddish based its prayer for praying for the dead so they can be loss from there sins. 1 Cor 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire. Purgatory is more a state than a place.

2 Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus. 1 Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead.

I believe the Letter of Paul to the Philippians is even more explicit concerning a third place other than heaven and hell.

Philippians 2:5-11:**
Have this mind among yourselves, which was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God did not count equality with God a thing to be graped, but emptied himself taking a form of a servant being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore, God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every other name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in the heaven and on the earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So my friend. What is this under the earth? It isn’t hell because Jesus isn’t worship there. It is only a third place. It could be purgatory.

 

[daeve]

Most of this has been pretty much over my head, but could we go back to the no sex on Friday and Sunday?

I’ve been Catholic since the day I was born, Catholic education through college, married in the Catholic Church.

I’ve never heard anything like this at all. Is there any basis for these statements or is it just whistling Dixie?

 

[rpp]

Most of this has been pretty much over my head, but could we go back to the no sex on Friday and Sunday?

I’ve been Catholic since the day I was born, Catholic education through college, married in the Catholic Church.

I’ve never heard anything like this at all. Is there any basis for these statements or is it just whistling Dixie?

It may be based on the discipline of of married priests refraining from marital relations the day before they said Mass on a Sunday or solemnity. This is still in force in some Orthodox or Easter rites, I think. Does not apply to the Latin rite as the current discipline does not permit priests to marry.

It may also be based on some Jansenist ideas and/or the writings of the over-scrupulous.

 

[jmcrae]

Most of this has been pretty much over my head, but could we go back to the no sex on Friday and Sunday?

I’ve been Catholic since the day I was born, Catholic education through college, married in the Catholic Church.

I’ve never heard anything like this at all. Is there any basis for these statements or is it just whistling Dixie?

I have no idea where he came up with that.

In any case, how would the Church ever enforce such a thing? (And what if one’s fertile opportunity occurs on a Sunday or a Friday, and one is wanting to raise up children to the Lord? Just hope that the next one occurs on a more “proper” day of the week?)

 

[Mannyfit75]

For you really prideful, knowledgable Catholics, here is some history for ya.

Remember Tetzel? He was a Dominican indulgence merchant. He said the following: " When into the coffer a coin rings, From purgatory a soul springs" Catholics used the idea of people’s loved ones suffering in purgatory, only to be released if some good catholic would purchase enough indulgences on thier behalf, a good and cleaver way to manipulate people into spending money. Catholics capitalize on people’s guilt in order to expliot them.

**
None of us are prideful but based on your background, I find that you completely misunderstood Catholic doctrine; despite the fact that you claimed you studied Catholicism. You could study Catholicism by looking reading bias Catholic materials and misinterpreting Catholic documents.

Second, I like to add the sell of indulgence was never permitted in the Catholic Church. This is consider simony, an ancient Christian heresy that had Simon the Magican who thought he could gain God’s power through monetary gain.

There were so called religious priests in the medieval ages that abuses this despit the Church’s objection. It was not until the Council of Trent, that the selling of induglence was condemned.

Second, indulgence does not involve the removal of a relative out of Purgatory. That is a lie. Indulgence is the removal of temporaral punishment due to sin. The Church has this authority under Matthew 16:18 where Jesus granted Peter to bind and loose as well as in Matthew 18:18, where Jesus grant the apostle to bind and loose.

Let’s get back to temporal punishment due to sin. When you commit sin and confess it, your sins are forgiven but the punishment for that sin remains. A good example of this is from 2Sam 12:13-14, where David’s sin was forgiven but his punishment was not. He committed the sin of adultery and had a wife’s husband killed. God has forgiven him, but punished him by having the baby die.**

 

[Mannyfit75]

I have read up and studied catholism, studied the cannon, have all the Roman doctrines concerning the church. I want to see you guys saved, God called me to reach to Catholics, I will be going to Rome on a mission trip and I will live there and spread God’s loving message.Thats my calling. Listen; saying a thousand prayers will not give you guys rest. Jesus is the sabbath, He is our Rest. It’s already done. I love you guys so much. You just have the wrong Jesus. I’m not here to expose the Pope, he’s done that himself and God will also do that. Many so called bible believing pastors have given in to sin. All have fallen short to the glory of God. But we are called to be bureans, to study and show ourselves approved, to who? God of course. I ask you guys and every type of christian sect, Are we studying? If we are truly in His Word and not listening to others, being tossed to and fro, from one doctrine to another, God will show us.

I admire your zeal but you have a distorted view of Catholic belief. You are going on your own assumptions and interpretation on Catholic doctrines, Code of Canon of Law, Church documents and so forth. I don’t hold you any credit because for one. You aren’t Catholic and you probably don’t hold any degree from a well respected Catholic university with a doctorate on theology and Sacred Scripture. I would have to say a doctorate on Sacred Scripture is rather difficult for those who want to persue it because the individual have to learn the ancient language of Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Latin. Biblical scholars who held these degrees actually read copies of the Greek or Koine copies of the Scripture. I find them to be extremely well know in their study.

I would also like to add that we Catholics have the fullness of Truth. Jesus established One single Church and it exist today as the Catholic Church and Pope as the successor of St. Peter. The gates of hell shall not prevail against this Church, and we don’t buy into your Protestant Christian propaganda. **

I thank everyone here that has spoken in this thread. I love the practice and I see alot of you guys know your stuff. I also know your stuff. But lets truly know His stuff.

I am open to questions you guys have concerning my faith aswell. Ask me some and I’ll be glad to answer.

In Jesus,
Alex

**Alex,

It is apparent, you don’t know our stuff. Your post express that completely. You have a distort the facts of the Catholic faith. You exchange the truth for lie. That is very deceiving…**

 

[JehuandGod]

Hey Mannyfit, I need no authority but God’s to show truth, .Did anything I say in my last reply upset you? Is it not true? and can you mention these things I mentioned about the catholic histroy rather than attacking my love for seeing you saved, I see plenty of people here giving me grace for stepping up and sharing.
So lets stick to the facts. Expian a reason for the facts mentioned earlier.

Alex

 

[YADA]

Daeve,

I believe that his no sex on Fridays stems from ignorance of what it means to ‘abstain’ …

The tradition of abstaining from meat on Fridays [pre-Vatican II] and the fridays of Lent [post Vatican II]… are admirable disciplines … and being a disciplined Christian is a Good thing … In fact being disciplined is good for everyone … as a former Marine, I can attest to the necessity of discipline …

Many people believe that ‘abstainance’ only refers to sexual activity … not any other activity… but alas we [catholics] know that it is possible to abstain from any activity … Monday Night Football, drinking alcohol, eating liver [yuck! - this is my personal favorite thing to 'abstain from! ], work, etc…really any activity can be abstained from …

Te OP is not here to learn or to dialogue with us … He is purely here to enlighten us as and ‘lead us to Jesus’ …

Also, in one of his posts - I remember a claim to being a ‘burean’ … like his mis-spelling of the apocrapha … I believe he is a Berean … the reference to Acts that he uses is usually found in thier sites … they are anit-catholic and even anti-protestant…

you can goggle them and there are many sites … here is one link thebereans.net/

this should help you understand where this person is coming from …

And to the OP if I am wrong about your ‘origins’ please respond to the many posts that have asked you about your faith position … this is just what I have deduced from reading your mis-informed error riddled posts regarding the Christian faith that is practiced by catholics rom the time Jesus instituted the Chruch to the present time …

 

[sodak]

Hey Mannyfit, I need no authority but God’s to show truth, .Did anything I say in my last reply upset you? Is it not true? and can you mention these things I mentioned about the catholic histroy rather than attacking my love for seeing you saved, I see plenty of people here giving me grace for stepping up and sharing.
So lets stick to the facts. Expian a reason for the facts mentioned earlier.

Alex

I’m not giving you any grace at all, exclude me from that group. You are starting to show your true self. You’re not engaging in any conversations, and you’re not answering any questions. You’re slinging a bunch of anti Catholic lies at us instead.

I know who’s side you are on. I’m shaking the dust of this thread off my (virtual) sandals.

 

[pete_29]

JehuandGod,

    You have saved me. I now know for certain which is the true Church. It is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Thank you Thank you Thank you :thumbsup:


 Thanks to everyone. I always learn something about the Catholic Church in threads like this.:)

 

[JehuandGod]

I’m sorry if I haven’t answered questions, theres too many folks so PM instead, plz, I’ll answer every single one. Sorry.

Alex

 

[jmcrae]

I’m sorry if I haven’t answered questions, theres too many folks so PM instead, plz, I’ll answer every single one. Sorry.

Alex

Pick the ones you want to answer, and answer them in public, please - this is a public forum.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hey Mannyfit, I need no authority but God’s to show truth, .Did anything I say in my last reply upset you? Is it not true? and can you mention these things I mentioned about the catholic histroy rather than attacking my love for seeing you saved, I see plenty of people here giving me grace for stepping up and sharing.
So lets stick to the facts. Expian a reason for the facts mentioned earlier.

Alex

**Your last reply was rather weak and it contains distorted views of the Catholic faith. I know the facts and the truth of the Catholic faith.

My faith is founded on Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ gave his authority to his Apostles and Peter was the Prince of the Apostle because Jesus gave Peter the keys of his Kingdom.

I am saved! I received the Body and Blood of the Lord at every opportunity I have when I go to Daily Mass and on Sunday. To leave my faith as a Catholic would cut off my full communion with the Ancient Catholic Church.

We Catholics have a much deeper intimate relationship with Jesus Christ because we consumed him by eating his flesh and drinking his blood. He remains in us and we in him. In the Catholic Mass, we enter into the Wedding Feast of the Lamb just like Revelation 19:9 states, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.”

In John 6:53-66, Jesus told us that we must eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood. This is literal. His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity is truly present.

We know this to be true because John the Baptist called Jesus, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.”

In Paschal Mystery, or Passover sacrifice. The male lamb was to be cooked and eaten. The lamb was to be pure and without blemish, and not broken bone was to be in him. This is a prefigure of the Jesus’ sacrifice at the cross and the Eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass, which makes presence the sacrifice of the cross in the unbloody manner. His sacrifice on the cross is once and for all. That only happens once.

We Catholics believe this. The Early Christians believe this. The Eastern Orthodox believes the real presence and the sacrifice of the Mass or Divine Liturgy. This is ancient. Do you want to take away Jesus from us? Because it is apparent you want us to leave our Church to join yours? I don’t think so.

I love Jesus! I love Jesus Christ that I would die for him and suffer and bear my cross. I would never deprive myself of receiving him more intimately than having him come to me in the Mass. In the Mass, heaven comes down to us. **

 

[LilyM]

Hey Mannyfit, I need no authority but God’s to show truth, .Did anything I say in my last reply upset you? Is it not true? and can you mention these things I mentioned about the catholic histroy rather than attacking my love for seeing you saved, I see plenty of people here giving me grace for stepping up and sharing.
So lets stick to the facts. Expian a reason for the facts mentioned earlier.

Alex

Is that why Jesus gave all His authority to the Apostles when He said ‘just as the Father sent Me, so I send you’??? When He said to them ‘who rejects you rejects Me’? Or ‘what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven’?

Look at the thousands of Protestant denominations, each disagreeing with the next, and you’ll see how close to His Truth ‘no authority’ gets you - nowhere near. It is the CHURCH - that which existed in Paul’s time that is, as the letter to Timothy says, the pillar and bulwark of truth. You and your denomination have no hope of tracing a lineage back to St Paul, it’s apparent that Church is NOT you or your denomination.

There is ONE truth, as He is One and He prayed for US to be one, not many. That truth has been preserved by Apostolic succession and laying on of hands from the Apostles to their successors and onwards, which only the Catholic and Orthodox churches have, not you or yours.

As He promised the church founded upon the Apostles would survive even the gates of Hell - where WAS that Church for thousands of years before you or your founder came along? You’re saying that Christ failed in His promise and the gates of Hell DID prevail all that time.

If you think whoever founded your denomination (at some point in the last 500 years, more likely the last 200) is an authority, or that you yourself, born yesterday, are any authority, then you are sadly mistaken my brother.

Prayers for you.

 

[rpp]

I’m sorry if I haven’t answered questions, theres too many folks so PM instead, plz, I’ll answer every single one. Sorry.

Alex

Pick the ones you want to answer, and answer them in public, please - this is a public forum.

Yes, JaG, you do not have to answer everyone. You asked questions publicly, answers were given publicly, to suddenly insist on privacy does not seem consistent.

Pick a couple of people, like Mannyfit75, and answer them directly.

However, we encourage you to provide links to websites that can back up your claims.

 

[dmelosi]

Yes, JaG, you do not have to answer everyone. You asked questions publicly, answers were given publicly, to suddenly insist on privacy does not seem consistent.

Pick a couple of people, like Mannyfit75, and answer them directly.

However, we encourage you to provide links to websites that can back up your claims.

While talking about links, I suggest that the OP take a look at www.catholicculture.org/reviews
They have a pretty good list of websites that really stray from the Catholic Church’s true teachings. I can see that perhaps without knowing it, the OP could be getting his info from one of those that claim to be Catholic but are displaying untrue teachings.

I have run into more than one person while discussing faiths that take their Catholic info from one of the poorly rated sites.

It is safe to say that if you want to know the true teachings you can find them at the home page at www.catholic.com